286 réponses à ce sujet

[LawShadow]

Something went wrong with the above post i tried to qoute but it didn't seem to work...

[Turian Master Race]

 

 

Correct RTK

 

This weapon is a beast in the right hands and kit granted the only negative side is playing off host with a laggy connection if its not laggy then its almost on par with on host ALMOST.

People have issues with this gun namely the longer learning curve which i my self have taken the time to get used to the delay and now i realise this sniper shotgun is heaven in long range, medium range and close range.

 

When aiming slightly above the enemies head will grant easier headshots at longer distances.

When using a kit with overload or proxi then the various mooks stand no chance you should be able to atleast explode 2 heads or more in the proces.

Ive used the crusader on a Geth Soldier (weapon based) with no issues for those sweet headshots.

 

Kills mooks FAST and kills bosses FAST.

 

This gun is pure bliss but it needs a good kit personally these are the kits where the Crusader shines!

 

Turian Soldier - Marksman enabled and bosses are pudding...

Geth Engineer - tripple overload makes for easy multiple headshots...

Geth Infiltrator - proxi staggers for easy multiple headshots...

Turian Sentinal - overload same as with the GE

Geth Soldier - this time you gotta work for those headshots but his increased shields makes up for that...ie taking hits while scoring headshots...

 

Well most kits are suited for the Crusader it just takes time.

 

I quote in order to show shadow's response.

[Kislitsin]

I think the reason why the Crusader bothers many of us so much is because we agree with Schanche. It's a great gun. Looks, sounds, feels great, great features, huge damage. So to have this bug in the firing code that makes it aim weirdly - it's that one little thing that completely breaks our potential love for the gun.

Yeah, the sad part of that bug. The gun, the feeling of it is great, universality and potential are amazing. But the bug is often frustraiting. The gun is damn heavy (for almost the same encumbrance I can take PPR and CTS pally) and has a considerable recoil, it's incapable to 1hsk shielded mook even with phasics thus requires 2 HS. Why should it have such a delay? It's completely counterintuitive and totally ruins the gun for many players.

 

@Mega: no snapshots means no snapshots. No more no less.

[Chealec]

Playing with WASD and 1-2-3 controls.. now there's some crap!

Mouse is cool though..

 

lol - fair point Even though you can rebind the keys, there's no getting away from the fact that there are a tonne of actions that have to, essentially, be assigned to one hand as all you do with the mouse is aim and shoot (and reload cancel with medigel bound to a thumb button) ... unless you fork out for a mouse with a gazillion thumb buttons of course.

[DisturbedPsic0]

I think the reason why the Crusader bothers many of us so much is because we agree with Schanche. It's a great gun. Looks, sounds, feels great, great features, huge damage. So to have this bug in the firing code that makes it aim weirdly - it's that one little thing that completely breaks our potential love for the gun.

I must be one of the few who really doesn't like how the Crusader sounds.  It sounds like a BB gun. I keep thinking the badass sound of a shotgun must be on a delay as well. It's the reason the Raider and Claymore are so attractive to me (oh yeah and monster damage).  The weight, look, recoil are fine. I can deal with the delay because I take stagger powers to help. It's the sound that throws me off. Shotguns should sound like God slamming his car door in the middle of a thunderstorm, not a BB gun.

[Chealec]

I don't understand why would it be worse at close range than the others you named. It is just as effective at close range as long range, and it is much, much better at longe range than the Graal, Raider, or the Talon and better than the wraith or claymore.

 

I think that the main problem is that you have this preconception about the crusader as a niche weapon, so you are using it as a 'secondary' on the destroyer, whereas the crusader on the destroyer is one of the best weapons and you do not need a 'primary' at all.

 

The delay thing has been gone over and over again, just a quick Google search pulled this up: http://forum.bioware...er-frame-rates/

 

At close range, on a Husk or ABomb running at you for instance, there's a reasonable chance you'll miss - the same cannot be said with any other shotgun; you might not land a headshot but you'll not miss and your target will be dead. The saving grace there is that you've got 4 shots with the Crusader - you're bound to hit with one of them.

