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Did you save the council?


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#51
geth47

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As true soldiers, the ninth fleet of the alliance must be ready to die in the name of duty. They could take care of the reaper and then die in the hands of the geth, but then  another fleet would finish the job. The emergency was to take down sovereign at any cost and prevent him from summoning any more reapers into the galaxy. Even if they had to ram every alliance ship against it. 

 

Wow, you make it sound as if the Asari have an exemplary leadership. Just take a look on how incompetent the council they preside is. The Batarians and the humans are stricken without warning in me3, but the asari, with being aware of the reaper threat (something they can no longer deny), still lose thesia. Way to go, asari! 

 

It seems to me that both their poltical and military leadership are nothing but a complete joke.

 

I don´t think I´m the only one to suspect that this lethargy is an inside job of sorts. As if someone in the high-ranks was indoctrinated and facilitated things. 

 

There´s a very interesting saying: The most clever plan of the devil is to make someone think that he does not exist. Well, the asari certainly helped the reapers in this regard since they tried to uncover their existence. 

 

And yes, even if you do not admit, the constructions of dreadnoughts is costly, and in a single defeat, you can lose all hands and be crippled. 

 

The council should have been evacuated to a smaller ship and then run to safety. But no, they had to be on the DA. And trust me, even if they had order not to engage the enemy in an attempt to protect the council, from the moment they were within weapon´s range of the enemy and started to take hits they had to retaliate. It´s obvious that their defensive systems were inefficient. 



#52
General TSAR

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The Destiny Ascension reminds me of the Galaxy Class in star trek. What a waste of resources. So much better to built a large contingent of small or medium-size ships, all much more maneuverable and easily replaceable 

The Destiny Ascension reminds me of the German Tiger tank only far more useless, for the price, time, resources, and effort to build one Tiger I tank, the Germans could have built three or four of their medium but deadly Panzer Mk IV tanks.

 

Instead of wasting resources and time building one Destiny Ascension-class dreadnought, they could have built dozens or even hundreds of cruisers, corvettes, frigates, fighters, ect.


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#53
Mordokai

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As true soldiers, the ninth fleet of the alliance must be ready to die in the name of duty. They could take care of the reaper and then die in the hands of the geth, but then  another fleet would finish the job. The emergency was to take down sovereign at any cost and prevent him from summoning any more reapers into the galaxy. Even if they had to ram every alliance ship against it. 

 

Wow, you make it sound as if the Asari have an exemplary leadership. Just take a look on how incompetent the council they preside is. The Batarians and the humans are stricken without warning in me3, but the asari, with being aware of the reaper threat (something they can no longer deny), still lose thesia. Way to go, asari! 

 

It seems to me that both their poltical and military leadership are nothing but a complete joke.

 

I don´t think I´m the only one to suspect that this lethargy is an inside job of sorts. As if someone in the high-ranks was indoctrinated and facilitated things. 

 

There´s a very interesting saying: The most clever plan of the devil is to make someone think that he does not exist. Well, the asari certainly helped the reapers in this regard since they tried to uncover their existence. 

 

And yes, even if you do not admit, the constructions of dreadnoughts is costly, and in a single defeat, you can lose all hands and be crippled. 

 

The council should have been evacuated to a smaller ship and then run to safety. But no, they had to be on the DA. And trust me, even if they had order not to engage the enemy in an attempt to protect the council, from the moment they were within weapon´s range of the enemy and started to take hits they had to retaliate. It´s obvious that their defensive systems were inefficient. 

 

Yeeeeeaaaahhhhh... not touching that with eleven feet pole.



#54
Barquiel

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At that moment in the battle, Sovereign was zero threat to the galaxy. Shepard has control of the station and Sovereign can't control the Citadels systems from the outside. That's why it resurrected Saren: Sovereign needs an inside man to open the portal...and Saren was death when Shep makes the decision to save the DA or not.

The alliance fleet would've been slaughtered if it ended up caught between Sovereign and the geth, so quickly destroying the geth when they're distracted makes perfect sense. And you save the most powerful ship in citadel space for the battle against an unkown dreadnought (Hackett confirms this in Arrival, he wouldn't have specifically mentioned the DA if the ship was useless). To quote the codex here...

"The dreadnought is the ultimate arbiter of space warfare; millions of tons of metal, ceramic, and polymer dedicated to the projection of firepower against an enemy vessel of like ability. No sane commander would face a dreadnought with anything less than another dreadnought."



#55
Mordokai

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I find Admiral Mikhailovich to be far more useful to the war effort than a glass cannon. 

