46 réponses à ce sujet

[General TSAR]

Hawke can take on Demons easily, they have before multiple times. 

And because Hawke is the player character. 

[themikefest]

Merril is a couple of cans short of a 6-pack.

 

One of the funniest lines in the game has her saying "Had there of been piles of Lyrium lying around" she could've "cleaned"(or wharever word) the mirror. She was just lazy and thought summoning a demon was better. Silly little elf. Her and Anders would make for a perfect couple. Dumb and dumber.

 

Also, why is she the only one  interested in the mirror? The clan doesn't care for it. So now she knows more than everyone in the clan? I'm surprised the clan just didn't kill her at the beginning to avoid all the nonsense from her.

[Pirate Queen Isabela]

And because Hawke is the player character. 

 

Sure, still doesn't change the fact Hawke can, though.

[congokong]

Merril is a couple of cans short of a 6-pack.

 

One of the funniest lines in the game has her saying "Had there of been piles of Lyrium lying around" she could've "cleaned"(or wharever word) the mirror. She was just lazy and thought summoning a demon was better. Silly little elf. Her and Anders would make for a perfect couple. Dumb and dumber.

 

Also, why is she the only one  interested in the mirror? The clan doesn't care for it. So now she knows more than everyone in the clan? I'm surprised the clan just didn't kill her at the beginning to avoid all the nonsense from her.

 

Lyrium is apparently expensive.

 

The only member of the clan besides Merrill familiar with magic was Marethari, and we know how she felt about the eluvian. Since she was keeper, the clan likely trusted her over Merrill; especially considering what the eluvian did to Tamlen. The clan knows next to nothing about the eluvian, but they fear the unknown.

 

I like the line my aggressive Hawke who always defended Merrill said after the clan was wiped out.

 

"Fear caused more damage to your clan than blood magic ever could."

 

Instead of just whining like all the other dalish about how great things used to be and the injustice they've suffered Merrill was actually trying to get back some of what the dalish used to have through the eluvian. I really liked Merrill. She lacks that typical dalish bitterness and never bitches like the others do for example when Hawke steps into their camp nor calls Hawke a shemlan ever.

[Dean_the_Young]

Hawke can take on Demons easily, they have before multiple times. And honestly I'm not well versed with the lore about Demons, but Hawke and co managed to kill Marethari who was possessed, so how hard is it? Merrill doesn't bring just anyone along, she brings people she knows dealt with multiple abominations. 

 

Gameplay and story segregation there, mate. Marethari herself, who was trying to get killed, can easily be considered a significant feat in its own right- and that was the case of a spirit that stayed to fight. Merrill doesn't have any assurance that the spirit will play as nicely had she been the one- or if the spirit had done something else instead.

 

Had Merrill released the spirit, and it simply fled from Hawke and crew using magic to jump down the mountain, what then? Is she going to go 'oopsie' if the demon landed on the Dalish and then decided to make a mess of things in a way that a 4-person party couldn't conveniently kill?

 

Now, granted, the fact that you are conceding that you are arguing from ignorance of the lore and what was being risked doesn't exactly do the argument of rationality and intelligence any good for you...

 

 

And in your eyes it may be a unnecessary risk but it meant everything to Merrill. She decided to pursue it, and you have the option to turn it down, but saying Merrill has no right to relearn her history no matter how dangerous it is, is your own thoughts. Merrill informs you that she knows what she is doing is risky, she as a person, as a elf who truly thinks restoring the Eluvian a part of Elven history is helpful, has every right to take that risk if she thinks it is worth it. Again, Hawke kills dragons and abominations left and right, her believing Hawke can do it isn't such a surprise?

 

 

I never said Merrill has no right to relearn history no matter how dangerous it is. I will point out that Merrill has no right to risk the lives of others, which is exactly what her dabbling with a taint-spreading eluvian and demonology were doing. Merrill's right to curiosity and to sate her god complex doesn't entitle her to endanger others.