 

At longer range, as long as you're not on a laggy host, it's not really much better than the Graal (charged Graal shot can OSK a gold Phantom with a headshot at pretty much any but the longest ranges) except against bosses or the Saber and it's worse than the main Sniper Rifles... but yes, it's better than the Talon, Raider, Wraith or Claymore. It's just an odd gun, neither a shotty nor an SR and too heavy for power-spamming classes IMO (even at X which I've had it at for possibly almost a year) - it neither excels at close or long range but is good at both - and it requires the patience to watch the reticle turn red.

 

 

The primary on the Destroyer is the Typhoon for me - I can't be doing with patiently lining up a shot with that kit, just mow everything down. I don't have a "preconception about the Crusader as a niche weapon" I have an opinion that it's a niche weapon - a preconception would imply I hadn't used it on an absolute tonne of kits trying to find out where it fits best... I have. There are 3 kits I'd consider using it on, HSol (there are 2 of them so why not - it's fun with AR), Destroyer (when I run out of Typhoon ammo or have depleted the PPR and need to shoot something), AIU (but I prefer the Raider) - niche.

 

Name any other kit to put it on and I've probably tried it and discarded it.

[d_nought]

I must be one of the few who really doesn't like how the Crusader sounds.  It sounds like a BB gun.

[Miniditka77]

I must be one of the few who really doesn't like how the Crusader sounds.  It sounds like a BB gun. I keep thinking the badass sound of a shotgun must be on a delay as well. It's the reason the Raider and Claymore are so attractive to me (oh yeah and monster damage).  The weight, look, recoil are fine. I can deal with the delay because I take stagger powers to help. It's the sound that throws me off. Shotguns should sound like God slamming his car door in the middle of a thunderstorm, not a BB gun.

 

What kind of awesome BB guns did you have?

[Miniditka77]

I don't understand why would it be worse at close range than the others you named. It is just as effective at close range as long range, and it is much, much better at longe range than the Graal, Raider, or the Talon and better than the wraith or claymore.

 

It's worse at close range because of the firing delay.  It's awful to have a gun pointed right at an enemy's head and fire and get nothing because of the firing delay.  It's really no worse at close range for this than it is at long range, it's just that misses are more costly at close range.

[DisturbedPsic0]

What kind of awesome BB guns did you have?

Awesome sounding BB guns? None. That's my point. The sound just doesn't make me think shotgun. It sounds more like a spud gun than a shotgun.

[Turian Master Race]

The delay thing has been gone over and over again, just a quick Google search pulled this up: http://forum.bioware...er-frame-rates/

 

 

Thanks for the link, very interesting read and it shows that there is no delay. Basically the crusader at 60 fps shoots back in time at 0.2 s. So it shoots immediately but it shoots at the position it was 0.2 s before. This is weird, this is a bug, but this is not a delay. Read Anno's post and watch the video by MaxShine (page 7).

 

It means that if you hold the gun steady for 0.2 s (which is roughly the time to make click) then it will shot exactly where it points. The target can move but it is only a problem with very fast lateral moving targets, like strafing troopers or centurions. To be honest I do not bother with targets like this, not just with the crusader but with others guns too. On most of the occasions there are better (easier) targets, so I do not see it as a big drawback. 

 

To sum up:

• it is affected by FPS, it is less pronounced with 30 then 60. At 30 the back-dating is less than 0.1 s, mostly negligible.
• IMO it is affected by the reflexes of the user. The average reaction time is around 0.2s interestingly, so it basically cancels out your reaction time, so the gun shots where the gun was when your brain gave the order. The shorter your reaction time the more prononced the effect could be.
• it is affected by the difficulty of the target.

 

Anyway OniGannon sums it up much better than I can (page 7) so I quote him:

 

 

But yeah, the Crusader doesn't punish good aim and reward bad aim. Aim has little to do with it.

It punishes twitch reflexes and realtime target tracking, and rewards prediction and planning.

