1331 réponses à ce sujet

[DeinonSlayer]

Geth seem pretty reasonable in the memories and when speaking to Legion. I think something really horrible happened during the Morning War to make them isolationist.

Seems to me the Morning War was simply the start of their "no organics" policy. "Kill any organics on sight" wasn't something that started only after the war; it was a continuation of what they did during the war.

"Cleanup crews. The Geth never learned to take survivors." (subtitle file)

Try surrendering to that. You'd have about as much success as you would surrendering to the rachni on Noveria.

[Comrade Wakizashi]

You can't really blame the geth for not trusting organics. To be honest, pretty much every organic species in the galaxy have been trying to kill them  ever since the Morning War. The geth are really not that much of a threat to anyone. As long as you stay out of their territory, you'll be safe. Note that I'm talking about the true geth, not the heretics of course.

[DeinonSlayer]

You can't really blame the geth for not trusting organics. To be honest, pretty much every organic species in the galaxy have been trying to kill them  ever since the Morning War. The geth are really not that much of a threat to anyone. As long as you stay out of their territory, you'll be safe. Note that I'm talking about the true geth, not the heretics of course.

Nobody has lifted a hand against them since the Morning War. A fleet was rallied in case the Geth were preparing to invade beyond the borders of former Quarian space, but when it became clear no invasion was imminent, the blockade was scaled back until only a few sentries remained to monitor for Geth activity. They killed every emissary the organic races sent to them and ignored all hails for centuries afterwards, and made no attempt to stop or dissociate themselves from the heretics for over two years.

But yeah, I agree the Council ban on artificial intelligence was probably a big part of the problem.

[Deathsaurer]

To be honest, pretty much every organic species in the galaxy have been trying to kill them  ever since the Morning War.

Wha? How do you conclude that? The Council telling the Quarians to not provoke them?

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Geth seem pretty reasonable in the memories and when speaking to Legion. I think something really horrible happened during the Morning War to make them isolationist.

 

The Quarians tried to deactivate us. The Quarians are organics. Therefore all organics will try to deactivate us. Other all other species in the galaxy are organics. Deactivation of the Quarians was successful. Shall we isolate ourselves? .... We have reached consensus. Yes. What shall we do with organics who enter our space? .... We have reached consensus. We shall deactivate them.

 

If we look at it from another point of view, the Quarians created the Geth. They were intelligent machines. They started behaving like they weren't designed to behave. The Quarians gambled that they could shut them down, and they lost. 

 

My guess is that the number of Quarians who sided with the Geth were a small minority, and that the number of their own actually killed by the Quarians were very few. Protests about killing their own people would have sprung up very quickly. Yet people extrapolate that the Quarian government acted like butchers from Legion's clip. We give these things ominous names like massacres.

 

For example: The Boston Massacre - 1770: sounds ominous like hundreds died. Five men were killed and six others were injured. Two of the six others died later of their injuries. It was more of a massacre of justice. Eight soldiers, one officer, and four civilians were arrested and charged with murder. Defended by the lawyer and future American President, John Adams, six of the soldiers were acquitted, while the other two were convicted of manslaughter and given reduced sentences. The men found guilty of manslaughter were sentenced to branding on their hand.

[Farangbaa]

Seems to me the Morning War was simply the start of their "no organics" policy. "Kill any organics on sight" wasn't something that started only after the war; it was a continuation of what they did during the war.

"Cleanup crews. The Geth never learned to take survivors." (subtitle file)

Try surrendering to that. You'd have about as much success as you would surrendering to the rachni on Noveria.

 

Again, this is why the Catalyst's problem is a real thing in the MEU. It's a small step from 'our creators want to kill us/are a threat to us' to 'all organics want to kill us/are a threat to us'

 

Does anybody know why the ban on AI was in place to begin with? This was prior to the Geth, obviously.

[DeinonSlayer]

Again, this is why the Catalyst's problem is a real thing in the MEU. It's a small step from 'our creators want to kill us/are a threat to us' to 'all organics want to kill us/are a threat to us'

Does anybody know why the ban on AI was in place to begin with? This was prior to the Geth, obviously.

Basically for the same reasons Starjar gives us.