 

The fact that it meant everything to Merrill, despite her having no clue what it might do or change things, is rather illustrative of how irrational she was being. She repeatedly cast herself in heroic terms of bringing a great good for her people... based on what? She doesn't know how to fix the Eluvian. She doesn't even know what the Eluvian does. What little that is known about the Eluvian has every other true elf telling her they don't want her to do it. And yet Merrill continues to justify her own obsession in the name of people who are actively rejecting her actions in their name.

 

Being sincere doesn't make you smarter, especially when your sincereity is based off a hunch without support.
 

 

Everyone assumes restoring the Eluvian is bad but... there is nothing that supports that except for Marethari (who uh would have endangered the whole clan and then gets herself possessed, plus canon contradicts her paranoia?). It's a matter of your personal choice and morality, but no one should live Merrill's life for her, not even Hawke.

 

 

Well, there is the fact that the Eluvian has been involved in spreading the taint by means Merrill has no idea why or how. And that Merrill's path to restoring the Eluvian relies heavily on the assistance of a type of spirit she is particularly vulnerable. And that Merrill herself has no grounds to her claims that it will be a boon, and never raises anything against Marethari's warnings (who, you know, might have a point that Merrill ignores). And that Merrill has no clue about the impacts of the Eluvian if activated and what sort of safeguards would need to be taken.

 

So, if we ignore that Merrill is engaging in dangerous magics that have already harmed people and can continue to do so going forward, sure. No one should live Merrill's life for her.

 

But if we don't ignore that Merrill is engaging in dangerous magics that have already harmed people and con continue to do so, and we also recognize that Merrill isn't nearly as competent or capable as she believes herself to be, then everyone should stop Merrill from living her life when she endangers the lives of others. Merrill has no right to a martyr complex of dangerous irresponsibility in the name of a people who do not want her to be a martyr for them.

 

If the consequence of Merrill's failure was going to be limited to only Merrill, then Merrill could claim only she has a right to be concerned. But she isn't: Merrill is a mage, she is deliberately gambling with possession via a high-tier spirit, and all for a dangerous magical artifact with significant potential for abuse. Merrill is ignorant, to the degree that she doesn't know what she doesn't know, and is woefully underprepared and unequipped to guard again threats she did not even consider in advance (the first being Audacity coming through the mirror, the second being someone else sacrificing themselves on Merrill's behalf).

 

 

 

 

Canon has yet to contradict Marethari's warnings either, so there's that as well.

[Dean_the_Young]

Lyrium is apparently expensive.

 

The only member of the clan besides Merrill familiar with magic was Marethari, and we know how she felt about the eluvian. Since she was keeper, the clan likely trusted her over Merrill; especially considering what the eluvian did to Tamlen. The clan knows next to nothing about the eluvian, but they fear the unknown.

 

I like the line my aggressive Hawke who always defended Merrill said after the clan was wiped out.

 

"Fear caused more damage to your clan than blood magic ever could."

 

Of course, some times fear of the unknown is justified when what little you do know includes real dangers. What was known can very well be deemed enough: the Eluvian was associated with the taint and allowed it to spread, and demonology is bad. Merrill didn't care and engaged in both in an effort she was self-admittedly quite ignorant about: even if she had not a malevolent bone in her body, those four factors alone would be enough to give most people pause.

 

Merrill's failing here is that she never created a grounds to validate her acceptance of the risks of the known dangers. It was always 'it will be for the best' or 'it's a part of our past'- which in and of itself isn't exactly an all-convincing argument if you don't believe something from the past deserves to be dug up at any cost. Merrill's logic is the sort to ignore any concept of 'forbidden for a good reason.' If she were in the Fallout universe as a tribal, she'd break into a nuclear waste repository while insisting she totally knew what she was doing.

