29 réponses à ce sujet

[Avaflame]

One thing I loved about Origins was being able to set up the direction of your character right from the get-go in the CC. In DA2, I didn't necessarily mind that we only started with one talent, but I did mind that I didn't get to choose it. I've only played Mages and Rogues, and I only used Miasmic Flask because it was there and I never used Mind Blast. I hated that I always started my games with them, I always felt like I'd essentially wasted one of my talent points right out of the gate, even though technically it's not the case.

So please let us go back to having an influence over our starting attributes and abilities again.

[Sylvius the Mad]

DAO assigned one of those talents for us, as well.  But most of us modded that out.

[Pistolized]

I agree.

[In Exile]

So do I. It was very frustrating on nightmare during the prologue when Mage or Rogue Hawke literally have a wasted talent because the abilities they have straight up don't really work well with FF. 

[Avaflame]

DAO assigned one of those talents for us, as well.  But most of us modded that out.

Oh yeah. I completely forgot I think because mages got Arcane Bolt which I would have chosen anyway, combined with being able to choose another two(?).

 

 

So do I. It was very frustrating on nightmare during the prologue when Mage or Rogue Hawke literally have a wasted talent because the abilities they have straight up don't really work well with FF.

 Or even in general, really. Or at least with Mind Blast when you can only use it close range but you don't have anything to take advantage of the stun yet.

[In Exile]

Oh yeah. I completely forgot I think because mages got Arcane Bolt which I would have chosen anyway, combined with being able to choose another two(?).

 

 

 Or even in general, really. Or at least with Mind Blast when you can only use it close range but you don't have anything to take advantage of the stun yet.

 

It was two talents. I'm not sure if those abilities work without FF because I honestly haven't played DA2 in hard like in... forever? 

[Avaflame]

I just meant that I found they were useless regardless of Friendly Fire on Nightmare, especially in the prologue. It doesn't (or never for me anyway) really slow enemies down much, and since they have to be right in front of you to get hit combined with how resistant they are to basic attacks and having no other abilities to capitalise on what minimal time they are stunned, it doesn't really help at all. My nightmare runs involve a lot of just running around and attacking from a distance.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Oh yeah. I completely forgot I think because mages got Arcane Bolt which I would have chosen anyway, combined with being able to choose another two(?).

I think the reason Mages were given Arcane Bolt was because the Mage origin (particularly the Harrowing) seems pretty silly if you don't have it.  You don't have a staff in the fade at that point, so you're left punching wisps if you don't have an offensive spell.

 

Still, I'd rather not have had that assigned (and I didn't, given the mods I used).

[Deflagratio]

Do we draw a distinction between a Wasted point and a Free point?

 

Say you get 25 Talent points total in the entire game, but you also start with (in the case of DA:O) Stealing as a skill naturally (Total: 26)

 

Or would you rather have 25 Talent points and no Pre-set skills? (Total: 25)

 

 

It may seem like I'm trying to obviously stack the deck in favor of one, but I totally get not liking certain aspects of the (Player) Character defined, kind of messes with RP.

[Darth Krytie]

I agree with picking your own abilities and talents instead of getting one in something you don't want and won't use. Miasmic flask was a wasted point, imo, and it's expensive to buy a maker's sigh in act one, when you're trying to save enough for all the expenses anyhow. (Well, until I maximised my playthroughs with strategic quests and runes of fortune and dlc gear)

 

I just like choosing, and if I make a dumb choice, on my own head be it.

[Gamemako]

I agree with picking your own abilities and talents instead of getting one in something you don't want and won't use... I just like choosing, and if I make a dumb choice, on my own head be it.

 

Sylvius made a good point about the design concession involved. Giving the player the ability to screw up the intro doesn't make a whole lot of sense, and they'd have to cut that part of the lore out otherwise. As long as the talent choice makes sense, it shouldn't really be an issue regardless. Good starting talents would often be the first talent in a relevant weapon pool. For example, let the player pick a weapon set out the gate, then assign an appropriate talent automatically so you can have a trial by fire without roasting the casuals. That setup comes with its own drawbacks, though, especially in a game with as much equipment freedom as DA:O had.

[Darth Krytie]

Sylvius made a good point about the design concession involved. Giving the player the ability to screw up the intro doesn't make a whole lot of sense, and they'd have to cut that part of the lore out otherwise. As long as the talent choice makes sense, it shouldn't really be an issue regardless. Good starting talents would often be the first talent in a relevant weapon pool. For example, let the player pick a weapon set out the gate, then assign an appropriate talent automatically so you can have a trial by fire without roasting the casuals. That setup comes with its own drawbacks, though, especially in a game with as much equipment freedom as DA:O had.