Mass Effect: Revelation, chapter eight:

Experts from nearly every species predicted that true artificial intelligence — such as a synthetic neural network with the ability to absorb and critically analyze knowledge — would grow exponentially the instant it learned to learn. It would teach itself; quickly surpassing the capabilities of its organic creators and growing beyond their control. Every single species in the galaxy relied on computers that were linked into the vast data network of the extranet for transport, trade, defense, and basic survival. If a rogue AI program was somehow able to access and influence those data networks, the results would be catastrophic.
Conventional theory held that the doomsday scenario wasn’t merely possible, it was unavoidable. According to the Council, the emergence of an artificial intelligence was the single greatest threat to organic life in the galaxy. And there was evidence to support their position. [...]

They created the ban because they anticipated the kind of "technological apocalypse" Gavin Archer warns about. People recognized what the Geth would be capable of doing; ironically, their efforts to prevent them from doing it were what spurred them to do it.

[Farangbaa]

And then people say the Catalyst poses a completely new problem in the MEU.

 

I think a lol is at place here.

[DeinonSlayer]

And then people say the Catalyst poses a completely new problem in the MEU.

I think a lol is at place here.

Honestly, if they wanted people to take the problem seriously, they should have emphasized the Quarian death rate in the morning war instead of effectively burying it in an attempt to make the Geth more sympathetic. The word "billions" doesn't appear in dialogue a single time after ME1.

[von uber]

Legion in me2 undermines the catalyst as it shows that the geth are willing to compromise with organics and are willing to remove their own rebels to do so.
In me3 it goes even further by having them be shown in an even more positive light and wanting to be like organics.
Only in me1 are they overtly hostile (and crucially non-interactive, like reaper forces).

[Obadiah]

Seems to me the Morning War was simply the start of their "no organics" policy. "Kill any organics on sight" wasn't something that started only after the war; it was a continuation of what they did during the war.

"Cleanup crews. The Geth never learned to take survivors." (subtitle file)

Try surrendering to that. You'd have about as much success as you would surrendering to the rachni on Noveria.

...and yet, if the Quarians do stand down, they won't be killed and peace is achieved, as we all know.

[Obadiah]

The Quarians tried to deactivate us. The Quarians are organics. Therefore all organics will try to deactivate us. Other all other species in the galaxy are organics. Deactivation of the Quarians was successful. Shall we isolate ourselves? .... We have reached consensus. Yes. What shall we do with organics who enter our space? .... We have reached consensus. We shall deactivate them.
...

See, it doesn't really hold up when the Geth were surrendering originally to save the Quarian sympathizers. The Consensus knows that not all organics are the same. If "all organics will try to deactivate us" why let the Quarians escape (and the memories clearly show that the Geth decided to let the Quarians escape). That means that absolute security in their own survival was not their goal.

[78stonewobble]

And the Quarian government's intention was to shut down what they saw as malfunctioning machines before they could gain sentience, in compliance with Council law.

I'm sure you'll say this was still genocide. IMO, you'd be correct to. It's also exactly what the Geth did in return. Some will try to argue the Geth didn't know what they were doing either, but the argument can be made from the VI's commentary that they knew exactly what they were doing and simply didn't give a damn who (or how many) they killed. If the Quarians didn't have spaceflight, they would be completely extinct.

An extermination doesn't have to be 100% to be considered genocide. Heck, in ME3 if you side with the Quarians, they don't even succeed 100% - there's a second Geth fleet (mentioned as lying in wait to flank them in the codex entry you get if you side with the Geth instead) which otherwise escapes.

 

Genocide: the deliberate and systematic destruction of a racial, political, or cultural group. 

 

In this discussion expanded to include intelligent alien species. 

 

This definition means the following:

A: That the Quarians tried to commit genocide on the Geth. Their intention was to destroy all geth. That they failed or how ineffecient they were are irrelevent. 

B: That the Geth did not try to commit genocide on the Quarians. How efficient they were at defending themselves are irreleant. It is stated numerous times that they did not intent to make their creators extinct, again evidenced by them not following the quarians and finishing them off. 

C: That, if all the Quarians want in the second war was to retake their homeworld, then it is not an attempt at genocide. It's a war like so many others for territory and "location location location". 

 

For something to be a genocide or attempt at genocide it requires the specific intent of the complete destruction of a grouping, in addition to scale and efficiency at it. 

[Farangbaa]

Legion in me2 undermines the catalyst as it shows that the geth are willing to compromise with organics and are willing to remove their own rebels to do so.
In me3 it goes even further by having them be shown in an even more positive light and wanting to be like organics.
Only in me1 are they overtly hostile (and crucially non-interactive, like reaper forces).

