167 réponses à ce sujet

[Vortex13]

main problem with having non-humanoid squadmates is the extra effort needed to animate them for all of the cutscenes. I barely know squat about animation, but I think it's fair to assume that it's easier to have a group of humans/quarians/krogansturians/asari/drell etc act out the same cutscenes with dynamic emotions and movements, than a group that also has elcor added to the mix.

 

 

This is true, having to animate a unique alien for conversations, walking, running, combat, and general full fledged companion/playable character actions is going to take more work then simply reusing 98% of all the 'human' animations for the other races. There is no doubt that getting an Elcor or Rachni to the same level as Turians or Humans is going to take some work. However, there are two pieces of information that make me believe that such an undertaking would be a feasible possibility rather than a pie in the sky pipe dream.

 

The first piece of information is the Frostbite 3 engine that is being used by all EA developers, from EA Sports and Dice, to BioWare and Visceral Games. All of these game devs are utilizing a common game engine, meaning that what is created by one party can be used by all others. The universality  of the Frostbite 3 engine allows for assets like animations, or effects can be dragged from one game to the next, and it will work. What this means is the basic level coding and animations, or even texturing is already done; being able to draw from a library of completed and compatible assets will cut down on time that would have been spent reinventing the wheel if a company like BioWare was working on their own or with a non-compatible game engine.

 

The second piece of information, which is more an extension to the first point, is that BioWare has gone on record as saying that Dragon Age: Inquisition, will be serving as the foundation for future BioWare titles; including the new Mass Effect title. So not only does BioWare have the advantage of using assets from all over EA, but they have the benefit of pulling from a game that is of the same genre. Being a story driven RPG, DA:I is going to have a lot in common with ME:Next, and with pretty much all of the groundwork; in terms of conversation trees, companion interaction, character customization, etc; already done BioWare can start to focus on adding in the extra features that would probably have been left on the cutting room floor. Things like non-humanoid animations, and separate gameplay mechanics. 

 

Also let us not forget that BioWare has already animated the Elcor and Rachni as NPCs and enemies in the previous ME games; building off their own work wouldn't be as hard as trying to make something from scratch.  

 

EDIT:

 

This is an article about Dragon Age: Inquisition, but there is a specific mention of the sharing of assets that applies to what I am getting at, and gives me more hope that we may actually see things like Elcor or Rachni squadmates.

 

http://www.rpgsite.n...eative-director

 

The part I am referring to I will paste below:

 

Spoiler

 

RPG Site: How much sharing goes on with Frostbite; to DICE, to the other Bioware teams...?

 

Laidlaw: Quite a lot, actually. We look at it as a sort of foundation platform. The DICE team has been very, very helpful, and... well, the Dragon Age team is responsible for a significant number of the check-ins that come back from external teams. 

 

A large part of that is because what we're doing is so different to the stuff you see in Battlefield. We're building tech that does different stuff, but does cool stuff. Other teams end up seeing what we've been building and saying 'Ooh, that would be great' and then using it. 

 

A classic example is we built a system by which we can set up a single scene, but characters can be varying heights. A dwarf is a very different height to a Qunari, for instance. With the system we built, that scene will operate; It might need a tiny bit of manual tweaking, but it'll out of the box, it works. That's a tough bit of tech, but we had a really good use case for it, we can test it, shake it down, check it into the mainline - and suddenly, hey - Frostbite's a better engine. 

 

So, yeah - it's definitely a very collaborative effort, especially within the other Bioware teams. We're laying groundwork here for systems that our style of game uses, but those teams are going to continue to evolve Frostbite over time.

 

 

/EDIT

 

Apart from the logistical side of things, there is also the story/marketing aspect to consider. How many other fictional settings (Sci-Fi in particular) have been seemingly populated by humans, and humans with a slight alteration to their appearance; like pointy ears, or forehead ridges? Like you said, its easier to create aliens that are (basically) human in appearance , but such a tactic doesn't really set your setting out from any of the others. Having an Elcor or Rachni as a major character, being able to see that the 'alien' does indeed exist, and can function in the galaxy would be more then what Star Wars or Star Trek has done. 

[katamuro]

It is a bit unrealistic to have Hanar and Elcor to have bigger roles. First of all their species profiles, culture and biology keeps most of them to their own planets, and as Elcor ambassador said in ME3 they fight using VI assisted guns mounted on their backs. While it sounds awesome can you imagine having one in your squad? Cant duck, cant do anything but blast away. As for Hanar, their physiology doesnt really allow for such combat as ME4 hero is supposed to be in, plus they probably need water much more than humans or other species. 

 

As for technical side while animating elcor is pretty simple imagine animating hanar with their tentacles. Its going to be a nightmare and simply isnt worth the resources. 

 

Otherwise they can always play bigger roles as either quest or information givers, or have Hanar/Elcor exclusive short plot line within the game. 

[Raizo]

I would settle for more less humanoid aliens in the next ME games and having them move around instead of standing still in one place.

It wasn't until ME3 when I saw Harrot walking around that the Elecor seemed like a proper alien species instead of a gimmick. As for the Hannar, there is just something about the standing position of all Hannar in the ME games which just doesn't work for me, 'they' are missing something to make them more life like, I need to see them walking around and interacting with stuff with their tentacles.

