46 réponses à ce sujet

[Cobra's_back]

During the Night Terrors Quest we found the following:

 

Caress in Feynriel’s Desires:

 

Desire demon will win over in this order first Isabella and second Aveline no one else.

 

Wryme in Feynriel’s Pride:

 

Pride demon will win over in this order first Merrill, second Fenris and third Varric no one else.

 

 

So what was the probability Merrill wasn’t going to get possessed if Keeper Marethari didn’t sacrifice herself?

 

I know why Merrill wanted the mirror but I don’t think she could have resisted a pride demon. Isn’t a pride demon one of the most power demons? Didn't the Pride demon want to be released?

[thats1evildude]

Moderate. If the demon did intend to use the Eluvian as a means to free itself, it certainly might have tried to possess Merrill, but she may have resisted. End-game Merrill is far stronger than Act 1 Merrill.

[Corker]

I love Merrill. She is my favorite DA2 companion. She's capable, intelligent, observant, kind, thinks outside of the box. And, I think, in way over her head.

I've never seen any reason to doubt the demonic plan Marethari lays out. It's true that Merrill takes Hawke with her to Sundermount to kill her in case she gets possessed, but Audacity's plan never was to do the possession there in the cave. Merrill has always worked on the mirror alone, and I've got no reason to think she'd do otherwise after returning to the Alienage.

We know the mirrors function as portals. It seems entirely likely to me that Audacity could give instructions to "fix" the mirror in a way that linked it to his prison, allowing his escape.

That said, I always thought he'd escape a la the Baroness in Awakening - without the need for a host - and just straight-up kill Merrill rather than possess her. Possession would still require her consent. Escape via the eluvian would not.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

 Merrill never clearly tells us how she's going to get the information she needs, but I figure it would have been some sort of blood-magic ritual, hence the fear of being possessed.

 

And, I think she would have gotten what she needed, but as a trap: the pride-demon would have given her what she needed to make it work, but not without first getting her connect it to his prison and release himself. So, perhaps not possession, but still great danger to many.

 

 

*edit* ninja'd by Corker.

[ShadowLordXII]

There's a strong possibility that Merrill would've been alright considering her growth from Act 1 to Act 3 in terms of both knowledge and power. Plus, Merrill would've had Hawke and two others around, so it's not like she'd be completely helpless.

 

It kind of renders Marethari as an idiot for meddling and potentially getting her clan killed as a result.

[Rhifox]

Highly unlikely she would have resisted. She already displays huge amounts of pride ("no one else understands, I have to do this. I can handle it, I know what I'm doing, I don't care about anyone else's warnings"), and has already made multiple deals with that specific demon. Her power at the end of the game isn't really a factor as raw power isn't what determines if a mage can be possessed or not (and when dealing with a pride demon, more power makes you more overconfident which makes you more vulnerable to something that feeds on pride). Merrill was very overconfident and displaying all of the traits of the demon she was working with (Audacity).

 

With Hawke and co there then they may have been able to kill her after she was possessed, limiting the damage. But then, the only reason she brought Hawke and co along was because she was going to the cave, and she was only going to the cave because the demon had stopped speaking to her because Marethari had gone all Tal Rasha and bound it to herself. If Marethari hadn't done that, Merrill wouldn't have gone back to the cave and would have likely gotten possessed through the Eluvian in her own house, when Hawke and co weren't present.

 

Merrill's one of my favorite DA2 characters and my blood mage Hawke supported her, but I personally don't believe Merrill was ever going to succeed. Even if Merrill had managed to avoid possession, she would have still ultimately released the demon. Thematically, deals with demons are never going to go in favor of the mortal.

[Vit246]

Low probability.

 

Night's Terror Quest was forced. Nobody resisted.

 

Merill had resisted a pride demon for years and only talked to it once or twice.

 

There's no actual evidence that she made any sort of deal. For all we know, she managed to trick a freebie out of the demon like the Warden can do.

 

She's studied the Mirror more than anyone else, so I trust her more than Marethari when it comes to the Mirrors.

