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Did you save the council?


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#76
SwobyJ

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geth47, I have some of my crazier ideas which involve ME1-3 being an at least partial lie (through various forms of illusion), and the next game showing us what really happened, during the time before the trilogy, and after it.

 

It would involve many of the things you listed.

 

So we play a character who can then choose to hold onto the illusions we cherish of ME1-3 (especially of the Paragon or 'Green' nature) and try to make them a reality - even with brutal means, or we can face the brutal truth and deal with it.

 

For example, what IF Liara is a liar, and a spy, and worse, but the later games just hid that all away from us? If we 'wake up' and come 'down to Earth' and see her for what she 'is', what would we do? Would we do anything - even highly unethical things - to bring back 'our' Liara, or would we clue into what she 'always was' and work with that, or even have to kill her?

 

If nothing else, this kind of concept is something I'd love to explore with my own writing and potential game development.



#77
Mordokai

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Now hold on! Did I just see you labeling humanity as a whole based on the actions of a few individuals and leaders? Hypocrisy of hypocrisies...

 

If you can do it then I can as well :)

 

 

Well, the Krogan were bred for war and have very impressive bodies. War is in their nature, and they will have no problem in telling this to your intimidated face.  

 

The Asari have the destiny ascention (talk about intimidation!) and natural biotic powers.

 

The turians, aside from being notorious as trigger-happy, have no problem with detonating a biological weapon capable of rendering a species nearly infertile.

The Salarians are very clever scientists, and are constantly involved in all kinds of illegal research.

 

But unlike all of those races, humanity has no natural benefits to speak of. We lack regeneration and redundant organ systems, we don't have natural armor plating or inborn intelligence and we're certainly not known for being naturally born biotics. Really, our only advantage is that we're able to breed with cockroach speed... which is also true for krogan, but again, they have other perks we're missing. Oh yeah, and the whole genophage thingie.

 

HumanRace.jpg

 

Also, they tell me Destiny Ascension can be destroyed by single saboteur. Surely it's not all that intimidating?



#78
Zazzerka

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Also, they tell me Destiny Ascension can be destroyed by single saboteur. Surely it's not all that intimidating?

 

What's more, it doesn't even have guns! It just floats around in space looking pretty.


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#79
Chocolina

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What's more, it doesn't even have guns! It just floats around in space looking pretty.

 

Are you talking about destiny ascension or the asari? x)

 

Anyway, my canon-shep saved the council.



#80
SporkFu

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Are you talking about destiny ascension or the asari? x)

 

Anyway, my canon-shep saved the council.

I was thinking the same thing, then I thought Samara might overhear. 



#81
Undead Han

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I saved them.

- the DA is the most powerful ship of the Council races; it could be useful
- I save 10000 crewmembers
- leaving a cloud of hostile Geth ships behind Hacketts fleet while trying to defeat an unknown dreadnought didn't sound like a smart tactical decision to me
- saving the DA ensures political stability
- I like the original councilors

 

This.



#82
teh DRUMPf!!

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 Well I had played ME2 a few times before ME1 and hated the crap I got in the vanilla game for not saving them, so when I saw that it was an option, I jumped.

 

 

That being said, it's probably not wise to take the focus off of Sovereign.



#83
masster blaster

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Saved the Council because, despite how critical it was to stop Nazara, and conserve our forces. I felt that saving the council was the right thing to do, Paragon, or Renegade Shepard. Not to mention the scene in saving the council so very well done. It is one of the main reasons why I replay mE1, and watch the clip on youtube.



#84
Farangbaa

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I pretty much always save the council; there's no need to antoganize the aliens more towards humans. 

 

But in my current playthrough they'll die. This Shepard also killed the Rachni Queen, something that doesn't usually happen.



#85
I Tsunayoshi I

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Is it over the mission? Did you stop fighting Sovereign and working to stop the Reapers?

I think ya goofed on that question. Fighting Sovereign is working to stop the Reapers, so nothing is changing in that regard.



#86
SwobyJ

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I think ya goofed on that question. Fighting Sovereign is working to stop the Reapers, so nothing is changing in that regard.

 

That was my point.