 

 

 

 

Instead of just whining like all the other dalish about how great things used to be and the injustice they've suffered Merrill was actually trying to get back some of what the dalish used to have through the eluvian. I really liked Merrill. She lacks that typical dalish bitterness and never bitches like the others do for example when Hawke steps into their camp nor calls Hawke a shemlan ever.

 

 

Merrill totally calls Hawke a shelmlen if you don't support her efforts- particularly if you don't give her the carving tool. If you rival her, you'll find she's quite capable of being bitter and bitching.

 

She also engages in, hm, passive agressive isn't the right word. She does demonstrate the ethnocentricism of being Dalish when talking with Fenris from time to time.

[iOnlySignIn]

 Merrill never clearly tells us how she's going to get the information she needs, but I figure it would have been some sort of blood-magic ritual, hence the fear of being possessed.

 

And, I think she would have gotten what she needed, but as a trap: the pride-demon would have given her what she needed to make it work, but not without first getting her connect it to his prison and release himself. So, perhaps not possession, but still great danger to many.

 

 

*edit* ninja'd by Corker.

 

Yup, sounds plausible.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

 It was tricky for me to RP my Hawke to dislike Merrill but be supportive of her project at the same time as I wanted to, but I found a way...

 

Basically, oppose her project by accusing her of being too stupid and careless, not opposing the project itself. Get Anders's full rivalry (not hard to do). Avoid the final conversation with Merrill where she destroys the mirror and that ensures her loyalty at the end of the game. Lastly, side with the Templars and kill her; Merrill is finally removed from the story and the mirror is left intact at her home for Hawke to claim as his rightful prize (along with the arulin'holm from earlier)! 

[Pirate Queen Isabela]

Gameplay and story segregation there, mate. Marethari herself, who was trying to get killed, can easily be considered a significant feat in its own right- and that was the case of a spirit that stayed to fight. Merrill doesn't have any assurance that the spirit will play as nicely had she been the one- or if the spirit had done something else instead.

 

Had Merrill released the spirit, and it simply fled from Hawke and crew using magic to jump down the mountain, what then? Is she going to go 'oopsie' if the demon landed on the Dalish and then decided to make a mess of things in a way that a 4-person party couldn't conveniently kill?

 

Now, granted, the fact that you are conceding that you are arguing from ignorance of the lore and what was being risked doesn't exactly do the argument of rationality and intelligence any good for you...

 

 

I never said Merrill has no right to relearn history no matter how dangerous it is. I will point out that Merrill has no right to risk the lives of others, which is exactly what her dabbling with a taint-spreading eluvian and demonology were doing. Merrill's right to curiosity and to sate her god complex doesn't entitle her to endanger others.

 

The fact that it meant everything to Merrill, despite her having no clue what it might do or change things, is rather illustrative of how irrational she was being. She repeatedly cast herself in heroic terms of bringing a great good for her people... based on what? She doesn't know how to fix the Eluvian. She doesn't even know what the Eluvian does. What little that is known about the Eluvian has every other true elf telling her they don't want her to do it. And yet Merrill continues to justify her own obsession in the name of people who are actively rejecting her actions in their name.

 

Being sincere doesn't make you smarter, especially when your sincereity is based off a hunch without support.
 

Well, there is the fact that the Eluvian has been involved in spreading the taint by means Merrill has no idea why or how. And that Merrill's path to restoring the Eluvian relies heavily on the assistance of a type of spirit she is particularly vulnerable. And that Merrill herself has no grounds to her claims that it will be a boon, and never raises anything against Marethari's warnings (who, you know, might have a point that Merrill ignores). And that Merrill has no clue about the impacts of the Eluvian if activated and what sort of safeguards would need to be taken.

 

So, if we ignore that Merrill is engaging in dangerous magics that have already harmed people and can continue to do so going forward, sure. No one should live Merrill's life for her.

 

But if we don't ignore that Merrill is engaging in dangerous magics that have already harmed people and con continue to do so, and we also recognize that Merrill isn't nearly as competent or capable as she believes herself to be, then everyone should stop Merrill from living her life when she endangers the lives of others. Merrill has no right to a martyr complex of dangerous irresponsibility in the name of a people who do not want her to be a martyr for them.

