1331 réponses à ce sujet

[DeinonSlayer]

Legion said the Geth remember the ones who sided with them. Apparently they killed them anyway because he mentioned nothing of their descendants.

The VI doesn't acknowledge them at all. Shrugs them off as of no significance. "Honoring them" seems to be a development as recent as Legion's return to the Consensus post-ME2.

Of course, there are those who believe on the basis of that one clip that the Quarian government killed off half of their own population for resisting the shutdown order, but that's getting into Auld Wulf territory.

[shodiswe]

The VI doesn't acknowledge them at all. Shrugs them off as of no significance. "Honoring them" seems to be a development as recent as Legion's return to the Consensus post-ME2.

Of course, there are those who believe on the basis of that one clip that the Quarian government killed off half of their own population for resisting the shutdown order, but that's getting into Auld Wulf territory.

Maybe Bioware would do a game about the Morning war and the events leading up to it. There is certainly plenty of material over a one year period.

Then things regarding the Morning war would get settled. I belive Bioware wants to do Sequels however, and games with the possibility of having a human protagonist since those are the most popular. We all know popular sells the best.

I have to admit I would prefer a sequel aswell. But the Morningwar seems like it would be a good story.

[Staff Cdr Alenko]

Back when Chris L'Etoile spoke with canonical force he made it very clear that the vast majority of the quarian population was left behind ( on Caprica he joked ) when the Migrant Fleet departed. The rest of the galaxy assumed that the geth slaughtered them, but what actually happened is only known to the geth and to those (probably) billions of abandoned quarians. Chris suggested there might be suvivors living beyond the veil to the modern day. No one knows because no one had checked it out since the quarian fleet fled.
 
In my opinion a race which believes itself to be fighting for it's very survival wouldn't go down easy. Fighting must have killed a significant number of quarians. However, geth represented the system that enabled quarian survival. The quarians had come to depend on them to take care of their basic needs; growing food, labor, etc. With the geth's role suddenly replaced with a massive conflict, it's not unreasonable to assume that quarian society completely collapsed. How many quarians died of starvation, disease, etc? Can you blame the geth for these deaths? They just wanted to continue to exist and serve their creators. The quarians are the ones who choose this mess and the geth can't understand why. "What did we do wrong?"

Where did Chris L'Etoile say that? Was it in ME2 or somewhere else? (This is not a question that stems from disbelief, I'd just like to see the source, this is very interesting.)

[von uber]

There's an interesting planet description about the quarians trying to set up a colony ahwad of council permission and the council basically forcing them off with threat of force.
Not surprising they viewed rannoch as their last hope.

[Ryriena]

However, I'd chalk that plot hole up by saying that the Qurians helped themselves into that problem. The facts are known that the Qurians kept attacking, when they thought they could win. The Geth thought they should be left alone, did anyone listen to Legion in ME2? Thus causing massive loses in the population, as such, they did not learn to stop throwing themselves at the Geth. Heck the Quarins even killed half of the population because they helped the GETH. They tried to take care of the children and people left on Rannorch but they did not known, how too they where still children that were growing.. They cut themselves off due to them thinking this would stop the Qurians from coming after them again.

[Ryriena]

Legion said the Geth remember the ones who sided with them. Apparently they killed them anyway because he mentioned nothing of their descendants.

He does in fact mention that a lot of them died due to starvation and injuries suffered during the war. He doesn't say anything about killing them.

[Obadiah]

@Trust

...or, the Quarians could have been wiped out in the Morning War because they executed a plan similar to what they did in the Battle Over Rannoch, engaged all of their forces including their civilians, never surrendered, and then lost big because they underestimated their enemy.

[Sir DeLoria]

He does in fact mention that a lot of them died due to starvation and injuries suffered during the war. He doesn't say anything about killing them.

That doesn't make sense, if many million people are left on a planet, they should have been able to sustain themselves for the most part. The descendants of these people would still live on Rannoch.

I also don't think I've ever heard that dialogue.

[Sir DeLoria]

However, I'd chalk that plot hole up by saying that the Qurians helped themselves into that problem. The facts are known that the Qurians kept attacking, when they thought they could win. The Geth thought they should be left alone, did anyone listen to Legion in ME2? Thus causing massive loses in the population, as such, they did not learn to stop throwing themselves at the Geth. Heck the Quarins even killed half of the population because they helped the GETH. They tried to take care of the children and people left on Rannorch but they did not known, how too they where still children that were growing.. They cut themselves off due to them thinking this would stop the Qurians from coming after them again.