 

Putting less fire onto Sovereign isn't some kind of full sacrifice of fighting against the Reapers. All it does do, is show that your Shepard has others in mind, even at the potential cost of becoming a person who will end up not wiping the Reapers out (Full Paragon --> Control as the script goes - yes, even keeping ME2 into account), in the longer term of his journey. Or not. It's up to your RP. I'm Paragade, Saved Council, Destroyed Reapers. We have choice.

 

Shepard is a person who will always be in conflict against the Reapers until the very end (where yeah, Synthesis is an option instead). We can choose how dedicated he is to it (the 'fight' instead of just 'conflict'), but it doesn't change that he has dedication towards it regardless.



#87
cap and gown

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Nobody in this thread has pointed out that the Council gives Shepard a license to kill them. In the post-Virmire talk with the Council (assuming you don't hang up on them :) ) the Salarian Councilor says "If you believe Sovereign is the real threat you must take whatever steps you feel are necessary to deal with it and Saren." Shepard has been pre-cleared to kill the Council. :)


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#88
geth47

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Shepard did not really kill them. The geth heretics did it. Or better yet, the council´s own stupidity and inaction that did it. The Council and Udina would have the Normandy locked down and grounded. They would never reach Illos, would never know the truth and receive the means to foil Saren and Sovereign´s plan. 

 

The Salarian Councilor says that sometimes sacrifices have to be made in order to ensure the success of the mission and that Shepard must be ready in case this situation presents itself, for the greater good.  Well, to me at least, he just managed to write how own epitaph. Mission accomplished. 


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#89
cap and gown

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 The Council and Udina would have the Normandy locked down and grounded. They would never reach Illos, would never know the truth and receive the means to foil Saren and Sovereign´s plan. 

 

Actually, the Council was displaying its prescience there. They knew that it would have been better for everyone if Shepard had been having a drink at the embassy lounge when Saren came through the Conduit. Shepard could have stopped him before he even made it to the Council chamber. :P


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#90
The Don's Hound

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**** the Council.

 

I like the new ones.

 

That Asari was annoyingly passive.

 

But all of them are like that.

 

**** the Asari too.

 

Yeah.



#91
draken-heart

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HumanRace.jpg

 

 

This has to be from somewhere I do not get. But on topic, I usually save them, and do not know why.



#92
WraithTDK

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Bottom line for me is that a soldiers duty is to put civilian and non-military government lives before their own. If the president was in danger we wouldn't hesitate a moment to rescue him. I'm not going say screw 'em just because they're not human. 



#93
cap and gown

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Bottom line for me is that a soldiers duty is to put civilian and non-military government lives before their own. If the president was in danger we wouldn't hesitate a moment to rescue him. I'm not going say screw 'em just because they're not human. 

 

But if it was between saving the President, and saving the U.S. from destruction, I would save the U.S. There is a line of succession after all. And, as far as we know, if Sovereign succeeds then all organic life will be destroyed. So I think it makes sense to concentrate on Sovereign, not because I want the Council dead, but because it seems like if we don't take him down now, the Councilors (and everyone else) will be dead shortly anyway.


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#94
SporkFu

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From the talk with Udina and Anderson after it was all over, it appears my renegade shep let the council die in order to eliminate them as a roadblock to humanity's rise to power. The evil is strong in shep, and it sure shocked Anderson, heh.



#95
Thelegomarvelfan

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I saved the council. It just seemed like the right thing to do. 



#96
DeathScepter

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what is a moral thing to do is not always the right thing to do.


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#97
WraithTDK

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But if it was between saving the President, and saving the U.S. from destruction, I would save the U.S. There is a line of succession after all. And, as far as we know, if Sovereign succeeds then all organic life will be destroyed. So I think it makes sense to concentrate on Sovereign, not because I want the Council dead, but because it seems like if we don't take him down now, the Councilors (and everyone else) will be dead shortly anyway.

 

Except we know for a fact that saving council does not doom earth. You had more than enough firepower to take down sovereign and still save them.

 

So ultimately, you're saying your decision was based on poor tactical analysis. 



#98
cap and gown

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Except we know for a fact that saving council does not doom earth. You had more than enough firepower to take down sovereign and still save them.

 

So ultimately, you're saying your decision was based on poor tactical analysis. 

 

Your decision is based on meta-gaming. Your Shepard can see the future. Mine can't. My Shepard cannot know that we will be able to save the DA AND stop Sovereign. That is only revealed after the decision is made. As far as my non-meta-gamed Shepard knows, we will need all those Alliance ships to take down Sovereign.