 

And I find the irony of xenophobic bastard possibly dying protecting the lives of alien soldiers he despised so much absolutely delicious.


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#56
General TSAR

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And I find the irony of xenophobic bastard possibly dying protecting the lives of alien soldiers he despised so much absolutely delicious.

As delicious as Liara's burnt corpse in London or as delicious as denying her right to speak with Vigil? See I don't view Boris as Xenophobic bastard, he is simply a general officer who is concerned about the strength and security of the Alliance in case of hostilities with the alien races and doesn't much care for defeatism, bent-knee diplomacy, or allowing alien nationals to poke around experimental warships.

 

A commendable attitude given the state of appeasement by the High Command. 


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#57
Mordokai

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As delicious as Liara's burnt corpse in London or as delicious as denying her right to speak with Vigil? See I don't view Boris as Xenophobic bastard, he is simply a general officer who is concerned about the strength of the alliance in case of hostilities with the council and doesn't much care for defeatism or bent-knee diplomacy.

 

You see a lot of things I don't :)



#58
Steelcan

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burned them all


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#59
geth47

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And I find the irony of xenophobic bastard possibly dying protecting the lives of alien soldiers he despised so much absolutely delicious.

 

You´re so mean...

 

People love to label humans who are concerned about aliens and their motives as xenophobic. As if by merely being cautions about aliens (who, by the way, are also concerned about humans and more than once tried to sabotage their advancement) they were advocating for open war or their total extermination. The turians are way too much trigger happy, in a fascist way. The Salarians (as well as the turians) did make use of a biological weapon against the krogan. The Krogan are a warrior race who loves battle. The batarians are involved in slave trade, brainwashing and massacres. The Asari are elitists who actually menage to discover ancient technology and hide the fact from the other species.

 

The Admiral, as well as Ashley, are more than entitled to be a little suspicious about them. Not that the humans are blameless, but you can´t be naive in the mass effect universe. 



#60
geth47

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"The alliance fleet would've been slaughtered if it ended up caught between Sovereign and the geth"

 

But this is exactly what happened in my ending by letting the DA be destroyed. The Citadel fleet engaged the geth, while the human fleet just waited for the citadel to open. Luckily, the citadel fleet was right there in order to finally help get the job done.

 

"so quickly destroying the geth when they're distracted makes perfect sense."

 

yeah, lots of sense engaging a reaper with an already crippled fleet that sustained battle damage. 

 

If the human fleet defeats the reaper and then loses to the geth, it is still a major victory. The galaxy is saved.

 

If the human fleet defeats the geth and then loses to the reaper, then it was all for nothing. Big failure. And now the galaxy is lost.

 

 

The only hope now is that the next cycle´s politicians be a little less moronic, and the military a bit less idiotic. 

 

"And you save the most powerful ship in citadel space for the battle against an unkown dreadnought (Hackett confirms this in Arrival, he wouldn't have specifically mentioned the DA if the ship was useless)."

 

It does not change the fact that you can defeat the reaper even without it. Btw, the asari commanding it was desperate on the comm requesting aid. The ship was beaten and defeated. 

 

"At that moment in the battle, Sovereign was zero threat to the galaxy. Shepard has control of the station and Sovereign can't control the Citadels systems from the outside. That's why it resurrected Saren: Sovereign needs an inside man to open the portal...and Saren was death when Shep makes the decision to save the DA or not."

 

Not only you make a lot of bold assumptions in a desperate attempt to try to justify your flawed view, but you totally contradict the game.

 

"At that moment in the battle, Sovereign was zero threat to the galaxy. Shepard has control of the station and Sovereign can't control the Citadels systems from the outside."

 

Either you had a severe memory lapse, or are simply a liar. All squad-mates say the same thing. That shepard should open the station´s arms urgently, so that the fleet can take sovereign down before it/he regains control of the citadel. And this happens after saren has been taken care of, and is presumed dead. 

 

Your squad-mates, as well as Admiral Hacckett say that take down the reaper is a matter of urgency. 

 

Besides, the reaper can always attempt to enthrall a new server by fast indoctrination, or even use one of the geth in order to manually override what the protheans did. 

 

You blatantly contradicted the game. Sovereign if reaper tech interacting with reaper tech on the citadel. A field agent manually operating the master control might makes things easier, but it does not mean that after a few minutes sovereign by himself won´t be able to bypass whatever the protheans did. Between placing my trust on a prothean firewall/scrambling abilities or reaper hacking techniques, I would go with the second option. For sovereign to come out of hiding and make a direct assault it was because he was confident in his own abilities to take control of the citadel. 

