1331 réponses à ce sujet

[von uber]

Never understood the love for the Geth myself.

[shodiswe]

Because making up stories excuse the fact that there is no reference to this whatsoever in canon. 

The Geth killed children. Millions upon millions.

Neither is there reference to them killing children..... There are holes in the storytellig nthe size of a planet. But we have seen how ruthless they are, it's truly ruthless and shocking for them to drag their children and poorly armed or protected civilians into battle. But they conscripted them anyway.

It's already been established that the Quarians don't subscribe to human morals or concern for children or civilians. Otherwise they wouldn't have done what they did in ME3.

[Iakus]

Never understood the love for the Geth myself.

 

Prior to ME3, they were a truly alien race.  Not just rubber-masked humans like most of the others, but a being who's very thought process was fundamentally different from ours.  I wouldn't say I "loved" them.  But I found them very interesting conceptually.

 

Then ME3 came along and they became a bunch of metal Pinnochios.

[von uber]

Prior to ME3, they were a truly alien race.  Not just rubber-masked humans like most of the others, but a being who's very thought process was fundamentally different from ours.  I wouldn't say I "loved" them.  But I found them very interesting conceptually.

 

Then ME3 came along and they became a bunch of metal Pinnochios.

 

Yes, I agree that within ME2 they are. The idea of a collective conscious intelligence thing was quite a good concept to get your head around (What's your name - We are geth - No, your name - Geth).

Come 3, it's just another humanoid race.

[shodiswe]

Children too young to care for themselves would die if no parrents are around to help them, all that would be needed is that the Geth don't help them either.

They wouldn't need to kill unarmed babies since they would die anyway, and those who can take care of themselves were likely in posession of a gun. Out of fear it's easy to see how they would try to shoot Geth that killed their parrents, who in turn tried to kill Geth because they were ordered to or because they were scared.

It would quickly become a wildfire that spreads by itself.

[Obadiah]

Because making up stories excuse the fact that there is no reference to this whatsoever in canon.

The Geth killed children. Millions upon millions.

Yeah, we wouldn't want to "make up stories."

[FlyingSquirrel]

I agree that the science and technology in the Rannoch arc has some pretty blatant contrivances at times, though I don't really care too much about that sort of thing if the characters and themes are interesting enough.

 

Regarding the quarian admirals' portrayal, I saw the characterizations in ME2 as deliberately reversing expectations by having the war hawk be relatively helpful and the peacemaker be an annoying blowhard, which was fine with me - fiction that deals with these sorts of debates shouldn't always have the person with the more sympathetic position also be the more sympathetic person. Also, it's implied that both Koris *and* Gerrel are using the trial for the purpose of political maneuvering. So Gerrel may only be cooperating because he thinks a conviction for Tali could undermine his position, insofar as Tali's father would seem to be on the hawkish end of the spectrum. Shepard can urge peace with the geth both at the end of the trial and in the private conversation with Koris after it's over, and Koris responds receptively in both cases.

 

As for the geth deciding that they want to be come individuals, I agree that it was a letdown in some ways, but they may well have decided that the risks of remaining a single collective intelligence outweighed the benefits after what just happened, i.e. after having their numbers reduced by the quarians, their perspective was narrowed and their intelligence lowered to the point that they decided to ally with the Reapers. What should have been clearer was how this actually happened. My interpretation is that the decision was made without a true consensus, and Legion and any other dissenters were simply outvoted and suppressed by the majority. But the game never really explains this.

[shodiswe]

Yes, I agree that within ME2 they are. The idea of a collective conscious intelligence thing was quite a good concept to get your head around (What's your name - We are geth - No, your name - Geth).
Come 3, it's just another humanoid race.

Legion could probably have given Shepard some kind of identity code, like the Gethprime that sends a message to Shepard with a status report. But I guess the writers wanted a real name. It works for me all the same.

[Jorji Costava]

Because making up stories excuse the fact that there is no reference to this whatsoever in canon. 

The Geth killed children. Millions upon millions. 

 

Again, this is yet another thing we simply don't know. It's possible that large numbers of civilian deaths resulted from starvation, famine, etc. It's possible that a lot were killed in attacks you could try to justify in terms of double effect or a related doctrine. And it's also possible that many died from collateral damage from attacks inflicted by the Quarians themselves. There was no Geth state, no place where they were all concentrated that you could strike, so it stands to reason that any attempt at retaliation by the Quarians would have resulted in civilian deaths. Again, we just don't know much about what happened, but "not enough evidence" is not a very satisfying answer for our pattern-seeking brains, so there's always a tendency to project our biases backwards into the history of what happened.

 

Never understood the love for the Geth myself.

 

In addition to them being the only real alien race in the game, there's also the fact that Legion's loyalty mission gave you one of the few choices that couldn't neatly be packed into the P/R system. Personally, I'm much more mystified by the love for the Quarians (not that I think they deserve death or lack rights or some such nonsense, but I just find them terribly uninteresting), but that's neither here nor there.

[shodiswe]

I agree that the science and technology in the Rannoch arc has some pretty blatant contrivances at times, though I don't really care too much about that sort of thing if the characters and themes are interesting enough.
 