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#99
capn233

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It is interesting that this discussion can go on 6 years after the game came out.

 

There isn't actually any way to know if you need whatever Alliance ships to take down Sovereign.  More importantly, it is impossible to know how many Council ships you can save, and how well whatever remnants can distract the Geth while the Alliance tries to "focus on Sovereign."



#100
geth47

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I take my decision based on the info the game provides. The squad-mates certainly know more than the player, and one of them will always suggest that you wait. 

 

In retrospect, during a replay, or knowing spoilers in advance, I do know that saving the council will be the right choice, the happiest ending, specially in the long run since it will improve humankind´s relations with other species, while at the same time advancing Earth in terms of power politically and diplomatically, even though the alliance will still suffer bigger losses militarily. But then, you don´t have to take a guess. There´s no risk involved, and the only reason why you still get a happy ending is because of an arbitrary decision by the writing staff. 

 

In a blind play, however, based only on the info the game provides, with no foreknowledge, waiting for a shot at the reaper seems like the wisest choice (and it doesn´t have to be cruel).That´s what I would have done if this was a real-life situation.  After all, the councilors themselves told me that: 1-The success of the mission was paramount. 2-Sometimes you need to make sacrifices for the greater good.  3-They had no problem in wanting me to exterminate the rachni, an entire species. So what, If I let a few thousands of asari to die in the DA as well as 3 moronic fools whose incompetence allowed this tragedy to take place when my character could have prevented if they did not try to sabotage and discredit him in every possible way? 4- They did not care about the human colonists, they did not care about the rachni. 5- The turian councilor even dare to insinuate (actually, it was a clear accusation) that my character jeopardized the mission while trying to save innocent controlled human colonists, and that I would go to any lengths to help humans. My shepard learned the lesson well from them, so now they can have a good taste of their own medicine. 

 

It wasn´t malevolence. I would have saved them, however, if I could know for certain that it was safe enough to divert human forces to eliminate the remaining geth and still have sufficient firepower to subsequently take down this gigantic dreadnought of unknown configuration likely to have immense defensive and offensive capabilities, and also do it fast enough before he/it can bypass the citadel controls and fill the sky with a few hundreds (and that´s being optimistic) of his friends, the army of sentient machines with a large track record of exterminating advanced galactic civilizations multiple times... There´s no room for mistakes here. If I waste resources now, and can not bring the reaper down, all hope is lost, not just for humanity, but for every advanced species in the galaxy in this cycle (and possibly others to come). There´s only one shot, so it has to be my best possible shot. It´s not much different than medical triage.

 

Frankly, I don´t even know how this matter can be polemic. Same thing goes for taking the collector base. If people hesitated to take it for fear that their equipment could indoctrinate people (well, we could always send simple remotely controlled robots now that we have the omega 4 relay) I could understand their reservations. Indoctrination could pose a really big dilemma.  But merely because it was tainted by innocent blood? Oh, come on! Can you imagine the police destroying, out of repulsiveness, important proofs taken from the lair of a serial killer in the form of annotations, film recordings and computer data that he had about torturing his victims? Or an international committee doing the same with info collected on a Nazi-prison camp? This whole reasoning of "abominable things happened here, so we must wipe everything out till no trace remains." is totally bankrupt and dumb. If one really cares about the colonists, then this person would try to salvage as much material and data as possible from the base and try to learn all one could about what they did, how they did, and why. 

 

If my shepard had unnecessarily and irresponsibly destroyed the base, not only he would have eliminated precious evidence about the barbaric atrocities by the collectors (that could help save lives), but this would be nothing less than a negligent crime by itself. It´s irrational.

 

I´m glad that there´s a way to let the council die (or better yet, leave them to their own luck and the fruits of their poor judgment, since they never counted on Alliance support anyway) without sounding merciless or sadistic. I don´t think it is a coincidence. It´s the place in which the lines of renegade and paragon converge. It´s common sense. You make the right tactical decision, but without being guided by evil emotions of revanchist sadism trying to  make them pay for what they did to you without ceasing to be noble nor heroic.

 

One can be innocent as a dove, but wise as a serpent. In real life people can be sensible, kind, altruistic, charitable, caring, decent, honest, and yet having the courage to make tough choices while being realistic, as well as being nobody´s fool. One should be able to play paragon without being dumb. 


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