[congokong]

It's hard to argue fiction like this since I don't know what's "fact" in the DA universe. For example, I assume but don't know that it's harder to resist demons' temptations in the fade rather than the real world.

 

Had the keeper informed Merrill of this "discovery" of hers Merrill could have taken precautions. Having another mage there with her would also help. That's assuming it was even true. It might have been an assumption. I never really trusted the keeper. She seems to lie or exaggerate things. For example, she suggested that Feyrniel becoming an abomination would destroy cities or something with "unthinkable" destruction. It certainly wasn't good, but the dreamstalker wasn't that dangerous. Also, what has Marethari been saying about Merrill that would cause Pol to run from her to his death? From what we know of Merrill that reaction is unwarranted. But without Merrill (the only other mage) with teh clan, all they have is Marethari's version.

 

As my Hawke pointed out, what the keeper did was stupid. Somehow she got it in her head that freeing the demon from its near unbreakable prison, putting it into herself, and then summoning it in front of Merrill after Hawke and company hiked up the mountain unnecessarily was a good idea. It turned out to screw over the clan as well since they will all die unless you pick the one option that lets you walk away.

 

In the end Marethari got what she wanted. Merrill was "safe" and couldn't repair the eluvian thanks to her sabotage.

[congokong]

There's no actual evidence that she made any sort of deal. For all we know, she managed to trick a freebie out of the demon like the Warden can do.

 

 

I've wondered about this. It is suggested that she has made deals with demons at least once. Anders and Fenris bring it up as does the Pride demon in Night Terrors. I'm curious just what price Merrill paid if any. It's hard to get freebies out of demons unless they expect something down the line like getting out of their prison and possessing the mage maybe?

[Vit246]

I've wondered about this. It is suggested that she has made deals with demons at least once. Anders and Fenris bring it up as does the Pride demon in Night Terrors. I'm curious just what price Merrill paid if any. It's hard to get freebies out of demons unless they expect something down the line like getting out of their prison and possessing the mage maybe?

 

I doubt she's stupid enough to bargain her soul or agree to release since that would essentially make all of her work pointless. And she said she wouldn't release the demon. The most we know is that she probably learned blood magic from the demon. But nothing about her giving something back in return.

[Nightdragon8]

I doubt she's stupid enough to bargain her soul or agree to release since that would essentially make all of her work pointless. And she said she wouldn't release the demon. The most we know is that she probably learned blood magic from the demon. But nothing about her giving something back in return.

I thought she learned how to use blood magic to clean the mirror from the demon. See, it seems she was going there to release or potenially partly release the demon to get the info she needs to repair it completely.

 

Which as we saw, the demon would never had given her the info in the first place, because in reality, the demon was free wasn't it? It had control of Marethari. And yet the first thing it did was try to kill the group. Then when it couldn't he tried to pretend to be 'gone'.

 

So yea, it would have anyway. And you can't tell me Marethari wouldn't have enough expereince to deal with it, if not the will alone, considering how far she went to protect Merrill.

 

So yes,  I thinkt he demon would have taken over Merrill anyway, if she had released it.

[congokong]

I doubt she's stupid enough to bargain her soul or agree to release since that would essentially make all of her work pointless. And she said she wouldn't release the demon. The most we know is that she probably learned blood magic from the demon. But nothing about her giving something back in return.

But if I was Merrill I'd be very suspicious if the demon just offered me blood magic knowledge without asking for anything. I'd suspect it was up to something like Marethari suggested. Any smart mage will know demons' end-game is always to possess people no matter what they claim. They may settle for less but it's advantageous to never forget what they want. Therefore, being given freebies would raise some red flags.

 

 

Which as we saw, the demon would never had given her the info in the first place, because in reality, the demon was free wasn't it? It had control of Marethari. And yet the first thing it did was try to kill the group. Then when it couldn't he tried to pretend to be 'gone'.

 

Just curious, did anyone initially fall for that trick? I knew the demon was faking it even before the "you said you had to die" option popped up. I know once people see that option it may come to them but it was just so obvious.