 

If the consequence of Merrill's failure was going to be limited to only Merrill, then Merrill could claim only she has a right to be concerned. But she isn't: Merrill is a mage, she is deliberately gambling with possession via a high-tier spirit, and all for a dangerous magical artifact with significant potential for abuse. Merrill is ignorant, to the degree that she doesn't know what she doesn't know, and is woefully underprepared and unequipped to guard again threats she did not even consider in advance (the first being Audacity coming through the mirror, the second being someone else sacrificing themselves on Merrill's behalf).

 

 

 

 

Canon has yet to contradict Marethari's warnings either, so there's that as well.

 

 

I said I'm not a hundred percent sure on the lore of Demons, and especially since Pride Demons can be taken down by a player and their companions then it couldn't be too hard to deal with. 

 

Merrill isn't outright risking anyone but herself, she took the necessary precautions, which would or would have not worked out had Marethari not interfered. The only reason the other Elves don't want her to continue is because Marethari is spreading the paranoia like poison, how do we know if there are people actually curious but don't want to risk angering the Keeper or siding with an outcast? Briala is eager to use Eluvians.

 

And about the Taint, whether we or she knows why or how it was tainted (probably from prolong times with the Darkspawn because the other Eluvians are fine) she cleansed it, even if it was with Blood Magic, she did it.  And going on about being a Blood mage when the player character can be a blood mage is a bit off. 

 

I'm also especially surprised by how you think Merrill should, what, know Marethari was gonna jump in and pretend to rescue her when Merrill made it clear she didn't want Marethari to do anything?

 

We're arguing against if's and but's but it's clear through out the story she didn't hurt anyone doing what she did, and whether she would have succeeded or not is depending on how you think of it. I think she could have done it without Marethari's interference, and if you don't that's alright, let's agree to disagree.

[Jaison1986]

I think the main point is that if she left the mirror alone and casted it aside, no one would need to die. The Keeper wouldn't need to die to protect Merrill nor Merrill would need to risk dealing with an demon and die of possession. All of this could have been avoided if she just gave up. Not to mention that she constantly says she does this to save the clan. ????? 

 

How is that restoring an single Eluvian will save them? And from what? They are not in danger from anything. They have lived their lifes like this for centuries and they still will. This is all in her head. Absolutely no one  supports her and she is constantly told to let it go, even companions like Varric and Isabela that adore her tell her this stuff is not worth it.

[Reaver102]

I'm not really sure why people keep saying Merrill was in danger from being possessed by the daemon through the mirror, at this point we should all know that is not how they work.  It was just a fear Marethai had based out of ignorance.  

[fhs33721]

Gameplay and story segregation there, mate. Marethari herself, who was trying to get killed, can easily be considered a significant feat in its own right- and that was the case of a spirit that stayed to fight. Merrill doesn't have any assurance that the spirit will play as nicely had she been the one- or if the spirit had done something else instead.

 

That argument doesn't count here. Hawke didn't only kill abominations and demons in gameplay but also quite a few in the actual story at this point.

 

-In every case the hunger demon in the deep roads

-(Possibly) Allure during Sebastians quest

-(Possibly) Wryme, Caress and Topor in the Night terror quest

-In every case Evelina in on the loose

-(Possibly) Xebenkeck when destroying the book of fell

-(Possibly) Various pride demons bound to imprison Corypheus in Legacy. Also the lower demons that Malcom bound.

-(Possibly) Hybris in the awergian scrolls quest

-(Possibly) Hanker i the Kind of Want quest

-(Possibly) The sky horror in Mark of the assasin.

 

All of these demons are central to the story of their respective quests and not just filler fights (Except maybe the sky horror).