[Han Shot First]

I'd rather not have an Elcor companion though. I get what you're saying, and I agree, but I don't think I could listen for hours on end, an alien that speaks in monotone and takes his bloody time to do so xD

 

I like the Elcor but I also agree that they would be poorly suited to being a companion. Their slow and monotone way of speaking works because you only get it in small doses.

[Revan Reborn]

The biggest issue would be from a technological standpoint. Being able to convey a compelling experience with an elcor, for example, would be difficult due to the animation limitations. I couldn't see them being very interesting enemies due to their monotone composure and need to emphasize certain states of being through language. I also don't know exactly how one would fight due to the anatomy of their body. There are certain hurdles BioWare would need to overcome to make some of these species more viable. It's just common knowledge that humanoid species are easier to design, they work in the framework of the human skeleton, and animation is much more dynamic, diverse, and sophisticated.

[Drone223]

The biggest issue would be from a technological standpoint. Being able to convey a compelling experience with an elcor, for example, would be difficult due to the animation limitations. I couldn't see them being very interesting enemies due to their monotone composure and need to emphasize certain states of being through language. I also don't know exactly how one would fight due to the anatomy of their body. There are certain hurdles BioWare would need to overcome to make some of these species more viable. It's just common knowledge that humanoid species are easier to design, they work in the framework of the human skeleton, and animation is much more dynamic, diverse, and sophisticated.

This also regarding your elcor example they are better suited in a support role since they use VI mounted guns and are very slow and won't be able to dodge.

[Vortex13]

It is a bit unrealistic to have Hanar and Elcor to have bigger roles. First of all their species profiles, culture and biology keeps most of them to their own planets, and as Elcor ambassador said in ME3 they fight using VI assisted guns mounted on their backs. While it sounds awesome can you imagine having one in your squad? Cant duck, cant do anything but blast away.

 

Maybe most Elcor and Hanar would stay on their respective home worlds or colonies, but even 5% of a population of several billion is still a lot of Elcor and Hanar. We have see both Elcor and Hanar on the Citadel, as well as planets like Noveria, and places like Omega. Compared to other species, there might be fewer Elcor and/or Hanar in a particular location, but they are just as capable as the Humans, Turians, Salarians, or Asari at living in space stations, or on planets that don't match their home worlds. 

 

 

In regards to an Elcor squad-mate, yes they would be slower and less agile than their humanoid counter-parts but so is the Geth Juggernaut in ME 3's MP. I can see the use of an Elcor requiring a different set of tactics, but not necessarily something that would be a hinderance to gameplay; it would be a matter of asking if a player preferred to have a quick assault squad, or long range, heavy hitting artillery.

 

I would liken the use of an Elcor in combat to the S.H.I.V. robots in the new X-COM game (their tracked form anyways). In that game, if you chose to use the robotic units you would loose the advantage of being able to quickly cross an open field, but you would make up for that fact with a unit that could lay down devastating firepower and act as a form of mobile cover as it advanced. The Elcor obviously have a harden body due to their evolution on a high gravity world, and I would suspect that they employ larger than normal mass effect shield generators to make up for the fact that they are unable to quickly jump behind cover.

 

Plus, lets not forget that the Elcor carry the equivalent of a tank cannon on their backs. Can you imagine unleashing that on a dug in enemy fortification?

 

ME:Next Player Character: We're pinned down by that fire team! Pick your shots carefully, those bastards are dug in and behind cover!

 

BOOOM! [An explosion rocks the screen, up ahead you can see a massive explosion strike the wall that the enemies were using for cover which (thanks to the Frostbite 3 Engine) breaks and collapses, crushing a few of the fire team members and exposing the rest.

 

ME:Next Player Character: (Looks back to see his Elcor squad-mate with a still smoking barrel of his back mounted cannon)

 

Elcor Squad-mate: - Quizzically - What cover?

 

And this is not even accounting for an Elcor in melee range. They evolved on a planet with five times the Earth's gravity, what do you think will happen to a human (or human sized alien) if an Elcor had a grip on them and decided that he wanted to practice some long division?

 

 

 

As for Hanar, their physiology doesnt really allow for such combat as ME4 hero is supposed to be in, plus they probably need water much more than humans or other species. 

 

 

We don't really know what the Hanar's requirements are so we can't really disqualify them on that account. Now as for combat prowess, I will agree that they are not suited for direct combat in the human(oid) sense, but maybe that is because we are trying to view their prowess through the lens of what we would consider a biped would excel at, instead of looking at the Hanar's unique anatomy. 

 

For example, look at Blasto in the Citadel DLC and how he holds the guns in his cameo appearance. Now our first reaction (aside from realizing that the scene in question is intended to be comedic) would be to see how ineffectual Blasto is at holding the weapons, and we would then infer that Hanar cannot hold guns and be effective at ranged combat like us bipeds, but that is not looking at the 'big picture'. Sure a Hanar would suck at holding those guns, because they are designed with human(oid) ergonomics in mind. Who's to say that there aren't Hanar designed weapons that our brave Commander Shepard would have a hard time even holding, let alone shooting?

 

There is also the fact that the Hanar are the ones that trained the Drell as assassins, so they obviously have some methods of combating non-Hanar. Just because they use Drell as bodyguards and the like doesn't mean that they lack the ability to fight; more than likely (especially considering the Hanar's dual nature) they want to keep up the appearance that they are helpless, and cause would-be attackers to under-estimate them. Zaeed made mention of the fact that he was almost strangled to death by a Hanar, so it seems more likely that the Hanar are capable of fighting, they just choose not to.