Alternatively, it rewards the ability to fire the moment you see a red crosshair, regardless of where the hell your gun may be pointing.

You can actually track a moving target, but the gun has to be pointed ahead of them rather than on them, moving at a certain distance and speed such that the cursor is 0.2s ahead of them at all times. It would make for a hell of an addition to the aforementioned Weirdass Trickshot Vid, but seems like it would be a total PITA to do.

I understand that players with a lot of experience in more twitchy PvP FPSers could have difficulty with the gun, as it runs counter to what they are so accustomed to doing.

But it does not punish skill. It punishes certain habits and demands different ones. Saying it punishes skill or punishes aim is a bit like saying a cricket bat punishes baseball players.

[TheNightSlasher]

I am not a big fan of how crusader sounds. It lacks that feel which a saber of raider has.

 

Then again, there are only 4-5 guns whose sound I love. So, it hardly bothers me

[Kislitsin]

 To be honest I do not bother with targets like this, not just with the crusader but with others guns too. On most of the occasions there are better (easier) targets, so I do not see it as a big drawback. 

So nobody should?

 

And no, it actually doesn't shoot back in time. Dunvi, lately, explained the nature of "delay" in some AQ thread.

 

And that "200ms is the average reaction time" thingy. 200ms is the average reaction time for unknown stimuli, after some adaptation and learning the pattern of "obstacle" (exactly like it happens in FPS games) brain develops a new pathway, bypassing decision making.

For most PC players who used to play FPS the stimulus that evokes habitual LM click is the sight of an "enemy" in the crosshair. That's why crusader is so frustrating to use for a lot of us.

[capn233]

Yeah I don't know what he is getting at.

IIRC Dunvi was the one that figured this out.

 

The whole issue revolves around the way shotguns are built and how the pellets are spread out over time presumably so they don't all get shieldgated.  The way the formula works, Crusader gets max delay because it only has 1 pellet.  For all practical purposes, it doesn't vary with FPS unless you are talking about absurdly low fps levels.

 

 

 

SetTimer(FMax(0.001, LatentFireTime / float(PelletSpread.Length)), true, 'PollLatentFire');

 

LatentFireTime is 0.1

...

 

Pellet Spread is 8 for most shotguns and 1 for the Crusader.  Also note that the total length of time for a standard shotgun is also much lower than the Crusader.

[Dunvi]

 

 

 

The delay thing has been gone over and over again, just a quick Google search pulled this up: http://forum.bioware...er-frame-rates/

 

 

That thread was a good try but wildly incorrect, especially because of highly flawed testing methods and assumptions that are incorrect. When I stated the real problem with the Crusader (which capn has already stated for me) and that it was a 0.1s firing delay and nothing more, I also carefully dissected the likely inaccuracies that led to their original conclusions. I will see if I can dig up the posts maybe, not like I have anything more to do right now.

 

ETA:

http://forum.bioware...2#entry15377043

That's the thread where I initially explained the problem.

http://forum.bioware...bug/?p=15379994

That's where I discussed the inaccuracies with Chealec's link.

[megabeast37215]

That OniGannon post is spot on.

[BIGGLESBY]

The Crusader is an incredible gun that requires a bit of getting used to. That doesn't stop it from simply being a great gun because you can't use it.
 

 
Look at that monster.

[ThatOddGuy]

Played a match earlier today.

 

I usually rock the Claymore on the Drell Adept, but tried Crusader. I was not disappointed. Dominated Reapers on Goddess

[Turian Master Race]

That thread was a good try but wildly incorrect, especially because of highly flawed testing methods and assumptions that are incorrect. When I stated the real problem with the Crusader (which capn has already stated for me) and that it was a 0.1s firing delay and nothing more, I also carefully dissected the likely inaccuracies that led to their original conclusions. I will see if I can dig up the posts maybe, not like I have anything more to do right now.

 

ETA:

http://forum.bioware...2#entry15377043

That's the thread where I initially explained the problem.

http://forum.bioware...bug/?p=15379994

That's where I discussed the inaccuracies with Chealec's link.