So even if you do no side mission at all Hawke has at least killed one demon and one abomination before Merrils Act 3 quest. If you do at least some of the side missions even more. So yes, even from a story point of view Hawke has proven to be able to kill demons and abominations.

[AVPen]

I think a lot of how I interpret the context of Merril's last loyalty mission and if she was right or not to repair the eluvian is based on whether or not Marethari is telling the truth... and honestly, I'm kinda leaning towards that she was lying at that point, or at the very least telling half-truths.

 

By this point in the story, the demon has been inside Marethari for a while and is coloring her actions (not moving the clan despite the dangers, etc) and at a few points during the battle with Audacity, Marethari tries to trick Merril into believing that the demon is gone so that it can attack her, so why should we believe that the demon only starts to control Marethari's personality at the moment she stabs Merril? Additionally, we already knew from Morrigan in the Witch Hunt DLC that the eluvians are gateways to realms "beyond this world and beyond the Fade" (something that has been recently supported by the information given in The Masked Empire novel), meaning that the demon could never use it to escape from it's Fade prison and that Marethari's claims to the contrary are actually false.

 

Then again, supposedly a Bioware staff member once claimed that Merril restoring the eluvian was "a bad call", so who the hell knows...    (but that was also long before The Masked Empire was released, so maybe the nature of the eluvians have changed since that statement)

[Pirate Queen Isabela]

I think a lot of how I interpret the context of Merril's last loyalty mission and if she was right or not to repair the eluvian is based on whether or not Marethari is telling the truth... and honestly, I'm kinda leaning towards that she was lying at that point, or at the very least telling half-truths.

 

By this point in the story, the demon has been inside Marethari for a while and is coloring her actions (not moving the clan despite the dangers, etc) and at a few points during the battle with Audacity, Marethari tries to trick Merril into believing that the demon is gone so that it can attack her, so why should we believe that the demon only starts to control Marethari's personality at the moment she stabs Merril? Additionally, we already knew from Morrigan in the Witch Hunt DLC that the eluvians are gateways to realms "beyond this world and beyond the Fade" (something that has been recently supported by the information given in The Masked Empire novel), meaning that the demon could never use it to escape from it's Fade prison and that Marethari's claims to the contrary are actually false.

 

Then again, supposedly a Bioware staff member once claimed that Merril restoring the eluvian was "a bad call", so who the hell knows...    (but that was also long before The Masked Empire was released, so maybe the nature of the eluvians have changed since that statement)

 

Thank you for explaining that, my first language isn't English so I had a hard time getting this across! That's what I meant when I said canon proves Marethari wrong.  A lot of what Marethari said was out of blindness and desperateness, false facts basically, trying to get Hawke and co. to abandon Merrill.

[Abraham_uk]

Isn't Varric Tethras the only character in Dragon Age II who can't die?

 

Unless Hawke and entire party falls (i.e. Varric is wasting Cassandra's time), since a very much alive Varric tells Cassandra that he is dead.

 

Possibly dead characters from Mass Effect 2 get a little side mission in Mass Effect 3.

 

Spoiler

 

Tali Zorah and Garrus Vakarian could die but they are squadmates in Mass Effect 3 if they live.

 

[Cobra's_back]

As Pirate Queen Isabela beautifully pointed out, people treat Merrill like a child playing with fire. Flemeth probably did as well. She didn't know Merrill but her first impression from Merrill's appearance could easily be that Merrill is in over her head. Everyone treats Merrill like a child. She looks childish and in many ways acts childish. She's called "kitten" and "daisy" by her friends. But I do think she knows what she's doing when it comes to magic. She is very cautious. Merrill never made an error over the 6 years you knew her but people like Marethari, Anders, Fenris, etc. kept assuming she would make one.

 

Good description. I always had the impression she was sweet and childlike. Someone you feel compelled to protect. I think even Isabela felt bad for her. I remember Isabela won against her in cards and she gave back the item.