Not sure if you're being sarcastic or ironic here. The comment about half the Quarian population for example is absolutely false. Legion himself states that the general Quarian opinion simply shifted agains the Geth over the course of the conflict and actual killings are implied as being very rare.

[Farangbaa]

@Ryriena

 

ARe you using what Legion says in game, or what's in the game files?

 

I know there are quite a few Normandy conversation with Legion in the files, but in the game you can only do one or two of them before your crew starts dying. (so I've never heard it )

[DeinonSlayer]

@Trust

...or, the Quarians could have been wiped out in the Morning War because they executed a plan similar to what they did in the Battle Over Rannoch, engaged all of their forces including their civilians, never surrendered, and then lost big because they underestimated their enemy.

Which directly contradicts the account we're given, but that's never deterred you before.

Most of the Quarian population in the modern war (the vast, vast majority in fact) is huddled in the cargo holds they call home because they have nowhere else to go. Put those same people on the ground, where they were in the Morning War, and you aren't going to see 99% of them scrambling for the nearest rifle.

[TheOneTrueBioticGod]

To eliminate 99% of a population means killing a lot of children. Did those children pose much of a threat to the Geth? Were the Quarians using them to attack the Geth? No.

 

The Geth deliberately committed genocide. They slaughtered millions upon millions of innocent people. You can't honestly say the the Quarians had a majority of their population in the military. 

[Jorji Costava]

That doesn't make sense, if many million people are left on a planet, they should have been able to sustain themselves for the most part. The descendants of these people would still live on Rannoch.

 

Wait, how do we know that? Five million people died in the Second Congo War, making it the deadliest conflict in human history since WWII. But less than 10% of those deaths are attributed to actual combat. The rest resulted from famine, disease, lack of sanitation as a consequence of massive displacements and refugee movements.

 

And that was a war that didn't even involve any possibility of nuclear fallout or toxic waste; if you ask millions of people to settle in Pripyat in the aftermath of the Chernobyl disaster, it is pretty unlikely that they would survive. And Legion does mention that the Geth are still cleaning up toxic residues that are still around 300 years after the war. That is some pretty noxious stuff. Of course, you could argue that these residues are from chemical weapons; they could also be from the destruction of power sources during the war. As with pretty much all things pertaining to the Morning War, we don't really know.

 

The only conclusion we can draw for certain is that the writers weren't prepared to deal with the presence of Quarian survivors on Rannoch; you can't just make that a footnote. It would become a, if not the, central issue in the conflict. How do we deal with them? Can we expect them to side with the Migrant fleet if the fleet invades. To answer those questions, you'd have to establish a whole history of what's been happening on Rannoch since the war. It was putting too much on their plate (and as ME3 makes evident, the writers had too much on their plate as it is), so they probably just decided, "Screw it. Let's just not mention that stuff."

 

There's only so far that nitpicking at every fine detail of the lore will get you. If I wanted, I could make a case that 90% of Terminator 2: Judgment Day happened in Sarah Connor's head. But at a certain point, it seems to me that the most sensible thing to do is simply acknowledge the limitations of the writing and admit, as Jim Mora Sr. would say, "we think we know, but we don't know, and we never will."

[Iakus]

Back when Chris L'Etoile spoke with canonical force he made it very clear that the vast majority of the quarian population was left behind ( on Caprica he joked ) when the Migrant Fleet departed. The rest of the galaxy assumed that the geth slaughtered them, but what actually happened is only known to the geth and to those (probably) billions of abandoned quarians. Chris suggested there might be suvivors living beyond the veil to the modern day. No one knows because no one had checked it out since the quarian fleet fled.

 

 

See, now that would be really interesting.

[DeinonSlayer]

@Trust
One thing I will say in ME2 and ME3's favor is that they did give us more flexibility to define our own positions. It always kills me when people get on their pedestal about how in ME1 they argued with Tali that the Geth were Just Defending Themselves.

Of course you did. There was no other option. That conversation gave us three different flavors of "you got what you deserved" to choose from. I'd have liked a choice there which didn't consist of either thumbing my nose at the Quarians' situation or making excuses for the Geth - we're talking to someone who's spent her whole life paying for crap that happened generations before she was born. To me, that's right down there with being forced to compare the Genophage to the First Contact War.

Don't get me started on the (thankfully optional) extension of that conversation, identical for paragon and renegade: *derisive snort, cross arms* "It's hard to feel sorry for you; you tried to-" **** off, Shepard.

[Obadiah]

Which directly contradicts the account we're given, but that's never deterred you before...

It was an idea I came up with just now, but ok, where is that a direct contradiction of the account?

