1331 réponses à ce sujet

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

I don't really think that's true given that this is the Consensus from the memories that surrendered platforms to allow Quarians to survive, and only attacked when it was defending other platforms. Just because it doesn't say everything in a manner suitable to you, doesn't mean its genocidal. Legion has more experience dealing with organics and so deals with the player in a certain way.

Shepard's statement in that context are there to reflect/affirm what the player chooses, its not there to absultely predict the future actions of characters.

 

Legion never transmitted data from his mission back to the Consensus. Period. 

 

The Consensus didn't "allow the Quarians to survive." The Quarians escaped. There is no mention of Geth ships at the time in the codex. It may take a while for The Geth to reach a consensus of 100%. Therefore since they never reached consensus they didn't "allow them to survive." They couldn't reach a decision.

[Obadiah]

You think the Geth won the Morning War without being able to operate spaceships? That's interesting.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

You think the Geth won the Morning War without being able to operate spaceships? That's interesting.

 

It is a distinct possibility that the Quarians were reduced to fighting an infantry war against the Geth since the Geth neural network probably was in nearly everything, and that is a war where the Quarians wouldn't stand a chance. There is a possibility that the Geth didn't need space ships exists since it isn't mentioned in the codex. But let's say they had the capacity to fly them. You're using this to dodge the main focus.

 

The original consensus was "wipe out all Quarians on Rannoch." Okay now the Quarians start using space ships to escape Rannoch. The way the Consensus works is that they have to reach a new consensus, "do we pursue them and wipe out the rest?" They could not reach a consensus on that. They didn't let the Quarians go. It means they couldn't reach agreement on what to do. The Quarians escaped. 

[DeinonSlayer]

It is a distinct possibility that the Quarians were reduced to fighting an infantry war against the Geth since the Geth neural network probably was in nearly everything, and that is a war where the Quarians wouldn't stand a chance. There is a possibility that the Geth didn't need space ships exists since it isn't mentioned in the codex. But let's say they had the capacity to fly them. You're using this to dodge the main focus.
 
The original consensus was "wipe out all Quarians on Rannoch." Okay now the Quarians start using space ships to escape Rannoch. The way the Consensus works is that they have to reach a new consensus, "do we pursue them and wipe out the rest?" They could not reach a consensus on that. They didn't let the Quarians go. It means they couldn't reach agreement on what to do. The Quarians escaped.

I wonder where the Quarians got all of those ships from to begin with, just in the initial escape. It's never really explained. One theory was that it was a non-Council affiliated "Dunkirk" evacuation, with other species lending ships to rescue as many as they could, and the ships were unable to be returned afterward. Such "ship theft" would explain where some of the initial animosity towards Quarians may have come from, but it is, again, a theory, and I won't pretend it's anything more than that.

[Obadiah]

1) The quote is, "Geth pursuit is breaking off 100 clicks past Rannoch," indicating the Geth were airborne.

2) I don't think the Quarian escape off Rannoch would be within a short enough time that the Consensus could not decide to chase them as they escaped.

3) The Geth VI quote is, "We had secured freedom. The Creators were no longer a threat, so we abandoned pursuit," indicating a decision to let the Quarians go. The further reason given is, "Our future was uncertain. Our networking was primitive. We stayed within our limits."

[Obadiah]

...
But believe whatever you want.
...

I don't think the problem is really what I believe.

You have taken the information given in game and come to a particular conclusion of events, and for some reason insist that everyone else's that differs given that same information is invalid. But your evidence is very very very thin. Your evidence for the Geth attacking the Quarians above Rannoch if the Quarians stand down is a statement that indicates the Geth will win that fight when the Quarians attack (in a situation where the Quarians will attack and attempt to destroy its race if the Geth VI does nothing), and Shepard's response in one particular version of the conversation that the Geth action would be "Genocide."

But what about the other version of the conversation where the Geth VI doesn't start the upload and instead begs, and attacks only when its race is about to be wiped out by the Quarians? That's evidence that the Geth will not attack unless it is in defense. I'm sure you'll just ignore or discount it in some way, but its just as much evidence that the Geth are not inherently interested in wiping out the Quarians, and would primarily just not like to be destroyed.

[DeinonSlayer]

@Obadiah
The only conclusions I call invalid are the ones which directly contradict the lore (I call it bad writing when the writers violate their own lore). You've repeatedly dismissed Karpyshyn's book and the elevator conversation in ME1, among other things, because it doesn't fit the narrative you choose to believe. I question what we're shown in the Consensus for reasons I've stated before: the presenter lying repeatedly, the malleability of the medium in which it's presented. I think we're supposed to question what we're shown; you on the other hand draw starker conclusions than the Geth themselves claim (ie: the Quarians killing 10% of their own population because you don't want to believe the Geth did what the book says they did).