 

 

As for technical side while animating elcor is pretty simple imagine animating hanar with their tentacles. Its going to be a nightmare and simply isnt worth the resources. 

 

Otherwise they can always play bigger roles as either quest or information givers, or have Hanar/Elcor exclusive short plot line within the game. 

 

 

Animation-wise, I will agree that a Hanar might be too intensive for the upcoming title, maybe future games can build upon ME:Next and we can see fully implemented Hanar in ME 5 or 6. I agree, that at the very least, a non squad-mate companion like Cortez or Tryanor should be a Hanar that is used in a serious take on their species. Perhaps as an information dealer, or a disgraced politician, using his various contacts to help the player character on the political/diplomatic side of things. 

 

Elcor and the Rachni though, they are more than capable of being full fledged companions, or at the very least, playable MP options (IMO).

[Farangbaa]

Hanar are completely useless outside of the water. Yes, they could strangle you. Whooptiedoo, they need to get that close first, and will be shot before.

Unless the game comes with some scent-disperser, communication with the Rachni squadmate will be difficult. Unless you have a direct line to the Queen...

Elcor getting a grip on you might be scary, but they are not fast enough to grab anything. They are incapable of moving fast in any way whatsoever, their physiology does not allow it.

Unless these species are retconned completely, they are not fit to be your squadmates.

I can understand wanting the Rachni squadmate btw, but the Hanar and Elcor would get annoying so fast:

'This one is hurt!'
'Agonizingly, I need medigel'

That's fun for like 5 minutes and then you want to kill them.

[Vortex13]

Hanar are completely useless outside of the water. Yes, they could strangle you. Whooptiedoo, they need to get that close first, and will be shot before.

 

That would be ignoring the fact that Hanar can and (considering the hostile nature of the galaxy) would have developed ranged weapons of their own. It would be an incredible underestimation of the Hanar to assume that they would be incapable of designing their own combat technology; specifically adapted to their anatomy.

 

 

 

Unless the game comes with some scent-disperser, communication with the Rachni squadmate will be difficult. Unless you have a direct line to the Queen...

 

 

I would picture that any Rachni squad-mate would either have a direct link to the Queen or would have a high degree of individual sentience herself (like a young Queen maybe). The lore says that there were multiple Queens active on the Rachni home world during the time of the Rachni Wars, so its obvious that two or more leaders of the Rachni hive mind can co-operate. I can picture a Royal scout drone, or a young Queen potentially allying themselves with the player character in order to look for suitable worlds to establish new Hives on, or to try and understand the other races of the galaxy (kind of like an Organic version of Legion). 

 

 

Elcor getting a grip on you might be scary, but they are not fast enough to grab anything. They are incapable of moving fast in any way whatsoever, their physiology does not allow it.

 

I don't think that the use of the word incapable in regards to the Elcor's movement means that it would be impossible for them to maintain short bursts of speed; just that they never really evolved the need to run for great lengths of time. Obviously, we can go back and debate the semantics of the wording in the lore, but consider the fact that humans are incapable of breathing underwater (without technological assistance) but that doesn't stop us from diving under the surface for short periods of time.

 

Or consider that a Sloth; when confronted with danger; is capable of moving quickly to either flee or attack what is threatening it:

 

 http://news.mongabay.com/2009/1025-hance_voirin.html

 

Spoiler

 

An excerpt from the article I linked:

 

Voirin says. "In photos they look a lot like a teddy bear, but in reality they have sharp claws that can do some serious damage. They can move quick when they want to, and they are not defenseless. People always laugh when I tell them I have scars all over my arms from sloths, but it's true. They can definitely hurt you." 
 

 

 

I say that the same thing applies to the Elcor. Now that doesn't mean that I expect to see a cross country sprinter out of the species, but if they are in a combat situation, and the options are run to avoid danger or die, I think that they will chose the former.

 

In melee combat, I would surmise that an Elcor; particularly one fighting for its life; could probably stand toe-to-toe with a Krogan; perhaps even have a slight advantage due to their immense muscles, dense bone structure and added stability of their quadruped form. I don't expect to see many melee engagements however, seeing as how their long ranged attacks would be divesting to anyone trying to close in on them, and their hulking size, and extra shielding (a conclusion based on the Elcors' desire to offset their slow speed overall) would allow them to take considerable punishment before falling.

 

 

Unless these species are retconned completely, they are not fit to be your squadmates.

I can understand wanting the Rachni squadmate btw, but the Hanar and Elcor would get annoying so fast:

'This one is hurt!'
'Agonizingly, I need medigel'

That's fun for like 5 minutes and then you want to kill them.

 

 

 

I don't see any retcons needed for any of the three species I have listed; an expansion of their individual lore perhaps, but there has been no evidence to the contrary. Granted the whole 'incapable' portion of the Elcor is grounds for debate, but I have made my case earlier in my post.