[General TSAR]

Merrill is equally stupid, emotionally unstable, and prideful; her resistance is at best questionable.

[Pirate Queen Isabela]

I don't understand why people think Merrill is an idiot, she has proven time and time again that she is smart, cautious and trustworthy.

 

"Anders, there's no such thing as a good spirit. There never was. All spirits are dangerous, I understood that. I'm sorry that you didn't."

 

Merrill isn't some child toying with things, she gets it. Everyone treats her as a child, everyone treated her like she is gonna go rogue and that she doesn't understand the risks she is taking. She does, she does far better than Anders or Marethari.

 

Merrill is as smart as she is resourceful, studying the mirror, researching it, cleansing it with the only thing she has. Merrill moved from Sundermount where the demon's influence was strong and when returning back she asked Hawke and the others to come with her in case something goes wrong, that maybe she may turn into an abomination, she has someone to kill her. She thinks ahead, unlike Marethari's shortsighted vision. 

 

Marethari endangered her whole clan because she couldn't accept Merrill deciding a different fate, Marethari seriously makes me angry because of how she babies Merrill, when everything was Marethari's fault in the first place. Merrill said the clan should have moved long ago, but no, Marethari had to let her clan linger in a place so dangerous. Marethari never even talked to her clan about what she was going to do, she didn't even tell them to remove themselves to a safer place while she deals with Merrill, or assign a First to the clan incase she dies. She doesn't even think of the well being of her clan, at all.

 

Marethari's actions can not be blamed on Merrill, Marethari is her own person, how she reacted to Merrill's freedom was not only dumb but reckless. She abandoned her clan, she risked everything, not even thinking of the consequences. 

 

It was Marethari who was the one that fell to the Demon (in my headcanon, I believe the demon was after Marethari all that time) and it was her that abandoned her clan, far more than Merrill. 

[congokong]

Merrill is generally OK, but even Flemeth warns her of blindness. That should say something...when even Flemeth tells you to be cautious.

 

As Pirate Queen Isabela beautifully pointed out, people treat Merrill like a child playing with fire. Flemeth probably did as well. She didn't know Merrill but her first impression from Merrill's appearance could easily be that Merrill is in over her head. Everyone treats Merrill like a child. She looks childish and in many ways acts childish. She's called "kitten" and "daisy" by her friends. But I do think she knows what she's doing when it comes to magic. She is very cautious. Merrill never made an error over the 6 years you knew her but people like Marethari, Anders, Fenris, etc. kept assuming she would make one.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

I don't understand why people think Merrill is an idiot, she has proven time and time again that she is smart, cautious and trustworthy.

 

"Anders, there's no such thing as a good spirit. There never was. All spirits are dangerous, I understood that. I'm sorry that you didn't."

 

Merrill isn't some child toying with things, she gets it. Everyone treats her as a child, everyone treated her like she is gonna go rogue and that she doesn't understand the risks she is taking. She does, she does far better than Anders or Marethari.

 

Merrill is as smart as she is resourceful, studying the mirror, researching it, cleansing it with the only thing she has. Merrill moved from Sundermount where the demon's influence was strong and when returning back she asked Hawke and the others to come with her in case something goes wrong, that maybe she may turn into an abomination, she has someone to kill her. She thinks ahead, unlike Marethari's shortsighted vision. 

 

Marethari endangered her whole clan because she couldn't accept Merrill deciding a different fate, Marethari seriously makes me angry because of how she babies Merrill, when everything was Marethari's fault in the first place. Merrill said the clan should have moved long ago, but no, Marethari had to let her clan linger in a place so dangerous. Marethari never even talked to her clan about what she was going to do, she didn't even tell them to remove themselves to a safer place while she deals with Merrill, or assign a First to the clan incase she dies. She doesn't even think of the well being of her clan, at all.

 

Marethari's actions can not be blamed on Merrill, Marethari is her own person, how she reacted to Merrill's freedom was not only dumb but reckless. She abandoned her clan, she risked everything, not even thinking of the consequences. 