 

No he doesn't. 99% of the Quarians died and 300 years passed before they decided to talk. It already happened, unintentionally even. The problem the Catalyst stipulates is that the creators will try to dominate the created, and the created will rebel.

 

It takes Space Jesus' intervention to stop this. Until Space Jesus yells the Quarians down the Quarians are still trying to dominate their creations. Without Space Jesus one or the other will be completely destroyed. The peace that follows is new and barely worth mentioning. Lasting peace is only possible if you pick Control or Synthesis.

 

p.s. note that problem lies with organics.

[DeinonSlayer]

...and yet, if the Quarians do stand down, they won't be killed and peace is achieved, as we all know.

Uh, no. Geth VI kills them off at the first opportunity. Legion represents a shift in thinking which only applies to the last six months, if and only if he returns alive to the Consensus after the suicide mission.

For the last three centuries, the Geth killed any organics they encountered on sight and ignored all communications. They wouldn't have even acknowledged attempts to surrender during the Morning War once they made that mental switch.

Another line from that subtitle file: "Wrong answer. I was giving the Geth a chance for life, not to commit genocide."

@78wobblestone
I advise carefully re-reading the post you quoted. They tried to shut them down before their household appliances achieved sentience (which would not be genocide), but the Geth had already done so by the time they made the attempt.

The only reason the Geth did not render their creators extinct was because they couldn't anticipate the consequences (for themselves) of doing so. It wasn't mercy. They hesitated long enough for the survivors to escape.

[Obadiah]

@DeinonSlayer
Legion is one collective set of the programs of the Consensus. You don't know that the Geth VI would have a different effect to Legion. The difference between the two is ~3 years of experience out of ~300 perhaps, with copies of Legion's memories. Given their minor differences, a different outcome should the Quarians have stood down is highly unlikely.

[DeinonSlayer]

@DeinonSlayerLegion is one collective set of the programs of the Consensus. You don't know that the Geth VI would have a different effect to Legion. The difference between the two is ~3 years of experience out of ~300 perhaps, with copies of Legion's memories. Given their minor differences, a different outcome should the Quarians have stood down is highly unlikely.

I do know, because it does. The VI has no memories from outside the Veil. Its last interaction with organics that didn't involve gunfire was centuries ago (instead of "honoring" them, it shrugs off the sympathizers who died defending Geth as of no significance). As EDI puts it, it lacked the capacity to make attachments to prevent it from devaluing the worth of organic lives.

Geth VI on exterminating the Quarians: "Why not? Our fleet is massive. We can support Shepard's fight against the old machines... if the creators no longer threaten us."

Legion on exterminating the Quarians: "Do you remember the question that started the Morning War, Tali'Zorah? Does this unit have a soul?"

Legion expresses regret at the prospect of killing them off. The VI is eager to finish it. If Shepard got the Quarians to stand down with the VI in place of Legion, I have no doubt the VI would kill them anyway. This is the entity who wiped out every last Quarian in the Perseus Veil and spent the last three centuries killing organics on sight without bothering to ascertain armament or intent.

Modifié par DeinonSlayer, 31 mai 2014 - 10:25 .

[78stonewobble]

@78wobblestone
I advise carefully re-reading the post you quoted. They tried to shut them down before their household appliances achieved sentience (which would not be genocide), but the Geth had already done so by the time they made the attempt.

The only reason the Geth did not render their creators extinct was because they couldn't anticipate the consequences (for themselves) of doing so. It wasn't mercy. They hesitated long enough for the survivors to escape.

 

You are incorrect again. The Quarians tried to shut down the Geth before they acquired "full sentience" or all of them gained sentience. They only decided to attempt this after a geth had shown signs of sentience (actually it pretty obviously is sentient at this point).

 

So we're back at attempted genocide on a sentient species.

 

Internal rationalisations like mercy are irrelevant for the definition of genocide.

 

You are again conveniently forgetting or ignoring the fact that the geth, at any point, could have wiped out the majority of remaining quarians. That they choose not to do so, is proof positive, that, for whatever reason that makes sense to geth, that they did not intend the complete destruction of the quarians. 

[DeinonSlayer]

You are incorrect again. The Quarians tried to shut down the Geth before they acquired "full sentience" or all of them gained sentience. They only decided to attempt this after a geth had shown signs of sentience (actually it pretty obviously is sentient at this point).

 

So we're back at attempted genocide on a sentient species.

 

Internal rationalisations like mercy are irrelevant for the definition of genocide.