 

As far as the Hanar and Elcor speech patterns go, I would like to point out the Elcor diplomat in ME 3. When questioned by Shepard as to how many people they were able to evacuate from Dekuna, the diplomat replies "Not enough" no declarative descriptor in front of that statement, just two words that convey the gravity of the situation. With proper writing, an Elcor or Hanar doesn't need to have a wide variety of inflection to get a strong point across. If we are dealing with a close friend the Elcor might drop the descriptors and just speak in monotone (not unlike Legion and the Geth). A Hanar that considers the PC to be a dear friend might give their soul name to the player, dropping the 'polite' face name. Etc. 

[Farangbaa]

That would be ignoring the fact that Hanar can and (considering the hostile nature of the galaxy) would have developed ranged weapons of their own. It would be an incredible underestimation of the Hanar to assume that they would be incapable of designing their own combat technology; specifically adapted to their anatomy.

Hanar can't hold a gun, period, unless it is ridiculously low on weight.
 

The hanar "stand" slightly taller than a human, although most of their height is in their long tentacles. The invertebrate, water-native hanar cannot support their own weight in normal gravity. When interacting with mainstream galactic society, they rely on contra-gravitic levitation packs that use mass effect fields. Their limbs can grip tightly, but are not strong enough to lift more than a few hundred grams each. Hanar also possess the ability to secrete natural toxins.

 
 

I would picture that any Rachni squad-mate would either have a direct link to the Queen or would have a high degree of individual sentience herself (like a young Queen maybe). The lore says that there were multiple Queens active on the Rachni home world during the time of the Rachni Wars, so its obvious that two or more leaders of the Rachni hive mind can co-operate. I can picture a Royal scout drone, or a young Queen potentially allying themselves with the player character in order to look for suitable worlds to establish new Hives on, or to try and understand the other races of the galaxy (kind of like an Organic version of Legion).

Squadmate havind direct link to the Queen solves nothing. You can't speak to your squadmate nor the Queen, and neither can they do speak to you, only to each other. Besides, all Rachni have this direct link to the Queen by means of biological QEC.

I don't think the Queens have the pysical attributes necessary to be of any use during combat.

Your friendly neighbourhood Queen leading an army of Rachni for you, that I can see happen. All that other stuff I don't.
 

I don't think that the use of the word incapable in regards to the Elcor's movement means that it would be impossible for them to maintain short bursts of speed; just that they never really evolved the need to run for great lengths of time. Obviously, we can go back and debate the semantics of the wording in the lore, but consider the fact that humans are incapable of breathing underwater (without technological assistance) but that doesn't stop us from diving under the surface for short periods of time.
 
Or consider that a Sloth; when confronted with danger; is capable of moving quickly to either flee or attack what is threatening it:
 
 http://news.mongabay.com/2009/1025-hance_voirin.html
 

Spoiler

 
An excerpt from the article I linked:
 
Voirin says. "In photos they look a lot like a teddy bear, but in reality they have sharp claws that can do some serious damage. They can move quick when they want to, and they are not defenseless. People always laugh when I tell them I have scars all over my arms from sloths, but it's true. They can definitely hurt you." [/size]
 

 
 
I say that the same thing applies to the Elcor. Now that doesn't mean that I expect to see a cross country sprinter out of the species, but if they are in a combat situation, and the options are run to avoid danger or die, I think that they will chose the former.
 
In melee combat, I would surmise that an Elcor; particularly one fighting for its life; could probably stand toe-to-toe with a Krogan; perhaps even have a slight advantage due to their immense muscles, dense bone structure and added stability of their quadruped form. I don't expect to see many melee engagements however, seeing as how their long ranged attacks would be divesting to anyone trying to close in on them, and their hulking size, and extra shielding (a conclusion based on the Elcors' desire to offset their slow speed overall) would allow them to take considerable punishment before falling.

 
That's all fine and dandy, but we're not fighting 1 minute long fights here. None of the examples you provide can be willfully and consciously sustained for a longer time. We're fighting prolonged battles where such fight-or-flight responses should be suppressed.
 

I don't see any retcons needed for any of the three species I have listed; an expansion of their individual lore perhaps, but there has been no evidence to the contrary. Granted the whole 'incapable' portion of the Elcor is grounds for debate, but I have made my case earlier in my post.

I do.

 

And no more squadmates with individual exceptional lore, please. We already had the "I'm nothing like the other Turians'-Garrus, "I'm nothing like the other Quarians"-Tali, "I'm nothing like the other Krogans"-Wrex (ME1/2 version), Grunt ("Look at me, I was made in a tank!") and Legion (1100 something Geth-in-1). Give me aliens that are truely alien and alike what their species should be like, and not humans in a funny costume who are nothing like the aliens they should represent.

 

What you're proposing goes farther, you're going to purposely bend/break the lore to make it possible at all for them to be squadmates.
 

As far as the Hanar and Elcor speech patterns go, I would like to point out the Elcor diplomat in ME 3. When questioned by Shepard as to how many people they were able to evacuate from Dekuna, the diplomat replies "Not enough" no declarative descriptor in front of that statement, just two words that convey the gravity of the situation. With proper writing, an Elcor or Hanar doesn't need to have a wide variety of inflection to get a strong point across. If we are dealing with a close friend the Elcor might drop the descriptors and just speak in monotone (not unlike Legion and the Geth). A Hanar that considers the PC to be a dear friend might give their soul name to the player, dropping the 'polite' face name. Etc.

I can live with this, though I think the Elcor Diplomat at the Embassies in ME3 is a mistake on Bioware's behalf.