 

It was Marethari who was the one that fell to the Demon (in my headcanon, I believe the demon was after Marethari all that time) and it was her that abandoned her clan, far more than Merrill. 

 

We'll never know whether Merrill would have caught on to the demon's trickery, but while she may be very knowledgeable about magic, she has also been shown to be utterly witless at times and doesn't otherwise inspire much confidence. This is the same girl who wanders through Lowtown alone at night and into the Viscounts private property at day. She's lucky Varric is nice and has coin enough to keep trouble away from her, so Marethari is not the only character who recognizes that Merrill sometimes needs to be saved from herself.

 

It should also be said that the characterization of Marethari and the Dalish clan in general was a flat-out retcon from how DA:O portrayed them, no doubt to prop up Merrill as this poor lone-wolf for the players to feel bad for.

[KaiserShep]

I try not to remember the Dalish from Origins, because the entire clan took voice acting training to hone their accent.

[Pirate Queen Isabela]

We'll never know whether Merrill would have caught on to the demon's trickery, but while she may be very knowledgeable about magic, she has also been shown to be utterly witless at times and doesn't otherwise inspire much confidence. This is the same girl who wanders through Lowtown alone at night and into the Viscounts private property at day. She's lucky Varric is nice and has coin enough to keep trouble away from her, so Marethari is not the only character who recognizes that Merrill sometimes needs to be saved from herself.

 

It should also be said that the characterization of Marethari and the Dalish clan in general was a flat-out retcon from how DA:O portrayed them, no doubt to prop up Merrill as this poor lone-wolf for the players to feel bad for.

 

Merrill not understanding social customs doesn't mean she is witless. This is the first time Merrill was ever in a large city, filled with people with different intentions than her clan, she doesn't know how to react to it. Even in her own clan she didn't know, she couldn't ever form bonds with her clan expect for what, three people? She couldn't understand what was expected of her, the first human she ever met was Duncan and that was a few days before the time of the second game, you expect her to understand these people, this new culture, the fact there are people who don't always mean what they say? 

 

Varric helped Merrill when she first moved there, but as the years go on, she adapted. She got used to the new environment; 

 

((Merrill: You should have this back.

Varric: Twine? When did I loan you a ball of twine?

Merrill: You gave it to me when I first moved here when I kept getting lost in Lowtown.

Merrill: It drove the merchants in the market completely batty, but it did help me find my way.

Varric: Keep it, Daisy.

Merrill: I don't think I'll be getting lost again anytime soon.))

 

She just needed time to adapt, and again, just because Varric thinks she needs help doesn't mean she needs it. I'm sure if Merrill met people who were trying to kill her, she'd you know, as an experienced Mage, fight back. Even if Varric didn't help her, Merrill needed time to accustom to a new place and if she needed to fight, she knows how to and won't hesitate. 

 

 

The retcon is dumb, but I can't comment on it. Bioware has a love for retconning, I'm afraid.

[Dean_the_Young]

I don't understand why people think Merrill is an idiot, she has proven time and time again that she is smart, cautious and trustworthy.

 

"Anders, there's no such thing as a good spirit. There never was. All spirits are dangerous, I understood that. I'm sorry that you didn't."

 

Merrill isn't some child toying with things, she gets it. Everyone treats her as a child, everyone treated her like she is gonna go rogue and that she doesn't understand the risks she is taking. She does, she does far better than Anders or Marethari.

 

Merrill is as smart as she is resourceful, studying the mirror, researching it, cleansing it with the only thing she has. Merrill moved from Sundermount where the demon's influence was strong and when returning back she asked Hawke and the others to come with her in case something goes wrong, that maybe she may turn into an abomination, she has someone to kill her. She thinks ahead, unlike Marethari's shortsighted vision. 

 

Marethari endangered her whole clan because she couldn't accept Merrill deciding a different fate, Marethari seriously makes me angry because of how she babies Merrill, when everything was Marethari's fault in the first place. Merrill said the clan should have moved long ago, but no, Marethari had to let her clan linger in a place so dangerous. Marethari never even talked to her clan about what she was going to do, she didn't even tell them to remove themselves to a safer place while she deals with Merrill, or assign a First to the clan incase she dies. She doesn't even think of the well being of her clan, at all.