 

Thanks for the info. In this case the situation even more simpler. The only problem is, as you said in one of these threads, that there are no audio or visual cues that would indicate this delay. I still think that this could be a problem only with extreme cases of lateral moving targets, which fits my experience.

[Turian Master Race]

So nobody should?

 

And no, it actually doesn't shoot back in time. Dunvi, lately, explained the nature of "delay" in some AQ thread.

 

And that "200ms is the average reaction time" thingy. 200ms is the average reaction time for unknown stimuli, after some adaptation and learning the pattern of "obstacle" (exactly like it happens in FPS games) brain develops a new pathway, bypassing decision making.

For most PC players who used to play FPS the stimulus that evokes habitual LM click is the sight of an "enemy" in the crosshair. That's why crusader is so frustrating to use for a lot of us.

 

I only explained my position why I ignore these kind of targets as much as I can. Obviously it is your choice, it is not my business. You should just learn to compensate for the delay.

[Chealec]

Thanks for the info. In this case the situation even more simpler. The only problem is, as you said in one of these threads, that there are no audio or visual cues that would indicate this delay. I still think that this could be a problem only with extreme cases of lateral moving targets, which fits my experience.

 

I find it a problem with targets that are moving (primarily Husks, Abombs, teleporting Banshees, Nemeses, Phantoms) unless they're running right at you (which thankfully Dragoons do) ... but I may have to admit, being (way) the wrong side of 35, my reactions are perhaps beginning to slow *shrugs*

 

But even without that weird delay - the gun would still be a niche gun for me; there are almost always better alternatives.

[Kislitsin]

I only explained my position why I ignore these kind of targets as much as I can. Obviously it is your choice, it is not my business. You should just learn to compensate for the delay.

No, I can just use Pally. At it's current stage crusader is barely a DMR which it pretends to be.

 

It's not Kishock, there is no real trajectory to compensate for, there is no slug travel time. With harpoon you can adapt to the trajectory of the harpoon and judge on distance, same with Graal. Crusader's slug will "land" on the target 0,1+ second later no matter what is the distance, that's extremely wierd and counterintuitive. Hence you (theoretically) need to predict where will your target be 0,1 seconds later which is barely possible unless you are geth.

Crusader has another problem, when you twitch-shoot stationary targets it misses. Unless the crosshair turns red - it misses.

[Chealec]

The Crusader is an incredible gun that requires a bit of getting used to. That doesn't stop it from simply being a great gun because you can't use it.
 

 
Look at that monster.

 

Now listen to it ... :|

[Kislitsin]

But even without that weird delay - the gun would still be a niche gun for me; there are almost always better alternatives.

Yeay. For the same weight one can take a boss-eater (Pirranha/PPR/Carrier/Hurrdurr) and a good pistol to kill mooks faster (M-11/Pally/LolArc/LolTalon).

 

To all those pros, who mastered the stock crusader (especially on PC), please enlighten me guys, demonstrate me your twitchshots with the gun, demonstrate me please how you "adapt" when shoot fast moving targets (esp with lateral movement).

[hostaman]

Yeay. For the same weight one can take a boss-eater (Pirranha/PPR/Carrier/Hurrdurr) and a good pistol to kill mooks faster (M-11/Pally/LolArc/LolTalon).

 

To all those pros, who mastered the stock crusader (especially on PC), please enlighten me guys, demonstrate me your twitchshots with the gun, demonstrate me please how you "adapt" when shoot fast moving targets (esp with lateral movement).

 

I find the best way to use it, is with either a stun/stagger power such as overload, or Geth scanner for wall hacks (or both!).

 

You're quite right, it requires such pin-point accuracy it can be tricky to hit enemies moving laterally. I find hitting a moving Phantom especially difficult. On the flip-side it is very satisfying when you head shot a small-head enemy.  When making multiple shots you also need to account for the massive recoil, but's it's such a predictable effect that you become familiar with it. You shouldn't need to waste any stability gear on it.

 

Just persevere, and also it becomes considerably better at higher levels.