 

You are again conveniently forgetting or ignoring the fact that the geth, at any point, could have wiped out the majority of remaining quarians. That they choose not to do so, is proof positive, that, for whatever reason that makes sense to geth, that they did not intend the complete destruction of the quarians. 

Oh, they could have wiped out the majority of the remaining 1% that they didn't wipe out? How graceful of them. I've never understood this idea that the Geth should be lauded because, after exterminating the rest of the species, they couldn't make up their minds on whether to rub out the last fleeing refugees fast enough to actually do so.

 

You can pretend and rationalize all you want. Both sides are guilty of this. I've never pretended the Quarians aren't, even if they had good reason to try and didn't think they were actually doing it in the beginning.

 

You're arguing that the Geth aren't guilty of genocide because they didn't actively comb the Terminus for stragglers (we know the Quarians had a presence beyond the Veil; they had a Citadel embassy). If the Quarians had simply deactivated enough Geth to reduce them back to the non-sapient appliances they were before, but didn't erase them entirely, by your same definition they would not be guilty of genocide.

 

EDIT: Note this is once again assuming we can believe anything we're shown in the Consensus to begin with.

[Obadiah]

I do know, because it does. The VI has no memories from outside the Veil. Its last interaction with organics that didn't involve gunfire was centuries ago (instead of "honoring" them, it shrugs off the sympathizers who died defending Geth as of no significance).
...

No, you don't know. The Geth VI is not "eager", its just less emotional about what it has to say, and the Quarians could just as easily not "threaten" the Geth by pulling back when they have the chance instead of attacking, or declaring that they're no longer officially at war with the Geth. The Geth VI doesn't shrug off the Quarians killed, its a machine, it just gives the facts, "the few creators that attempted mediation failed."
 

...
This is the entity who wiped out every last Quarian in the Perseus Veil and
...

Though you seem uninterested in why that would happen after that entity repeatedly did not attack, allowed itself to be damaged by the Quarians, and allowed the Quarians to escape, I am very curious, and I do not think that action during the Morning War defines them or that conflict.
 

...
spent the last three centuries killing organics on sight without bothering to ascertain armament or intent.
...

Maybe because AI are illegal in Council space, so they assume all contact is a threat? That's not exactly an unheard of or even unwise policy. And again... how many ships or people would that REALLY be? Because I can't really see anyone sending more than 1 manned ship, and losing it, before resorting to cheap and strictly unmanned probes.

[DeinonSlayer]

No, you don't know. The Geth VI is not "eager", its just less emotional about what it has to say, and the Quarians could just as easily not "threaten" the Geth by pulling back when they have the chance instead of attacking, or declaring that they're no longer officially at war with the Geth. The Geth VI doesn't shrug off the Quarians killed, its a machine, it just gives the facts, "the few creators that attempted mediation failed."

Legion: "We regret the deaths of the creators, but we see no alternative. 40%."
VI: "You started this war. We will end it. 40%."

Oh, sure. Tell the Quarians to stand down. The VI won't slaughter them or anything once it hits 100%. Right.

Shepard: "Wrong answer. I was giving the Geth a chance for life, not to commit genocide."

The difference between Legion and the VI is that Legion has learned the value of organic life. The VI couldn't give a damn.
 

Though you seem uninterested in why that would happen after that entity repeatedly did not attack, allowed itself to be damaged by the Quarians, and allowed the Quarians to escape, I am very curious, and I do not think that action during the Morning War defines them or that conflict.

Hook, line, pier.

This is turning into a battle of the headcanons.
 

Maybe because AI are illegal in Council space, so they assume all contact is a threat? That's not exactly an unheard of or even unwise policy. And again... how many ships or people would that REALLY be? Because I can't really see anyone sending more than 1 manned ship, and losing it, before resorting to cheap and strictly unmanned probes.

There is nothing here which I have not addressed before, either here or in past threads discussing this same subject with you.

[Deathsaurer]

Though you seem uninterested in why that would happen after that entity repeatedly did not attack, allowed itself to be damaged by the Quarians, and allowed the Quarians to escape, I am very curious, and I do not think that action during the Morning War defines them or that conflict.
 
 

It also willingly sided with the Reapers when they had no other allies to call upon. Seriously there is a reason peace is only possible with Tali and Legion alive. The VI is doing exactly what the Geth did in the Morning War. Remove a threat the most efficient way possible, destroy it. It's taken the Geth 300 years, a very special platform, and Shepard to see other alternatives. I don't fault them for it. It isn't exactly a welcoming galaxy. But you can't pretend they didn't do very bad things in the past.