You reach different conclusions from this input than I do. No more, no less. So I say again, believe what you want. We can go back and forth insisting the other is wrong, but it's clear we're not going to change each others' minds, and I'd rather this not turn into a hundred pages of silverexile versus remydat all over again.

[TheOneTrueBioticGod]

Why would the Geth tell the truth in the consensus?

Is there any good reason for them to do as such?

[Obadiah]

@DeinonSlayer
On this we can agree.

*Cough*
Also, I don't actually have a conclusion on the number of Quarians killed. I floated a bunch of numbers to see which would be feasible/acceptable, and then argued that the numbers we know of wouldn't discount 10%.

[DeinonSlayer]

I miss legion.

I miss ME2 Legion. Not sure who that new guy is.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Writers changed mid-way through ME2 from Karpyshyn to Walters. From L'Etoile to Weekes. The interpretation of the storyline and of the characters changed leading them to market ME3 as the best place to start. If you start there, there is no breaking of the lore. You don't have to think about Legion, Tali, Wrex, or any of the characters who could have died in ME2 because they don't exist. I think the only ones you have are Kaidan if you're femShep, or Ash if your manShep, Liara, EDI, James, and possibly Javik.

 

You deal with Xen who apparently slipped a cog from being in her suit on a research vessel too long being portrayed as the consumate "mad scientist" whereas she's fairly reasonable on a Tali import. You deal with Geth VI instead of Legion. And you deal with Raan who unlike Tali goes gangsta on Geth VI.

 

And regardless of right or wrong, my Shepard would always side with the Quarians if peace were not possible. No matter how much you might like Legion or the Geth, they are not like us.They would not choose us. They didn't even think to ask us for help. They sided with the Reapers. They are not organic. The Quarians are. Damn, I sound like Ashley.

[78stonewobble]

Legion never transmitted data from his mission back to the Consensus. Period. 

 

The Consensus didn't "allow the Quarians to survive." The Quarians escaped. There is no mention of Geth ships at the time in the codex. It may take a while for The Geth to reach a consensus of 100%. Therefore since they never reached consensus they didn't "allow them to survive." They couldn't reach a decision.

 

Which disproves that the geth actions in the morning war is a genocide. 

 

Genocide requires the explicit intent of the destruction of an entire species or race or whatever grouping. 

 

... 

 

We could argue that the geth wiping out the quarians in the 2nd war is genocide, but... then we run into the heavy handed writing again. 

 

If my country is attacked and we destroy every military vehicle shooting at us. It's a war of selfdefence, even if the entire other nation was inside these vehicles and they seize to exist because of our actions. 

 

That is how the 2nd war is described and it does fall under self defence. 

 

Civilian casualties are acceptable in a time of war. Ie. even hospitals loose their protection under the geneva convention, if they are being used to commit acts harmfull to the enemy. 

 

Arming every ship in the quarian fleet with the biggest guns they could find means that every ship in that fleet loose any civilian status. 

 

...

 

What irks me there is that supposition that no quarians would surrender, the geth would not allow a surrender and that shepard isn't asked or being given a proper chance to change the course of action. 

 

Because even if you choose the geth over the quarians, the geth still pledge themselves to fight against the reapers, with that in mind it would only be logical to try to prevent more damage to the geth fleet, save as many quarian ships and lives as possible. 

[Comrade Wakizashi]

And then people say the Catalyst poses a completely new problem in the MEU.

 

I think a lol is at place here.

 

The Catalyst may be right. Or he may not. We don't know.

What we do know is that his solution is flawed.

[Steelcan]

I miss ME2 Legion. Not sure who that new guy is.

Selling him to Cerberus makes it go much smoother

[DeinonSlayer]

Which disproves that the geth actions in the morning war is a genocide.

Genocide requires the explicit intent of the destruction of an entire species or race or whatever grouping.

No extermination has to be 100% to be classified as genocide. They intended to kill every organic in Quarian space and they succeeded. Those they didn't kill were those who left Quarian space.

You can fight this all you want, but the fact remains that the lead writer for ME1 specifically described what the Geth did to the Quarians in the Morning War as a genocide (see post at bottom of last page).

We could argue that the geth wiping out the quarians in the 2nd war is genocide, but... then we run into the heavy handed writing again.

If my country is attacked and we destroy every military vehicle shooting at us. It's a war of selfdefence, even if the entire other nation was inside these vehicles and they seize to exist because of our actions.

That is how the 2nd war is described and it does fall under self defence.

Civilian casualties are acceptable in a time of war. Ie. even hospitals loose their protection under the geneva convention, if they are being used to commit acts harmfull to the enemy.

Arming every ship in the quarian fleet with the biggest guns they could find means that every ship in that fleet loose any civilian status.

