448 réponses à ce sujet

[Allan Schumacher]

Spoiler

Well, it's not about whether or not she could "realistically compete", her survival was purely a matter of Peter catching her in time.

 

I'm not concerned with comic canon, the film is a separate artwork. Regardless of what happened in the comics Gwen's death wasn't necessary in the film because she'd already been effectively written out of it. She was on her way to Oxford. Peter could've realised that he had to stay behind to protect New York, and they could've broken up for good.

 

Instead, she had to die in order for Peter to have some sort of a "growth moment" that was crammed into the last five minutes of the movie. Like "lol, let's just fast forward past all that pesky grieving and get him straight back into the game". It's borderline insulting.

 

And let's face it. Death is completely meaningless in the world of comic books. If a character is popular, they'll be resurrected within a few issues anyway.

 

Amazing Spiderman 2 spoilers:

Spoiler

I had a feeling it was going to happen, especially once she was there helping Spiderman at the end.  While I'm at a point now that I can look at it and recognize "Hmm refrigerated," I don't know if if "she didn't have to die" is fair (Does anything ever *have* to happen?).  The movie established throughout that Peter had issues with the promise he made to Gwen's father, and it reinforces the general superhero theme about how those close to the hero are vulnerable due to their relationship (doubly so for "With great power comes great responsibility" built into Spiderman)

 

I like Gwen dying more than simply moving away and Peter finding a reason to have to stay in New York because it's permanent.  As someone that lost his brother when I was 13, I am not sure if anything I've experienced really compares to the finality and permanence of death of a loved one long before their time (and I have certainly had some downs in my life at other times too).  It more powerfully reinforces Peter's fear that "those that Peter cares about will be targets."  I also think it provides an interesting dynamic with Spiderman's relationship with the Green Goblin.

 

I once had someone trash talk me in a game of football saying "At least my brother's not dead."  I have never felt such rage before.  Had I had superpowers, the classmate probably wouldn't be doing so well.

 

Maybe this is cliche, maybe it could have been done differently, but I do think the movie needed to cement the risk Peter's relationships can have.  I don't think it would have worked as well for Peter to regress back to the state he was in early in the movie, where he was all "I'm sorry the risk is too much."

[In Exile]

I tend to do the same. After a while, two things in comics happen: each character dies and/or each character hooks up with another character. Then a new spin comes around and the entire previous series is made noncanon. 

 

I wish it were that simple. It's usually, character dies but their time-travelling body double from an alternative dimension that was cloned from a sweat sample from an old swimsuit  is back because Megadoom the Anihilator reset the omniverse (again). 

[Hanako Ikezawa]

I wish it were that simple. It's usually, character dies but their time-travelling body double from an alternative dimension that was cloned from a sweat sample from an old swimsuit  is back because Megadoom the Anihilator reset the omniverse (again). 

I do like though how some things stay constant after fans show either much praise or much displeasure at it. 

[DaySeeker]

Too much simplification.

 

Comics are going to bring people back.  hey are a monthly medium that struggles to continue as long as it can and will do what it needs to to maintain a readership. 

 

I understand the "killing women as easy emotional reaction" argument, but that only fits when the woman's primary characterization is that of dead girlfriend, if a female character is developed she has become more than relationship x. It's not female character is killed= misogyny; it can be important, interesting character dies based on events in game.  Otherwise you're left with a strange medium where no harm can befall women which would make story events lose impact when a player knows everyone is safe all the time.  

 

Again, this is one of the problems I don't think Bioware has.  Male and female characters die in Mass Effect, and the deaths have impact because these were well-rounded individuals we got to know, not just sexy cameos. 

[Lady Nuggins]

I understand the "killing women as easy emotional reaction" argument, but that only fits when the woman's primary characterization is that of dead girlfriend, if a female character is developed she has become more than relationship x. It's not female character is killed= misogyny; it can be important, interesting character dies based on events in game.  Otherwise you're left with a strange medium where no harm can befall women which would make story events lose impact when a player knows everyone is safe all the time.  