Regarding the quarian admirals' portrayal, I saw the characterizations in ME2 as deliberately reversing expectations by having the war hawk be relatively helpful and the peacemaker be an annoying blowhard, which was fine with me - fiction that deals with these sorts of debates shouldn't always have the person with the more sympathetic position also be the more sympathetic person. Also, it's implied that both Koris *and* Gerrel are using the trial for the purpose of political maneuvering. So Gerrel may only be cooperating because he thinks a conviction for Tali could undermine his position, insofar as Tali's father would seem to be on the hawkish end of the spectrum. Shepard can urge peace with the geth both at the end of the trial and in the private conversation with Koris after it's over, and he responds politely in both cases.
 
As for the geth deciding that they want to be come individuals, I agree that it was a letdown in some ways, but they may well have decided that the risks of remaining a single collective intelligence outweighed the benefits after what just happened, i.e. after having their numbers reduced by the quarians, their perspective was narrowed and their intelligence lowered to the point that they decided to ally with the Reapers. What should have been clearer was how this actually happened. My interpretation is that the decision was made without a true consensus, and Legion and any other dissenters were simply outvoted and suppressed by the majority. But the game never really explains this.

It's likely you're correct about the majority ignoring the minority, which might have been Legion and a few others. It's even possible the others were the Gethprimes that Legion wanted to liberate from that server, and perhaps even that Gethprime that shows up after the upload.

It certainly explains why legion was shackled.

[TheOneTrueBioticGod]

There can't be a war in which 99% of a population in the billions dies and civilians were not targeted. 

In WWII, a majority of deaths were civilian. There is absolutely no possible way the Geth managed to win without annihilating civilian population centers. 

[shodiswe]

Prior to ME3, they were a truly alien race.  Not just rubber-masked humans like most of the others, but a being who's very thought process was fundamentally different from ours.  I wouldn't say I "loved" them.  But I found them very interesting conceptually.
 
Then ME3 came along and they became a bunch of metal Pinnochios.

Interesting fact, Geth seems to be made of polymer to a large part... I'm guessing it would be heavy to have a mostly metal chassi.

[Jorji Costava]

There can't be a war in which 99% of a population in the billions dies and civilians were not targeted. 

In WWII, a majority of deaths were civilian. There is absolutely no possible way the Geth managed to win without annihilating civilian population centers. 

 

I've already given an example of a war in which something like this actually did happen; the Second Congo War, in which less than 10% of 5 million total deaths were combat-related. There's also the difference between attacking civilian centers because it's necessary to get at military targets (double effect), and attacking civilian centers for the specific purpose of killing civilians; I'd argue that there's a significant moral difference between the two. Again, I don't think we really know what happened. I understand that's frustrating for a lot of people who have a great emotional stake in one side or the other being 'right,' but it wouldn't be the first time ME has pulled something like this (for instance, does anyone really know how the genophage works? It seems to change from game to game).

[Obadiah]

Right, this is only a science fiction story where an entire civilization went to war as their infrastructure collapsed around them.

[TheOneTrueBioticGod]

For a 99% death rate of the entire population you have to target civilians. 

[shodiswe]

There can't be a war in which 99% of a population in the billions dies and civilians were not targeted. 

In WWII, a majority of deaths were civilian. There is absolutely no possible way the Geth managed to win without annihilating civilian population centers.

If 99% of the Adult and young Quarian population capable of holdign a gun dies, then the chances of survival for those Quarians too young to pick up a gun seems slim.

The 1% that could eventualy evacuated when they realiased they couldn't possibly win. Any children left would starve. Even if they try to live on what was left around after a year of global warfare there wouldn't be much for them. Most likely they wern't good enough at takign care of themselves to start farming or making their own food...

If the Quarian military conscripted the whole population then the whole population became enemy combatants. In ME3 the whole Quarian fleet has become enemy combatants to the Geth, Koris says so himself when you save him down on the planet... cursing their own stupidity and insanity.

It was probalby the same story in the morning war. Most likely it started out fairly innocently where the military requested all Quarians and youngligns to assist in the return and deactivation of the Geth. A few Quarians objected but I'm certaint he majority complied to the orders of their military, just like they did in Me3.

I doubt most of the Quarian population understood what was going on at first or why they were doing what they were doing.

[shodiswe]

TBH, I don't think the Quiarian military expected it to turn out as bad as it did. At the start the Geth were completely harmless and mostly concerned about the safety of their creators.

Their plan was a swift scrapping. Urging the civilian population to turn over their Geth and assist in the powerdown of their Geth were most likely the first step, and it makes sence to make a public announcement when the product is in pretty much every home and bussines on the planet.

Then it escalated out of hand.

[Obadiah]

For a 99% death rate of the entire population you have to target civilians.

It means civilians died or were killed. It doesn't mean they were mass targetted.

[Jorji Costava]

For a 99% death rate of the entire population you have to target civilians. 