[SporkFu]

Hanar can't hold a gun, period, unless it is ridiculously low on weight.

[Farangbaa]

Stage props, near weightless I presume.

[Azmahoony]

Blasto for main protagonist.

[KaiserShep]

That would be ignoring the fact that Hanar can and (considering the hostile nature of the galaxy) would have developed ranged weapons of their own. It would be an incredible underestimation of the Hanar to assume that they would be incapable of designing their own combat technology; specifically adapted to their anatomy.

 

The hanar wouldn't waste time trying to make their own into combatants on the ground. That's what the drell are for. Beyond that, they'd simply use mechs, automation and good old fashioned bombing the sh*t out of things from orbit. If we see the hanar taking a larger role in a military sense, we'd see ships, perhaps fighter craft and the sort.

 

Worse has happened, though, like those stupid volus in multiplayer.

[SporkFu]

Stage props, near weightless I presume.

shep:...and the fact that you've got Replica written down the side of your guns... 

*Zoom in on the side of Blasto's gun, which indeed has 'REPLICA' etched on the side; zoom out, as they sneak peeks at the sides of their guns*

shep: And the fact that I've got M-6 Carnifex... 

*Withdraws his gun and puts it on the table. They look, zoom in on the side of his gun, which indeed has 'M-6 CARNIFEX' etched on the side*

shep: ...written down the side of mine, should precipitate your uhh, tentacles into shrinking, along with your presence. Now... F*** off! 

[KaiserShep]

Bullet-tooth Shepard has a nice ring to it.

[Vortex13]

Hanar can't hold a gun, period, unless it is ridiculously low on weight.

 

 

And in an age of Mass Effect technologies that would not be a problem. Who's to say that a Hanar weapon couldn't be constructed out of ultra, ultra lightweight materials, or even failing that, employ its own built in mass effect field to lower the weight?

 

Also, the weapons that the Hanar could possibly use wouldn't have to be reliant on propelling a metal slug at a target. There are many ways that technology could be used to injure or kill opponents. Maybe the Hanar have access to a directional, high waveband microwave emitter, something that will cause intense irritation on lower settings, and will outright cook people from the inside out on lethal settings?

 

 

Squadmate having direct link to the Queen solves nothing. You can't speak to your squadmate nor the Queen, and neither can they do speak to you, only to each other. Besides, all Rachni have this direct link to the Queen by means of biological QEC.

I don't think the Queens have the pysical attributes necessary to be of any use during combat.

Your friendly neighbourhood Queen leading an army of Rachni for you, that I can see happen. All that other stuff I don't.

 

 

You can speak to the Rachni; the Queen could understand Shepard just fine; its just that the Rachni talking back in a way that we can understand, that would require an intermediate. Now we have see that the Rachni possess the ability to speak through a host; either willing or near death; although the mechanics of that little power are rather vague. It wouldn't be any stretch of the existing lore to say that a Rachni squad-mate could either use: 

 

• A host as a speaker. Think of an NPC like Kelly Chambers who's only purpose is to allow the Rachni and the PC to talk. This NPC would be more useful in-between missions, where the investigation dialogue, and exploration of the companion characters takes place. This could help open up an interesting take on human (assuming the PC is human again) and alien outlooks. The PC could feel that the Rachni are doing something 'unnatural' to the speaker but the Rachni could explain that the exchange is willing, and that both it and the speaker benefit from the interaction. Think of the potential interaction as an expansion of the scene from ME 2 on Illium where Shepard meets the Asari in the Queen's service. 

 

• Being given a technological means of communication in the form of a VI translation device. This may sound like a copout, but consider the fact that Rachni employ a biological QEC and that a technological QEC is a relatively new piece of technology. In ME 2, very few people had access to a QEC, and even Shepard didn't know what they were the first time they were mentioned. Carry this forward into ME 3, and while a little more widespread, QECs are seemingly reserved for military and high level political use; not something the everyman would have access to. What I am getting at here is that the uses of QEC technology are still in an early stage of development, who's to say that, as the technology improves that a Rachni couldn't 'tune in' to a specific communicator? Again, this might sound like a copout, but it would be no different then having all the aliens in the setting speak the same language as the humans. Having a Rachni translator VI would be no more of a stretch, than no one questioning how Shepard can carry on a conversation with an Asari, Salarian, and a Krogan, and have all of them understanding each other.

 

As far as combat prowess is concerned, you have a species that doesn't rely on on fabricated weapons or armor, and is still capable of fighting on even ground with species that do use fabricated weapons and armor, not to mention that Rachni do posses biotic abilities. It is not a retcon to say that Rachni Queens or certain specialized Drones have capabilities that go beyond the average Rachni soldier; things like a more hardened exoskeleton, or backup organs etc. Even our own terrestrial ants and bees have such variation (granted nothing as extreme, but hey this is a Sci-Fi game  ).

 

That's all fine and dandy, but we're not fighting 1 minute long fights here. None of the examples you provide can be willfully and consciously sustained for a longer time. We're fighting prolonged battles where such fight-or-flight responses should be suppressed.

 

Which would go back to the Elcor being a walking tank first and foremost. Shepard and Co. were not flat out sprinting for five minutes every time they engaged in a fight. In fact the only running that was required was moving from cover to cover, and that was needed because Shepard and Co. wouldn't last as long under fire like an Elcor would. My position is that an Elcor can (if required) move at a faster pace than walking, but none of the firefights in the game required players to sprint more than five to ten seconds when dashing between cover. Even the bigger areas of the games provided players with a means of traveling the distance quickly in the form of the Mako (which if its big enough to hold Wrex suited up in full combat gear then it can hold an Elcor).