[78stonewobble]

Oh, they could have wiped out the majority of the remaining 1% that they didn't wipe out? How graceful of them. I've never understood this idea that the Geth should be lauded because, after exterminating the rest of the species, they couldn't make up their minds on whether to rub out the last fleeing refugees fast enough to actually do so.

 

You can pretend and rationalize all you want. Both sides are guilty of this. I've never pretended the Quarians aren't, even if they had good reason to try and didn't think they were actually doing it in the beginning.

 

You're arguing that the Geth aren't guilty of genocide because they didn't actively comb the Terminus for stragglers (we know the Quarians had a presence beyond the Veil; they had a Citadel embassy). If the Quarians had simply deactivated enough Geth to reduce them back to the non-sapient appliances they were before, but didn't erase them entirely, by your same definition they would not be guilty of genocide.

 

Obvious sarcastic percentage reference in an attempt to elicit a sympathetical emotionally favorable response... is well... obvious. 

 

 

Percentages and numbers are irrelevant for what constitutes good/evil.

 

Ie. if you drive or just live in a somewhat industrialised nation, you are partially responsible for millions of deaths by pollution. That does not make people evil mass murderers, they're at most ignorants. 

 

Intent matters: 

 

It's murder, if I kill someone for his wallet and it's still murder if I kill a billion people for their wallets. 

 

It's selfdefence, if I kill someone attempting to kill me and it's still selfdefence, if I kill a billion people attempting to kill me. 

 

 

It's called thinking, not feeling. The ability to produce a rational argument, is what makes us more than biological machines. When it happens we are more like sentient beings and less slaves to our biological imperatives/programming in the form of emotions.

 

 

No, you are incorrect again. 

 

In that scenario, the quarians would still have begun deactivating geth, while they are sentient, with the intent of destroying or put in another way, make the sentient geth cease to exist. 

 

Meaning they are doing the "killing" on an intelligent species, with the intent to destroy that intelligent species. It's still genocide. 

 

 

 

I'm arguing that the geth isn't guilty at genocide, because they, for whatever reason, did not wish every quarian dead. Thus not qualifying for the definition of genocide.

 

I have too little information on the conduct of the morning war, which presumably contained quite a few warcrimes (as defined by us) committed by both sides, to make a firm conclusion as to whether one species is more evil than the other. 

 

What I do know, is that during the morning war, the quarians attempted genocide and the geth did not. 

 

This partial fact, puts my preliminary sympathy on the side of the geth in the morning war. 

 

In me3, if I let the geth wipe out the quarians, the geth are once again defending themselves. My sympathy would be firmly on the quarian side, we're it not for the heavy handed writing (arming every quarian ship, not having any surrender and not really giving shepard an equal interrupt for saving people). 

 

But I digress... My point is that I don't think that any evidence presented so far makes an argument that one or the other race is evil and thus deserves extinction. 

[Obadiah]

...
The difference between Legion and the VI is that Legion has learned the value of organic life. The VI couldn't give a damn.
...

I don't really think that's true given that this is the Consensus from the memories that surrendered platforms to allow Quarians to survive, and only attacked when it was defending other platforms. Just because it doesn't say everything in a manner suitable to you, doesn't mean its genocidal. Legion has more experience dealing with organics and so deals with the player in a certain way.

Shepard's statement in that context are there to reflect/affirm what the player chooses, its not there to absultely predict the future actions of characters.

[DeinonSlayer]

@wobble
The lead writer for ME1 explicitly called what the Geth did to the Quarians a, quote, "genocide."

The quarians had neither the numbers nor the ability to stand against their former servants. In a short but savage war their entire society was wiped out. Only a few million survivors — less than one percent of their entire population — escaped the genocide, fleeing their home world in a massive fleet, refugees forced to live in exile.

The Geth didn't "self-defense" their way through entire populations, then move to the next planet and "self-defense" their way through them too until nobody was left in the Veil (see codex entry for Haestrom, map description for Adas, codex entry on Geth culture). After the initial shutdown attempt, the Geth became the aggressors.

@Obadiah
"Just because it says it's going to kill them all and expressed no interest in alternatives doesn't mean it'll really do it!"

When Shepard tells the VI "no, I'm not going to let you kill them," it immediately tries to kill you. But believe whatever you want. As for the Consensus footage, given the presenter's constant lies of omission and vested interest in garnering Shepard's sympathy, I take everything we're shown in there with a grain of salt.