 

I´m with hackett and my squad-mate who raised a very good point. You´re with the council´s way of thinking. Well, look at how it turned out during my ending. 



#61
Pirate Queen Isabela

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You´re so mean...

 

People love to label humans who are concerned about aliens and their motives as xenophobic. As if by merely being cautions about aliens (who, by the way, are also concerned about humans and more than once tried to sabotage their advancement) they were advocating for open war or their total extermination. The turians are way too much trigger happy, in a fascist way. The Salarians (as well as the turians) did make use of a biological weapon against the krogan. The Krogan are a warrior race who loves battle. The batarians are involved in slave trade, brainwashing and massacres. The Asari are elitists who actually menage to discover ancient technology and hide the fact from the other species.

 

The Admiral, as well as Ashley, are more than entitled to be a little suspicious about them. Notthat the humans are blameless, but you can´t be naive in the mass effect universe. 

 

I feel like there is a difference between people who wrongly label cautious humans as xenophobic and humans who actually are xenophobic. I don't agree that Mikhailovich is xenophobic, but he isn't only cautious. He is very prejudiced against aliens, especially Turians because of the first contact war, so it's definitely more than the caution Pressly and Ashley exhibit. They both change their minds about Aliens, still very cautious but improving and even building friendships like Ashley sees Tali like a sister and gets along with Garrus. I don't know if the Admiral had the same change of heart.

 

 

Back on topic! My main Shepard is mainly Paragon but very impulsive and punishes those who did wrong and she never let the council die. Despite them being ignorant and more concerned about where their own races place of power is, she understands that point of view even if she doesn't support it and in turn just disconnects on them frequently. :)

 

Me as a player, I don't see the difference between the first Council and second, but I enjoy the Dalatrass' character, no matter how jerk-ish she is. Very well written, imo.



#62
SwobyJ

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All too often I've seen sentiment that being paragon is seen as weakness, or something along those lines. That's why I asked.

 

It's only a weakness if you consider withholding the gun for aggression sometimes in some ways to be a weakness, instead of an evolution of character.



#63
I Tsunayoshi I

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It's only a weakness if you consider withholding the gun for aggression sometimes in some ways to be a weakness, instead of an evolution of character.

That really comes down to the situation at hand in all honesty.

 

If you always have another priority over the mission at hand, then its possible that it is a weakness that can and will be exploited.



#64
SwobyJ

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That really comes down to the situation at hand in all honesty.

 

If you always have another priority over the mission at hand, then its possible that it is a weakness that can and will be exploited.

 

Is it over the mission? Did you stop fighting Sovereign and working to stop the Reapers?



#65
Secretlyapotato

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Yes, until my new trilogy playthrough where I just wanted the femsalarian councilor so I killed them.



#66
Mordokai

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You´re so mean...

 

People love to label humans who are concerned about aliens and their motives as xenophobic. As if by merely being cautions about aliens (who, by the way, are also concerned about humans and more than once tried to sabotage their advancement) they were advocating for open war or their total extermination. The turians are way too much trigger happy, in a fascist way. The Salarians (as well as the turians) did make use of a biological weapon against the krogan. The Krogan are a warrior race who loves battle. The batarians are involved in slave trade, brainwashing and massacres. The Asari are elitists who actually menage to discover ancient technology and hide the fact from the other species.

 

The Admiral, as well as Ashley, are more than entitled to be a little suspicious about them. Not that the humans are blameless, but you can´t be naive in the mass effect universe. 

 

I'm human. Being mean is in my nature... it's how we got as far as we did.

 

First, I can see Mikhailovich and Ashley and Pressly themselves claiming they are being "cautious". It's basically a politically correct way of saying xenophobic. Or at least close enough not to make a difference.

 

Second, you're applying a blank statement to entire race, based on decision made by few privileged individuals and assuming that goes true for entire race, when we see in-game that is not true. That is it's own form of xenophobia.

 

And yeah, every alien race has it's share of problems and shortcomings. I am well aware of that. What most pro-human and renegade Shepards(and, sometimes, by extension, their players) seem to forget is that all of alien races actually have legitimate grievances with humanity. We're brutish, we're temperamental, we go over bodies and trample everything in our way. In short, we're pretty ****** intimidating.

 

Frankly, humanity is given so much favoritism in this game it's not even funny anymore. And we're still asking for more. We should be happy the Council hasn't decided to nuke our sorry asses back to stone age. Instead, we're bitching how unfairly we're treated. If hypocrisy could get awarded with Nobel prize, renegade Shepard would be a multiple winner of it.


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#67
Barquiel

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I'm human. Being mean is in my nature... it's how we got as far as we did.
 