With Legion it could be called self defense, but the VI clearly states its intent to kill them all.

I won't argue that their armament invalidates them as civilians, but I think they made the right decision in arming that way. The Geth have targeted any ship entering their territory, armed or not, for centuries - so if their ships are going to be targeted, they might as well be capable of fighting. The Reapers, of course, won't care whether their targets are armed either. Not to mention the Codex has said since ME1 that most Quarian ships are armed to discourage piracy, given that they're forced to spend much of their time wandering the Terminus.

Of course, it was an entirely different situation in the Morning War. People on the ground who don't want to get blown up can at least try to get away from the fighting. It isn't an option when you live in a tiny metal cubicle in the cargo hold of a ship in space which is home to several hundred/thousand people beyond the capacity it was designed for (there isn't enough escape pods for everyone, even if there were a planet for those pods to go to). And no, they can't run from the fleet because that means having no destination, no military protection, and no food in a galaxy crawling with Reapers - besides, if you abandon Admiral Koris, a good number of civilian captains panic and attempt to flee to the relay only to be killed by the Geth blockading them in the system.

What irks me there is that supposition that no quarians would surrender, the geth would not allow a surrender and that shepard isn't asked or being given a proper chance to change the course of action.

Because even if you choose the geth over the quarians, the geth still pledge themselves to fight against the reapers, with that in mind it would only be logical to try to prevent more damage to the geth fleet, save as many quarian ships and lives as possible.

If you choose the Geth over the Quarians, Shepard chooses not to inform them that 1) the upload is taking place, and 2) the Geth are willing to honor a ceasefire for the first time in their entire history (if and only if Legion is present - the VI openly states its intent to kill them all). For all the Quarians know in this situation, another Reaper backup came online, in which case ceasing fire wouldn't spare them anyway.

[shodiswe]

The Geth that kill the fleeing Quarians if you don't save Koris are under Reapercontroll, that's before you break that Reapers control over them. So it doesn't really count for anything at that point, other than the fact that Koris is an imporant leader of the Quarians.
The admiral and leader that the Civilians are prepared to trust. If he dissapears then their trust in the other Admirals is gone. They only followed because Koris accepted an Admiralty majority vote, and the civilians trusted Koris.

Koris would probably be the closest thing to a Civilian accepted leadership, a president or primeminister, even if he wasn't elected by the people but rather his predecessor and possibly the other admirals at some point. But it seems like the civilians puts a lot of trust in him and respect him, unlike the other admirals.

[Ryriena]

Civilian casualties are acceptable in a time of war. Ie. even hospitals loose their protection under the geneva convention, if they are being used to commit acts harmfull to the enemy.

For some reason, my quoting has failed ugh

If that the case then, why is Iseral blamed for this when they attack the Palastine schools and hospitals? In other words you have no argument for that case. That is a number one reason they get hammered in the press. You can read up on this type of thing here in this guardian article. [url="""]http://www.theguardian.com/world/2009/jan/07/gaza-israel-obama'[/url]> http://www.theguardi...za-israel-obama

[Farangbaa]

Oh yes, let's talk about Israel. That will really make this forum a happy place.

[Ryriena]

Oh yes, let's talk about Israel. That will really make this forum a happy place.

I was just point that out to his ridiculous assumption about the Geneva convention.

[Farangbaa]

I was just point that out to his ridiculous assumption about the Geneva convention.

 

Geneva conventions are for war.

 

Israel is not at war with Palestina. Palestina doesn't exist. That's the problem.

[Obadiah]

I like how Koris goes from that whiney pink-suited understanding surrender-monkey that wanted to exile Tali in ME2 to one of the keys to making peace in ME3 because he's one of the Admirals open to the idea of making peace with the Geth. I'm glad they took him out of the pink suit.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Which disproves that the geth actions in the morning war is a genocide. 

 

Genocide requires the explicit intent of the destruction of an entire species or race or whatever grouping. 

 

 

 

You are really reaching here. They did intend to kill the entire race, and would have if they'd stayed on Rannoch. And intent really doesn't matter either. I could prove intent in a court of law with the sheer numbers. I'd bounce you off a jury if I was prosecuting. Look up genocide for f***s sake. What the hell are they teaching in school these days?

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Selling him to Cerberus makes it go much smoother

 

I prefer settling the argument between Tali and Legion by telling Legion not to send the data and sending him through the tube. For some mysterious reason he has some emotional issues. Oh well, there goes my desk lamp.

[Mrs_Stick]

You are really reaching here. They did intend to kill the entire race, and would have if they'd stayed on Rannoch. And intent really doesn't matter either. I could prove intent in a court of law with the sheer numbers. I'd bounce you off a jury if I was prosecuting. Look up genocide for f***s sake. What the hell are they teaching in school these days?

As little as possible.