 

We should also consider that the Elcor's standard walking speed is greater then that of a human's, simply due to the Elcor's larger size and longer stride. At the very least I would surmise that an Elcor walking would be on par with a human that was power walking, which would be more than enough speed to keep pace with the player as they are moving in-between battles, or walking around a non-combat zone like a Hub World (Citadel, Omega, etc.).

 

I do.

 

And no more squadmates with individual exceptional lore, please. We already had the "I'm nothing like the other Turians'-Garrus, "I'm nothing like the other Quarians"-Tali, "I'm nothing like the other Krogans"-Wrex (ME1/2 version), Grunt ("Look at me, I was made in a tank!") and Legion (1100 something Geth-in-1). Give me aliens that are truely alien and alike what their species should be like, and not humans in a funny costume who are nothing like the aliens they should represent.

 

What you're proposing goes farther, you're going to purposely bend/break the lore to make it possible at all for them to be squadmates.

 

 

I agree that special snowflake characters are a staple of BioWare's narratives, but I personally don't see how trying to show various species in a multifaceted light is bending the lore, unless we consider that only humanity is allowed to have individuals with widely different talents, skills, and personalities.

 

I personally find it annoying when we are presented with a mono-cultured/political (any other term you like) alien species; "Oh look, its the warrior race.", "Oh look, its the logical race." "Oh look, its the race comprised of nothing but bankers and merchants." etc. and yet humans have multiple cultures, varying political views, and the capacity to work in many areas and professions. 

 

Why can't the Elcor have people that want to be explorers, or individuals that train in military combat? Why can't certain Hanar have personal defense training, or make use of Hanar design weapons? It's okay to see humans that can be soldiers, businessmen, politicians, explorers, scientists, entertainers, etc. but its not okay to assume that races like the Elcor and Hanar might be just as varied? I don't like the aliens as rubber masked humans either, but I also think it is just as limiting to assume that only one facet dominates an alien species, but humanity is special.  

 

Plus the lore has already alluded to variety in the Elcor species at least; in ME 1 (I believe) there is mention of an Elcor serial killer operating on the Citadel. So its not like having characters that are outside the stereotype is something new.

 

 

I can live with this, though I think the Elcor Diplomat at the Embassies in ME3 is a mistake on Bioware's behalf.

 

If you don't mind me asking, why do you think this was a mistake?

[Farangbaa]

And in an age of Mass Effect technologies that would not be a problem. Who's to say that a Hanar weapon couldn't be constructed out of ultra, ultra lightweight materials, or even failing that, employ its own built in mass effect field to lower the weight?
 
Also, the weapons that the Hanar could possibly use wouldn't have to be reliant on propelling a metal slug at a target. There are many ways that technology could be used to injure or kill opponents. Maybe the Hanar have access to a directional, high waveband microwave emitter, something that will cause intense irritation on lower settings, and will outright cook people from the inside out on lethal settings?

That could very well be.
 
 

You can speak to the Rachni; the Queen could understand Shepard just fine; its just that the Rachni talking back in a way that we can understand, that would require an intermediate. Now we have see that the Rachni possess the ability to speak through a host; either willing or near death; although the mechanics of that little power are rather vague. It wouldn't be any stretch of the existing lore to say that a Rachni squad-mate could either use:

• A host as a speaker. Think of an NPC like Kelly Chambers who's only purpose is to allow the Rachni and the PC to talk. This NPC would be more useful in-between missions, where the investigation dialogue, and exploration of the companion characters takes place. This could help open up an interesting take on human (assuming the PC is human again) and alien outlooks. The PC could feel that the Rachni are doing something 'unnatural' to the speaker but the Rachni could explain that the exchange is willing, and that both it and the speaker benefit from the interaction. Think of the potential interaction as an expansion of the scene from ME 2 on Illium where Shepard meets the Asari in the Queen's service. 

• Being given a technological means of communication in the form of a VI translation device. This may sound like a copout, but consider the fact that Rachni employ a biological QEC and that a technological QEC is a relatively new piece of technology. In ME 2, very few people had access to a QEC, and even Shepard didn't know what they were the first time they were mentioned. Carry this forward into ME 3, and while a little more widespread, QECs are seemingly reserved for military and high level political use; not something the everyman would have access to. What I am getting at here is that the uses of QEC technology are still in an early stage of development, who's to say that, as the technology improves that a Rachni couldn't 'tune in' to a specific communicator? Again, this might sound like a copout, but it would be no different then having all the aliens in the setting speak the same language as the humans. Having a Rachni translator VI would be no more of a stretch, than no one questioning how Shepard can carry on a conversation with an Asari, Salarian, and a Krogan, and have all of them understanding each other.

As far as combat prowess is concerned, you have a species that doesn't rely on on fabricated weapons or armor, and is still capable of fighting on even ground with species that do use fabricated weapons and armor, not to mention that Rachni do posses biotic abilities. It is not a retcon to say that Rachni Queens or certain specialized Drones have capabilities that go beyond the average Rachni soldier; things like a more hardened exoskeleton, or backup organs etc. Even our own terrestrial ants and bees have such variation (granted nothing as extreme, but hey this is a Sci-Fi game  ).