[Han Shot First]

Highly unlikely she would have resisted. She already displays huge amounts of pride ("no one else understands, I have to do this. I can handle it, I know what I'm doing, I don't care about anyone else's warnings"), and has already made multiple deals with that specific demon. Her power at the end of the game isn't really a factor as raw power isn't what determines if a mage can be possessed or not (and when dealing with a pride demon, more power makes you more overconfident which makes you more vulnerable to something that feeds on pride). Merrill was very overconfident and displaying all of the traits of the demon she was working with (Audacity).

 

With Hawke and co there then they may have been able to kill her after she was possessed, limiting the damage. But then, the only reason she brought Hawke and co along was because she was going to the cave, and she was only going to the cave because the demon had stopped speaking to her because Marethari had gone all Tal Rasha and bound it to herself. If Marethari hadn't done that, Merrill wouldn't have gone back to the cave and would have likely gotten possessed through the Eluvian in her own house, when Hawke and co weren't present.

 

Merrill's one of my favorite DA2 characters and my blood mage Hawke supported her, but I personally don't believe Merrill was ever going to succeed. Even if Merrill had managed to avoid possession, she would have still ultimately released the demon. Thematically, deals with demons are never going to go in favor of the mortal.

 

Agreed.

 

Merrill possessed two potentially fatal flaws; She was at once both prideful and naive. Those traits made her perfect for the demon's schemes, and the pride demon was playing Merrill like a fiddle. Without drastic intervention from others there was no positive outcome for her. She would have either ended up an abomination or unintentionally releasing a pride demon upon the world.

[Cobra's_back]

Agreed.

 

Merrill possessed two potentially fatal flaws; She was at once both prideful and naive. Those traits made her perfect for the demon's schemes, and the pride demon was playing Merrill like a fiddle. Without drastic intervention from others there was no positive outcome for her. She would have either ended up an abomination or unintentionally releasing a pride demon upon the world.

 

Sure looks that way. It was funny that they named the Pride demon Audacity. Hint for us at least. 

[Rorschachinstein]

Merrill was my favorite DA2 companion, but I doubt she would have been strong enough to resist the Demon.  If Marethari couldn't beat him, then I doubt Merrill could have.  Alone at least.

[congokong]

Good description. I always had the impression she was sweet and childlike. Someone you feel compelled to protect. I think even Isabela felt bad for her. I remember Isabela won against her in cards and she gave back the item.

 

It would be very cruel to take advantage of your friends' ignorance at cards by taking their valuable heirlooms; especially when you do it by cheating.

 

 

Merrill totally calls Hawke a shelmlen if you don't support her efforts- particularly if you don't give her the carving tool. If you rival her, you'll find she's quite capable of being bitter and bitching.

 

She also engages in, hm, passive agressive isn't the right word. She does demonstrate the ethnocentricism of being Dalish when talking with Fenris from time to time.

 

Sorry. I was wrong then. I've only had her as a friend so I didn't know that. I know she does throw Hawke out of her house if you deny her that magic tool she wants. Doing that after going through all the work to get it deserves being called a "shem" though. It's also perhaps the only situation in the game where if you deny her the carving tool her friendship reverses to rivalry unless it's maxed out.

 

 

Merrill was my favorite DA2 companion, but I doubt she would have been strong enough to resist the Demon.  If Marethari couldn't beat him, then I doubt Merrill could have.  Alone at least.

 

I will say that she's probably the worst companion to bring along for Night Terrors considering her ...sympathetic nature towards demons. Next would be Isabela. Ironically those are the two I bring. I felt uneasy with her request for your help when confronting the pride demon on Sundermount. If that demon offered to repair the eluvian by sacrificing Hawke, what would she do? You're potentially putting a target on yourself by helping her.

[Cobra's_back]

CongoKong

 

I agree Isabela was cheating and always does. 

 

"It would be very cruel to take advantage of your friends' ignorance at cards by taking their valuable heirlooms; especially when you do it by cheating."

 

So true. Could tell us that Merrill is a bit too trusting.