 

There's always your basic attack. It's not like miasmic flask was a talent you needed to be able to do anything or mind blast. What do Warriors get? I don't even recall. You can't screw up the intro, even if you don't ever use the talents. Which means they're unnecessary. If a specific talent is vital to proceeding, that's one thing. So far, I don't believe any, aside from maybe the Harrowing mage example, have been vital to success.

[Googleness]

dark emporium > reset skills.

[Avaflame]

Do we draw a distinction between a Wasted point and a Free point?

 

Say you get 25 Talent points total in the entire game, but you also start with (in the case of DA:O) Stealing as a skill naturally (Total: 26)

 

Or would you rather have 25 Talent points and no Pre-set skills? (Total: 25)

 

 

It may seem like I'm trying to obviously stack the deck in favor of one, but I totally get not liking certain aspects of the (Player) Character defined, kind of messes with RP.

I fully admit that the idea of having a pre-set skill being a point "wasted" is all in my head. But that doesn't make the frustration any less real. In your example I ould probably actually prefer the second option just because of how I would react to it. With the second I'm starting each game with a blank slate whereas with the first I'm starting it thinking "Oh man, if only I'd been able to start with Stone Fist instead of Mind Blast, now I have to buy it when I level up when I could be getting Heal!".

The RPing bit does bother me as well, I like to have a little background of my PC in my head when I play so I don't like when the game unnecessarily overrides that. I don't play Warriors past the Origins or DA2s prologue, but I have a feeling Warriors started Origins with Shield Bash or something specific to one weapon type? But my warriors were all two-handers, so why did they know how to use a shield but not a greatsword?

Also I would say there is a distinction based on the fact that people want different things. Starting with Shield Bash in Origins is a little unfair when S&S players essentially get a free point whereas two-handed players don't, therefore being a point "wasted". Or when Sylvius pointed out to me that Origins set the first point for you, I'd forgotten because I would take Arcane Bolt anyway, so I essentially got a "free point" in that I could spend one of my two starting points on something extra.

So while it's definitely all in my head, I don't think that means there's nothing there. If it's real for me, it's real for others. And I don't really see what the downside is of letting us choose it ourselves.

[AlanC9]

DAO assigned one of those talents for us, as well.  But most of us modded that out.

Most of us?

[In Exile]

Most of us?

 

I didn't do it because it made the game too easy. 

[Realmzmaster]

DAO assigned one of those talents for us, as well.  But most of us modded that out.

Not I. If you say some of us modded it out I could agree with that.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Do we draw a distinction between a Wasted point and a Free point?

 

Say you get 25 Talent points total in the entire game, but you also start with (in the case of DA:O) Stealing as a skill naturally (Total: 26)

 

Or would you rather have 25 Talent points and no Pre-set skills? (Total: 25)

I'd rather lose the point than have it pre-assigned.  Pre-assigning it stacks the deck in favour of whatever build uses that ability, and thus biases all future skill selection decisions.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Not I. If you say some of us modded it out I could agree with that.

Granted.  I exaggerated unnecessarily.

[Deflagratio]

I fully admit that the idea of having a pre-set skill being a point "wasted" is all in my head. But that doesn't make the frustration any less real. In your example I ould probably actually prefer the second option just because of how I would react to it. With the second I'm starting each game with a blank slate whereas with the first I'm starting it thinking "Oh man, if only I'd been able to start with Stone Fist instead of Mind Blast, now I have to buy it when I level up when I could be getting Heal!".
[Rest Cut]

 

 

That's fine, as a matter of fact, there's a lot of reasons I would choose option 2 as well. Ranging from RP reasons, to gameplay reasons like Harder Difficulty and (slightly) more weight behind each talent assigned.

[In Exile]

I played on 360. They were both the same, and I didn't have any stinkin' mods.

 

I'd have to say DA2 set up a default skill better though. They were all stun skills for every class. They didn't shoehorn you into a specific playstyle. And you could respec right after you reached hightown.

The stun skills were useless, though (if we're looking at a mage or rogue) and the warrior stun only had value for a limited number of playstyles. 

[Sylvius the Mad]

The stun skills were useless, though (if we're looking at a mage or rogue) and the warrior stun only had value for a limited number of playstyles.

Unlike in DAO, where stun skills were always valuable to break overwhelm and grab attacks.

[In Exile]

Unlike in DAO, where stun skills were always valuable to break overwhelm and grab attacks.

 

DA:O had a minimum level of grappling that DA2 didn't have, which was good. In fact, grappling is what makes being outnumbered in melee combat so dangerous. The best unintentional illustration of this was the deathblow animation, which opened the character up to damage without being able to defend or react because of the follow-through.