 

This is the last thing I'm going to say about this, because it seems like we're just going to go around in circles with this. Once again, even if it's true that you can't have a 99% death rate without targeting civilians, does it follow that you can't have a 99% death rate unless you target civilians specifically for the purpose of killing civilians (particularly when all of the other factors, like starvation, disease, toxic waste, etc. are taken into consideration)? There's also the toxic waste on Rannoch that's somehow still has left residues after 300 years; it's not out of the question to suppose that the surface of the planet was simply unlivable in the aftermath of the war. The Geth may not have had to do very much at all to achieve that 99% death rate. Again, you could (and probably will) attribute that to chemical weapons or some such, but that is still pretty speculative.

[Staff Cdr Alenko]

I agree that the science and technology in the Rannoch arc has some pretty blatant contrivances at times, though I don't really care too much about that sort of thing if the characters and themes are interesting enough.

 

Regarding the quarian admirals' portrayal, I saw the characterizations in ME2 as deliberately reversing expectations by having the war hawk be relatively helpful and the peacemaker be an annoying blowhard, which was fine with me - fiction that deals with these sorts of debates shouldn't always have the person with the more sympathetic position also be the more sympathetic person. Also, it's implied that both Koris *and* Gerrel are using the trial for the purpose of political maneuvering. So Gerrel may only be cooperating because he thinks a conviction for Tali could undermine his position, insofar as Tali's father would seem to be on the hawkish end of the spectrum. Shepard can urge peace with the geth both at the end of the trial and in the private conversation with Koris after it's over, and Koris responds receptively in both cases.

 

As for the geth deciding that they want to be come individuals, I agree that it was a letdown in some ways, but they may well have decided that the risks of remaining a single collective intelligence outweighed the benefits after what just happened, i.e. after having their numbers reduced by the quarians, their perspective was narrowed and their intelligence lowered to the point that they decided to ally with the Reapers. What should have been clearer was how this actually happened. My interpretation is that the decision was made without a true consensus, and Legion and any other dissenters were simply outvoted and suppressed by the majority. But the game never really explains this.

 

An interesting rationalization, although I think I might have a more plausible one:

 

ME3 writers -->

[KaiserShep]

Then ME3 came along and they became a bunch of metal Pinnochios.

 

Our external shell is 72% polymer.

[Ryriena]

That doesn't make sense, if many million people are left on a planet, they should have been able to sustain themselves for the most part. The descendants of these people would still live on Rannoch.

I also don't think I've ever heard that dialogue.

I have lol he did mention the few that where left died but a lot of them went with the other Qurians. It's in one of the conversions you have with him on Normandy I can't remember, which dialog option I chose. But I remember him saying something along those lines. I agree that it doesn't make sense in the long run since even animals learn not too keep throwing themselves into harms way. As it's also, mentioned that toxic residue all over the place, so either chemical weapons had been used or a large nuke was dropped either way this could have lead to the 99% number. Hell, Hiroshima had almost 90 percent of the city killed during the drop of the atomic bomb that later on 800k people who died due too the radiation left behind. It's more than likely that someone used chemical weapons or a larger nuke.

[Vortex13]

Prior to ME3, they were a truly alien race.  Not just rubber-masked humans like most of the others, but a being who's very thought process was fundamentally different from ours.  I wouldn't say I "loved" them.  But I found them very interesting conceptually.

 

Then ME3 came along and they became a bunch of metal Pinnochios.

 

 

Off topic but did anyone else notice that the aliens of the setting that were not direct human analogues where either:

 

'Humanized'; the Geth and their desire to become individual intelligences.

 

Given less and less screen time and only referred to in off screen remarks; the Rachni and their actions occurring almost entirely off camera

 

Or failing that, mocked and turned into a running gag of the series; the Hanar devolving into Blasto, and the Elcor and their means of communication and slow movement, being equated to lumbering idiots?

 

I get that aliens as rubber masked humans is easier to do, but by the end of the trilogy all of the 'alien' aliens were either swept under the rug, made like us, or mocked. If such elements were used in a story about the real world, such elements could very easily be seen as racist and xenophobic.

[I Tsunayoshi I]

Legion could probably have given Shepard some kind of identity code, like the Gethprime that sends a message to Shepard with a status report. But I guess the writers wanted a real name. It works for me all the same.

Had EDI not stepped in with the suggestion for a name, since Shepard and Legion both ran with it, that might have just happened. Of course that comes back on the writers all the same.

 

Off topic but did anyone else notice that the aliens of the setting that were not direct human analogues where either:

 

'Humanized'; the Geth and their desire to become individual intelligences.

 

Given less and less screen time and only referred to in off screen remarks; the Rachni and their actions occurring almost entirely off camera

 

Or failing that, mocked and turned into a running gag of the series; the Hanar devolving into Blasto, and the Elcor and their means of communication and slow movement, being equated to lumbering idiots?

 

I get that aliens as rubber masked humans is easier to do, but by the end of the trilogy all of the 'alien' aliens were either swept under the rug, made like us, or mocked. If such elements were used in a story about the real world, such elements could very easily be seen as racist and xenophobic.

As far as I am aware, I believe Blasto started as a bit of an inside joke from the community that just happened to get brought into the games. Armax Arena has another one of those in-jokes on display with the Shifty Cow.

[Fixers0]

They Rannoch arc wasn't the strong point of the narrative, nothing really was.