[DeinonSlayer]

It was an idea I came up with just now, but ok, where is that a direct contradiction of the account?

ME: Revelation. You've dismissed it in the past, though (along with anything else which clashes with your headcanon - I don't know why I bother). There's also the (obscure) line in ME3 saying the Geth never learned to take survivors (Koris mission, regarding the cleanup crews killing the civilians from the escape pods).

And around and around we go...

[Obadiah]

To eliminate 99% of a population means killing a lot of children. Did those children pose much of a threat to the Geth?
...

It means a lot of children died. That doesn't mean the Geth killed them.

[Obadiah]

ME: Revelation. You've dismissed it in the past, though. There's also the (obscure) line in ME3 saying the Geth never learned to take survivors.

And around and around we go...

Oh I see. The Quarians couldn't have armed their civilians and engaged in a massive attack that got most of their population killed because of a general brief description/summary of known galactic history, and and an obscure line about Geth not taking prisoners. Thanks for clearing that up.

[DeinonSlayer]

From the secondary codex entry on Geth culture, it sounds like the Geth were the ones throwing themselves at Quarian positions by the thousands. It wasn't the Quarians using zerg tactics as you like to believe (the Vi talks about "breaking pursuit" after the survivors fled the planet, meaning the Geth were the ones pressing the attack), but if past form is any example, you're going to believe what you want and blow off any lore contradicting it no matter what I say so there isn't much point in debating you.

[shodiswe]

To eliminate 99% of a population means killing a lot of children. Did those children pose much of a threat to the Geth? Were the Quarians using them to attack the Geth? No.
 
The Geth deliberately committed genocide. They slaughtered millions upon millions of innocent people. You can't honestly say the the Quarians had a majority of their population in the military.

Maybe the Quarians did what they did 300 years later, arm them with a gun to shoot Geth. They got a trackrecord of mounting cannons on schoolbusses.

Possible Scenario by observing contemporary Quarian millitary leaders. They likely wanted the Geth to be dissabled before anythign could happen, therefor they needed more manpover and civilians might have been conscripted. Todays Quarians use conscription when needed.

Quarian Commander just before the outbreak of the Morning war adresses the elementary school kids over the loudspeakers:
Homeword high command has decided we need every citizen to arm themselves with a provided firearm to assist in the deactivation of the geth to speed up the reclamation process.
We appologise for the intrusion to the normality of your lives but the normal powerdown function for all Geth have malfunctioned, we belive they might become a problem to public safety if we don't take action immediately. That is why we are requesting your help to perform a sweep of your neighborhood and patches wildland that needs to be searched.
Outside the school my men will profide you the gear you will requier to perform your civic duty as ordered by Homeworld high command.
If you got a Geth assistant in your classroom you are to bring it out to the scrapper waiting outside.

The compulsory schooling as per conclave law has been temporary suspended by order of High command.

Also, High command is happy to inform that exemplary service will provide loyal citizens with priority access to higher educations, paid for by High command itself. Happy hunting.

Teachers are also to report for additional information at your local Conclavehall where assignments for the adult population will be processed.

[TheOneTrueBioticGod]

Because making up stories excuse the fact that there is no reference to this whatsoever in canon. 

The Geth killed children. Millions upon millions. 

[shodiswe]

From the secondary codex entry on Geth culture, it sounds like the Geth were the ones throwing themselves at Quarian positions by the thousands. It wasn't the Quarians using zerg tactics as you like to believe (the Vi talks about "breaking pursuit" after the survivors fled the planet, meaning the Geth were the ones pressing the attack), but if past form is any example, you're going to believe what you want and blow off any lore contradicting it no matter what I say so there isn't much point in debating you.

The part about the Geth breaking persuit was towards the end of the morning war. It's when there was only a few million of them left. It says little about the initial conflict.
I would say the picture of a Quarian and an unarmed geth standign there to get shot down by a fiering squad is far more representative of the beginning of the morning war, before the geth picked up weapons to defend themselves. At the beginning the Geth were just shocked at what was happening, they were even concerend about the Quarians that were getting hurt by their own government.

Eventualy I guess the Geth figured out what was going on, then they decided to do something about it.

[Obadiah]

So, because the Geth fight the way that they do, it means the Quarians didn't arm their civilians?

Ok. Glad I wasn't jumping to conclusions.

Bear in mind the "Quarians arming their civilians" is something I came up with just as one potential explanation of how their numbers could have been devastated because you and Trust asserted the ONLY explanation is the Geth enacting a process of Mass Extermination.