This is all fine and dandy, but this is not the kind of communication you want on the battlefield, having to reroute through another person to talk to something that will relay the message to something else that can't directly get back to, so you reroute it through the other again.. and ugh, that's just messy. On the battlefield you give orders directly.

Which would go back to the Elcor being a walking tank first and foremost. Shepard and Co. were not flat out sprinting for five minutes every time they engaged in a fight. In fact the only running that was required was moving from cover to cover, and that was needed because Shepard and Co. wouldn't last as long under fire like an Elcor would. My position is that an Elcor can (if required) move at a faster pace than walking, but none of the firefights in the game required players to sprint more than five to ten seconds when dashing between cover. Even the bigger areas of the games provided players with a means of traveling the distance quickly in the form of the Mako (which if its big enough to hold Wrex suited up in full combat gear then it can hold an Elcor).

Even if, under high pressure an Elcor can move at fast speeds (compared to Elcor normal speeds... this is not in any way fast compared to a human), he could not wilfully, purposely and consciously sustain this level of performance.

An Elcor would never, even under the highest of pressures, be able to move at the speed of a human, not even if his life depended on it.

We should also consider that the Elcor's standard walking speed is greater then that of a human's, simply due to the Elcor's larger size and longer stride. At the very least I would surmise that an Elcor walking would be on par with a human that was power walking, which would be more than enough speed to keep pace with the player as they are moving in-between battles, or walking around a non-combat zone like a Hub World (Citadel, Omega, etc.).

No we should not, there's no reason to assume this.

Maybe you should read up on why they move so slowly.
 

I agree that special snowflake characters are a staple of BioWare's narratives, but I personally don't see how trying to show various species in a multifaceted light is bending the lore, unless we consider that only humanity is allowed to have individuals with widely different talents, skills, and personalities.
 
I personally find it annoying when we are presented with a mono-cultured/political (any other term you like) alien species; "Oh look, its the warrior race.", "Oh look, its the logical race." "Oh look, its the race comprised of nothing but bankers and merchants." etc. and yet humans have multiple cultures, varying political views, and the capacity to work in many areas and professions. 
 
Why can't the Elcor have people that want to be explorers, or individuals that train in military combat? Why can't certain Hanar have personal defense training, or make use of Hanar design weapons? It's okay to see humans that can be soldiers, businessmen, politicians, explorers, scientists, entertainers, etc. but its not okay to assume that races like the Elcor and Hanar might be just as varied? I don't like the aliens as rubber masked humans either, but I also think it is just as limiting to assume that only one facet dominates an alien species, but humanity is special.  
 
Plus the lore has already alluded to variety in the Elcor species at least; in ME 1 (I believe) there is mention of an Elcor serial killer operating on the Citadel. So its not like having characters that are outside the stereotype is something new.

I agree, but it is super peculiar that the PC always runs into those kind of aliens that are more human than alien. You never have an alien in your squad that does something you simply cannot wrap your head around, but is totally normal to that alien.

All your alien squadmates (except ME2 Legion) want the things humans want, like the things humans like etc. 
 

If you don't mind me asking, why do you think this was a mistake?

Because it's the only instance in the game where an Elcor doesn't say how he feels first.

[SporkFu]

Because it's the only instance in the game where an Elcor doesn't say how he feels first.

Not a mistake. The diplomat actually conveyed emotional inflection in his voice when he said, "Not enough."

 

He choked up. It was inconsistent with Elcor behavior but it was deliberate. 

[Vortex13]

This is all fine and dandy, but this is not the kind of communication you want on the battlefield, having to reroute through another person to talk to something that will relay the message to something else that can't directly get back to, so you reroute it through the other again.. and ugh, that's just messy. On the battlefield you give orders directly.

 

 

Don't forget the potential of use VI translators for the Rachni in question. Also, even without technological assistance, or a 'speaker' the Rachni have been shown to be capable of understanding what other species are saying to them. 

 

Yelling out "Take Cover!" or "Cover our Flanks!" is more of a one sided conversation anyway; as long as the Rachni can understand and obey the commands; there is really no need for it to answer back.

 

 

Even if, under high pressure an Elcor can move at fast speeds (compared to Elcor normal speeds... this is not in any way fast compared to a human), he could not wilfully, purposely and consciously sustain this level of performance.

An Elcor would never, even under the highest of pressures, be able to move at the speed of a human, not even if his life depended on it.

Maybe you should read up on why they move so slowly.

 

 

I know why they move slowly, but I also know that the Elcor were a tribe based culture; deferring to their elders' guidance to keep them safe from danger. Now why would they need to look to older Elcor for instruction if the only danger on Dekuna was a high gravity? Its obvious that primitive Elcor had predators, and it would stand to reason that those Elcor that had the capability to flee danger the quickest, would live the longest.

 

If the Elcor truly had completely evolved to avoid death from high gravity, then they would have been low, squat, blobs. Their large frame and long limbs suggest that that is not the case.

 

I am not saying that an Elcor will be able to out sprint a human in a foot race, just that in life or death situations, they are capable of bursts of speed. And as far as walking is concerned, I would imagine that an Elcor has several degrees of walking; much like us humans. Their top speed may not be as quick as ours, and they may not sustain their version of a sprint for very long, but they will defiantly have more modes of walking than just 'molasses in winter' slow.