First, I can see Mikhailovich and Ashley and Pressly themselves claiming they are being "cautious". It's basically a politically correct way of saying xenophobic. Or at least close enough not to make a difference.


I teared up a little during Pressly's flashback in the Normandy Crash Site DLC. His data-logs always make me wish Pressly was alive and that I had the old Normandy back :crying:

 

But I agree that Bioware overdid it with the "humans are special" thing.


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#68
Fixers0

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I useally let the destiny ascension get destroyed, then let the salarian councillor die in Mass Effect 3 so that it's actually beneficial decision and i can get the no gunship this time line on cronos station rather than the wacky this was for thane/kirrahe line as if Shepard had any emotional attachment to those characters.



#69
Mordokai

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I useally let the destiny ascension get destroyed, then let the salarian councillor die in Mass Effect 3 so that it's actually beneficial decision and i can get the no gunship this time line on cronos station rather than the wacky this was for thane/kirrahe line as if Shepard had any emotional attachment to those characters.

 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but by my calculations, that would also work with DA left standing. You'd need Kirrahe/Thane dead, but DA being destroyed isn't a prerequisite for either of those.

 

I teared up a little during Pressly's flashback in the Normandy Crash Site DLC. His data-logs always make me wish Pressly was alive and that I had the old Normandy back :crying:

 

Yeah, that was actually pretty emotional moment.



#70
Fixers0

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Correct me if I'm wrong, but by my calculations, that would also work with DA left standing. You'd need Kirrahe/Thane dead, but DA being destroyed isn't a prerequisite for either of those.


Yes but if the DA was destroyed in me1 letting the salarian councillor die is more benefecial than if the DA was saved

#71
Mordokai

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Yes but if the DA was destroyed in me1 letting the salarian councillor die is more benefecial than if the DA was saved

 

How so? The salaraians send their fleets as a "thank you" for saving the councilor. What difference does it make which councilor that is?



#72
Fixers0

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How so? The salaraians send their fleets as a "thank you" for saving the councilor. What difference does it make which councilor that is?


If the salarian counciller dies when the DA is saved you end up with less war assets then ig the DA is destoyed.

#73
General TSAR

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I'm human. Being mean is in my nature... it's how we got as far as we did.

 

First, I can see Mikhailovich and Ashley and Pressly themselves claiming they are being "cautious". It's basically a politically correct way of saying xenophobic. Or at least close enough not to make a difference.

 

Second, you're applying a blank statement to entire race, based on decision made by few privileged individuals and assuming that goes true for entire race, when we see in-game that is not true. That is it's own form of xenophobia.

 

And yeah, every alien race has it's share of problems and shortcomings. I am well aware of that. What most pro-human and renegade Shepards(and, sometimes, by extension, their players) seem to forget is that all of alien races actually have legitimate grievances with humanity. We're brutish, we're temperamental, we go over bodies and trample everything in our way. In short, we're pretty ****** intimidating.

 

Frankly, humanity is given so much favoritism in this game it's not even funny anymore. And we're still asking for more. We should be happy the Council hasn't decided to nuke our sorry asses back to stone age. Instead, we're bitching how unfairly we're treated. If hypocrisy could get awarded with Nobel prize, renegade Shepard would be a multiple winner of it.

Defeatism, defeatism everywhere.


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#74
Mordokai

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If the salarian counciller dies when the DA is saved you end up with less war assets then ig the DA is destoyed.

 

Yes, but those assets are courtesy of Alliance saving vessels by them not being destroyed by geth fleet. Nothing whatsoever to be done with salarians.

 

Defeatism, defeatism everywhere.

 

If that's what they call it now...

 

Damn proud of it.



#75
geth47

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"Yeah, that was actually pretty emotional moment."

It would have been so much better, like all emails in me2, if  there was a narration.

"First, I can see Mikhailovich and Ashley and Pressly themselves claiming they are being "cautious". It's basically a politically correct way of saying xenophobic."

 

Ash is not xenophobic. She even criticizes the terra firma party for going too far. 

 

This is like saying that anyone who does not agree with all the demands the gay agenda can come up with is a intolerant homophobic who desires their extermination by means of torture and death. 

 

There are many levels of suspicion, distrust, 

 

I can see the Admiral´s point of view. When the normandy was commissioned under Anderson, there was a full human crew aboard. When Shepard takes the ship for it´s first trip under his guide, you have a Quarian (even though it can be an imposition from Udina) and you can also have both a Turian and a krogan with you. And right after your first mission you can have an Asari with you. Even the Turian Councilor himself says he´s expecting you to be cautious with Liara, since she´s a close relative of Benezia. Now tell me, is the Turian Councilor xenophobic towards Asari? Or is he just displaying sound judgment? it was actually one of the few instances during the series in which one member of the council said something smart. 