 

Marethari's actions can not be blamed on Merrill, Marethari is her own person, how she reacted to Merrill's freedom was not only dumb but reckless. She abandoned her clan, she risked everything, not even thinking of the consequences. 

 

It was Marethari who was the one that fell to the Demon (in my headcanon, I believe the demon was after Marethari all that time) and it was her that abandoned her clan, far more than Merrill. 

 

I think the fact that Merrill will fall to a demonic temptation of pride when given the chance rather illustrated that she didn't 'get it' as much as she thought she did. She thinks she does, but then her fatal flaw is pride for a reason. She isn't as wise and resistant to demons as she thought she was. She doesn't know enough about the Eluvian to be able to claim to be an expert about it, and yet claims herself as a credible authority that her tinkering is safe and responsible. She certainly doesn't understand or foresee social interactions. All of these are quite relevant categories to want a minimum degree of expertise with things as potential dangerous and socially-altering as the Eluvian and the Demon. Merrill repeatedly comes short when reality falls short of her expectations and foresight.

 

Marethari letting love blind her to wisdom doesn't really change any of that.

[Pirate Queen Isabela]

I think the fact that Merrill will fall to a demonic temptation of pride when given the chance rather illustrated that she didn't 'get it' as much as she thought she did. She thinks she does, but then her fatal flaw is pride for a reason. She isn't as wise and resistant to demons as she thought she was. She doesn't know enough about the Eluvian to be able to claim to be an expert about it, and yet claims herself as a credible authority that her tinkering is safe and responsible. She certainly doesn't understand or foresee social interactions. All of these are quite relevant categories to want a minimum degree of expertise with things as potential dangerous and socially-altering as the Eluvian and the Demon. Merrill repeatedly comes short when reality falls short of her expectations and foresight.

 

Marethari letting love blind her to wisdom doesn't really change any of that.

 

I never was denying that she wouldn't get possessed. I just believe she is far smarter than people give her credit for.

 

Even Merrill knows that she might get possessed, that's why she asked Hawke + others to come with her. She applied all the precautions needed, tbh. Merrill is smarter than people think, she has for over the course of four (?) or so years not been possessed, and when something threatens that, when she knows she might fall prey to a demon, she asks for people to be there so they can kill her so she doesn't end up endangering anyone. 

[Dean_the_Young]

As Pirate Queen Isabela beautifully pointed out, people treat Merrill like a child playing with fire. Flemeth probably did as well. She didn't know Merrill but her first impression from Merrill's appearance could easily be that Merrill is in over her head. Everyone treats Merrill like a child. She looks childish and in many ways acts childish. She's called "kitten" and "daisy" by her friends. But I do think she knows what she's doing when it comes to magic. She is very cautious. Merrill never made an error over the 6 years you knew her but people like Marethari, Anders, Fenris, etc. kept assuming she would make one.

 

I would consider not being able to understand and predict other people's reactions to your actions an error. It's not like there wasn't an escalating pattern of resistance to Merrill's plans by Marathiel.

 

Kind of begs the question of what Merrill though would happen if she did succeed. Messiah Complex aside, how did she see restoring the Eluvian actually changing anything? DA2 was pretty absent about indicating what the Eluvian actually does.

[Dean_the_Young]

I never was denying that she wouldn't get possessed. I just believe she is far smarter than people give her credit for.

 

 

People give her credit for not being smart enough to understand people or demons. The story rather supports that claim more than Merril's claim of having it all under control. She never had it all under control because it was never something she could control all the variables in the first place. Merrill wasn't smart enough to figure that out until it was far too late.

 

 

Even Merrill knows that she might get possessed, that's why she asked Hawke + others to come with her. She applied all the precautions needed, tbh. Merrill is smarter than people think, she has for over the course of four (?) or so years not been possessed, and when something threatens that, when she knows she might fall prey to a demon, she asks for people to be there so they can kill her so she doesn't end up endangering anyone. 