 

I agree, but it is super peculiar that the PC always runs into those kind of aliens that are more human than alien. You never have an alien in your squad that does something you simply cannot wrap your head around, but is totally normal to that alien.

 

I would say that a Rachni would fit your description pretty well, their hive mind has colored their perception of the galaxy. They have no special regards for the individual; apart from the Queens; but they cherish their young, the Queens sing to them.

 

That's a fairly alien outlook (IMO); the individual is just part of a greater whole, but even the mighty Queen is saddened by the loss of even the lowliest drone. 

Because it's the only instance in the game where an Elcor doesn't say how he feels first.

 

 

I don't feel that was a mistake on BioWare's part. In fact I would submit that exchange; small as it may be; was actually one of the (very) few times that ME 3 portrayed the non-humanoid species in something other than a butt of a joke. The Elcor don't need to pre-fix everything, they just do it for other species benefit. The gravity of the Reaper invasion, and the fact that everyone in the galaxy was fighting for their very existence meant that further clarification wasn't needed.

 

The beauty of that scene (if you pardon the descriptor) is that even with the dull monotone that the Elcor speak with, I could feel the ambassador's sorrow at the loss of his people.

[SwobyJ]

All of the Elcor and Hanar 'problems' can be solved by potential high technology that may exist in the next game.

 

Too slow? Tech.

Not agile enough? Tech.

Weapon weight? Tech.

Defenses? Tech (armor! lol Citadel DLC)

Translations? Tech.

 

So yeah hypothetically anything could happen, and for the sake of variety, I hope it does. I brought up the possibility of a Geth platform joining Shepard to a friend playing ME1 at my place and she utterly balked at the thought. She wanted them all dead and saw nothing that could relate to the organic characters on the ME1 team.

I know Geth are a race that can fight right from the onset, but I'm just commenting on the lack of imagination. It's like, if there wasn't imagination for scientific advancement in the MEU, Volus would still be stuck on their planet (or planets very similar to their home) because none would think of having pressurized suits to accommodate them elsewhere.

 

Bioware games are also often games of outliers. A smaller Elcor or a more capable Hanar, with their own personalities... that's all possible. Bioware also has a thing for surprising people with things about new characters, and whether that involves Elcor or Hanar or whatever, I'm sure something will happen in the next game that'll have people freaking out and writing long threads about how it just cannot be.

 

~~~

 

And yeah I think Zaeed could have been great as Batarian. Bonus points for doing Arrival and having a special dialog with him about it that may require a persuasion check to keep him/his Loyalty.

[Vortex13]

So yeah hypothetically anything could happen, and for the sake of variety, I hope it does. I brought up the possibility of a Geth platform joining Shepard to a friend playing ME1 at my place and she utterly balked at the thought. She wanted them all dead and saw nothing that could relate to the organic characters on the ME1 team.

I know Geth are a race that can fight right from the onset, but I'm just commenting on the lack of imagination. It's like, if there wasn't imagination for scientific advancement in the MEU, Volus would still be stuck on their planet (or planets very similar to their home) because none would think of having pressurized suits to accommodate them elsewhere.

 

Bioware games are also often games of outliers. A smaller Elcor or a more capable Hanar, with their own personalities... that's all possible. Bioware also has a thing for surprising people with things about new characters, and whether that involves Elcor or Hanar or whatever, I'm sure something will happen in the next game that'll have people freaking out and writing long threads about how it just cannot be.

 

 

I agree, there needs to be more variety in the setting. Something more than just having the different (non-humanoid) aliens as a 'display piece'; i.e. Elcor only being seen in a hub world either as a merchant or as a sic-fi version of Where's Waldo.

 

An article I was reading summed up my general stance on the matter perfectly:

 

This, in part, stems from the fact that humans have never made contact with aliens, so we’re maybe a teensy bit lacking in the reference materials department. Also, we’re terrible at understanding (let alone conceiving of) things that aren’t just like us, so we tend not to try.

 

The result? So-called “aliens” that walk like us, talk like us, and never stop doing calibrations like us while we silently, painfully pine for their bizarrely species-compatible affections.

 

Don’t get me wrong: humanoid aliens have their place, but they hardly constitute boldly going where no man has gone before.

[Vortex13]

The recent announcement of MP for DA:I has me excited for the possibilities of what we can expect to see in ME:Next, specifically increased player customization as well as playable races like the Elcor and Rachni.

 

The ME team trying to create a playable Rachni option in a vacuum would most likely never happen; I will agree; but with the inter-dependability of the developers using the Frostbite 3 engine, means that all of the groundwork has already been done. Instead of spending resources to create a deeper MP progression and customization system, they can use the work that has already been completed in DAMP and build off of that. 

 

With the time saved in those areas, maybe (hopefully) we can see the ME MP team focus in other areas of the game; areas like character options which will (hopefully) include the non-humanoid races.

[ZipZap2000]

Sporkfu made me run out of likes again.

[Drone223]

I agree it would be great to see these races have a bigger role in future titles but as squad mates? I don't think it'll work since in the lore they are clearly dependent on automated systems and the turian's for their protection and their armed forces are very small and are more of a support role. There are also technical reason's why it won't happen such as the animation involved being too time consuming.