 

By the way, Saren did have an Asari agent on Noveria posing as an scientist. Liara could very well be in the same situation, with the whole trap thing being staged. The Krogan on the dig site was clear that they were not going to shoot at Liara, and attempt to take her alive. This could be because they´re working together. 

 

By the way, if I were Shepard, I would have certain suspicions about Garrus. A guy who worked for C-Sec (being the son of a lifelong agent) his whole life suddenly quits and asks to go with me on my ship? I would consider him suspect of being an informant for the Turian government. 

 

As for Wrex, he´s a known bouty hunter, with a rep for being constantly detained and questioned on the Citadel. I don´t know if he´s wanted for some crimes in the places I plan to visit. I know very little about him, and yet, out of the blue, he pays me and asks to come along. Very, very odd. You can´t even do a background check on him (questioning Garrus, his old boss, barla von, anderson, udina...). prior to deciding to take him or not. I doubt there´s no record on him being the son of an old warlord. Liara is smart, and does some search  into shepard on google´s extranet equivalent. 

 

Sure, since you know the game already based on some playthroughts, you can safely go the paragon route without being concerned about bad repercussions or being too naive with people you know very little or virtually nothing about it. But if this was real life, a prudent person would need to have some concerns. That much is obvious. This is common sense.  

 

 "Or at least close enough not to make a difference."

 

This is a false syllogism. So I have to choose between being totally open to aliens and even give them my credit card data and email password or being xenophobic?  I think you´´ve been deluded by too much propaganda. You probably think that all the groups in europe who are for national identity preservation and against uncontrolled immigrations are all neo-nazis with a very evil agenda.

"Second, you're applying a blank statement to entire race, based on decision made by few privileged individuals and assuming that goes true for entire race, when we see in-game that is not true. That is it's own form of xenophobia."

 

As Udina (concerned about the reputation of humanity) himself says, and any grown-up person should know, recognize and accept as reality, we all get judged by how shepard behaves. That´s why they are called representatives. Take notice that the aliens themselves act in the same manner, looking down on the quarians after the geth fiasco. 

 

A little distrust is only natural an can maintain a balanced and healthy distance from rampat paranoia or xenophobia. If Japan attacks the USA, it´s normal for people and the authorities to be concerned about people related to Japan, instead of other isolated groups like the Peruvians, Colombians, Argentinians, French,  

I doubt you wanted to interrupt the Asari councilor and correct her when she said you represented everything good about humanity, since the people of earth were well represented by your paragon actions. You just moan whenever a representative of a race screws up and this give the group a bad rep. 

"And yeah, every alien race has it's share of problems and shortcomings. I am well aware of that. What most pro-human and renegade Shepards(and, sometimes, by extension, their players)"

 

This is actually a defficieny in the moral system of the game. Why can´t I be "wise as serpents, and harmless as doves"? In real life, I don´t have to be naive in order to be nice. There´s nothing wrong with taking precautions, specially with people you know little about and in a situations in which a turian (who tried to sabotage humanity in the past) just made an act of war and is being protected by the council. Trust me, I´m all for being paragon. And yet, I still lock my door and close my windows when I go to sleep. Do you?

 

Maybe you´re just paranoid (like your entire generation is being intimidated at becoming) for fear of being label close-minded, intolerant, bigoted or whatever, 

 

 "seem to forget is that all of alien races actually have legitimate grievances with humanity."

 

Well, I did not forget him. As I said in a previous message, humanity is not without fault, but you can see that the other races behave in this fashion even among themselves. 

 

 "We're brutish, we're temperamental, we go over bodies and trample everything in our way. In short, we're pretty ****** intimidating."

 

Now hold on! Did I just see you labeling humanity as a whole based on the actions of a few individuals and leaders? Hypocrisy of hypocrisies...

 

You wish to talk about intimidation?

 

Well, the Krogan were bred for war and have very impressive bodies. War is in their nature, and they will have no problem in telling this to your intimidated face.  

 

The Asari have the destiny ascention (talk about intimidation!) and natural biotic powers.

 

The turians, aside from being notorious as trigger-happy, have no problem with detonating a biological weapon capable of rendering a species nearly infertile.

The Salarians are very clever scientists, and are constantly involved in all kinds of illegal research. 

 

it seems to me that intimidation was the rule of the game being played for many centuries before humanity entered the table.