 

 

 

No precautions are needed because Merrill's goal is not needed- especially when you set the bar so low as 'a demon still sealed in a rock has not possessed her.' As long as it was sealed in the rock, it was never going to posses her. The only reason it would not have been sealed in the rock is her intervention.

 

Merrill is creating a risk. Her mitigation measure for that is, itself, risky as well- assuming that Hawke and a small escort will be able to stop the demon if she fails. That might appeal to player ego and gameplay, but not the lore. Merrill's countermeasure to releasing a being capable of being a regional emergency (if the lore depictions of Greater Pride Demons are to believed) is to bring one to three people.

 

That's not being smart. Being smart is not taking unnecessary risks in the first place.

 

 

 

 

But then, the only reason she brought Hawke and co along was because she was going to the cave, and she was only going to the cave because the demon had stopped speaking to her because Marethari had gone all Tal Rasha and bound it to herself. If Marethari hadn't done that, Merrill wouldn't have gone back to the cave and would have likely gotten possessed through the Eluvian in her own house, when Hawke and co weren't present.

There's also this point- Merrill's precautionary plan only started when someone else intervened to make the threat to her moot. Heck, her precautions weren't even oriented at the proclaimed avenue of threat: Merrill was bringing the team to the cave, while the demon's alleged avenue of threat was via the Eluvian (which Merrill works on alone). If Audacity was actually going to come through the mirror, not possession on the mountain, Merrill's precautions were completely misaimed.

[Pirate Queen Isabela]

People give her credit for not being smart enough to understand people or demons. The story rather supports that claim more than Merril's claim of having it all under control. She never had it all under control because it was never something she could control all the variables in the first place. Merrill wasn't smart enough to figure that out until it was far too late.

 

 

No precautions are needed because Merrill's goal is not needed- especially when you set the bar so low as 'a demon still sealed in a rock has not possessed her.' As long as it was sealed in the rock, it was never going to posses her. The only reason it would not have been sealed in the rock is her intervention.

 

Merrill is creating a risk. Her mitigation measure for that is, itself, risky as well- assuming that Hawke and a small escort will be able to stop the demon if she fails. That might appeal to player ego and gameplay, but not the lore. Merrill's countermeasure to releasing a being capable of being a regional emergency (if the lore depictions of Greater Pride Demons are to believed) is to bring one to three people.

 

That's not being smart. Being smart is not taking unnecessary risks in the first place.

 

 

 

There's also this point- Merrill's precautionary plan only started when someone else intervened to make the threat to her moot. Heck, her precautions weren't even oriented at the proclaimed avenue of threat: Merrill was bringing the team to the cave, while the demon's alleged avenue of threat was via the Eluvian (which Merrill works on alone). If Audacity was actually going to come through the mirror, not possession on the mountain, Merrill's precautions were completely misaimed.

 

Hawke can take on Demons easily, they have before multiple times. And honestly I'm not well versed with the lore about Demons, but Hawke and co managed to kill Marethari who was possessed, so how hard is it? Merrill doesn't bring just anyone along, she brings people she knows dealt with multiple abominations. 

 

And in your eyes it may be a unnecessary risk but it meant everything to Merrill. She decided to pursue it, and you have the option to turn it down, but saying Merrill has no right to relearn her history no matter how dangerous it is, is your own thoughts. Merrill informs you that she knows what she is doing is risky, she as a person, as a elf who truly thinks restoring the Eluvian a part of Elven history is helpful, has every right to take that risk if she thinks it is worth it. Again, Hawke kills dragons and abominations left and right, her believing Hawke can do it isn't such a surprise?

 

Everyone assumes restoring the Eluvian is bad but... there is nothing that supports that except for Marethari (who uh would have endangered the whole clan and then gets herself possessed, plus canon contradicts her paranoia?). It's a matter of your personal choice and morality, but no one should live Merrill's life for her, not even Hawke.