 

The difference is whether a female character dies simply to progress the story, motivations, and growth of a male character.  They can be a well-developed character, and still be fridged in a completely slapdash way.  One that got to me a lot was how Irene Adler is killed right at the beginning of Sherlock Holmes: A Game of Shadows, seemingly to free Robert Downey Jr. up for the events of the rest of the movie.  It does not matter how great of a character she was in the previous movie; her death was a meaningless handwave to get her out of the way.  It's not the fact that she's a female character that died that's a problem (of course female characters can be killed in all sorts of ways), but she died so Robert Downey Jr. could flirt with Jude Law and a gypsy lady instead.

 

But yeah, this is definitely not an issue that I've ever seen with Bioware.  I wouldn't say that even the murder of Hawke's mother could be seen as fridging.  It's treated with the appropriate amount of horror, and not as a rallying event to motivate Hawke to go on a glorious revenge mission.  

[karushna5]

Too much simplification.
 
Comics are going to bring people back.  hey are a monthly medium that struggles to continue as long as it can and will do what it needs to to maintain a readership. 
 
I understand the "killing women as easy emotional reaction" argument, but that only fits when the woman's primary characterization is that of dead girlfriend, if a female character is developed she has become more than relationship x. It's not female character is killed= misogyny; it can be important, interesting character dies based on events in game.  Otherwise you're left with a strange medium where no harm can befall women which would make story events lose impact when a player knows everyone is safe all the time.  
 
Again, this is one of the problems I don't think Bioware has.  Male and female characters die in Mass Effect, and the deaths have impact because these were well-rounded individuals we got to know, not just sexy cameos.

No my issue is that, It is done randomly, even when mundane guys die, they do it with their boots on. They die in a heroic saccrifice. No guy ever is going to die because their friend caught them wrong. They die saving the day in a blaze of glory. Their deaths make THEM seem awesome. Women are half the time killed offscreen and sometimes killed helplessly as the hero watches to make HIM seem pitied. Choosing your death vs being a helpless victim. I dont mean the leap to take the bullet as much as, in an action movie getting an action scene where they truly turn the tide for the hero in a really heroic way.

Mundane friends who die get that. Mundane women who die, dont. Their deaths are never on their terms, always on someone else. They are helpless. More than that, are you saying that if catwoman got more popular and batman much less so, and Batman was killed as he helplessly struggled away from one of her ex boyfriends of super evil, you wouldnt feel...cheated? Give a character more characterization and a stupid death becomes more unbearable, not less.

Super ladies should have epic deaths that are about THEM not their boyfriends. And mundane ladies should have epic action deaths that make us feel THEY are awesome and Tragic, not feel sorry for their boyfriends that wont care about them in a few months.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

We really watch and read different things, Karushna5. Most of my stuff has none of that, and if it does it is spread evenly. 

 

That said, I see your points. 

[In Exile]

No my issue is that, It is done randomly, even when mundane guys die, they do it with their boots on. They die in a heroic saccrifice. No guy ever is going to die because their friend caught them wrong. They die saving the day in a blaze of glory. Their deaths make THEM seem awesome. Women are half the time killed offscreen and sometimes killed helplessly as the hero watches to make HIM seem pitied. Choosing your death vs being a helpless victim. I dont mean the leap to take the bullet as much as, in an action movie getting an action scene where they truly turn the tide for the hero in a really heroic way.

Mundane friends who die get that. Mundane women who die, dont. Their deaths are never on their terms, always on someone else. They are helpless. More than that, are you saying that if catwoman got more popular and batman much less so, and Batman was killed as he helplessly struggled away from one of her ex boyfriends of super evil, you wouldnt feel...cheated? Give a character more characterization and a stupid death becomes more unbearable, not less.

Super ladies should have epic deaths that are about THEM not their boyfriends. And mundane ladies should have epic action deaths that make us feel THEY are awesome and Tragic, not feel sorry for their boyfriends that wont care about them in a few months.

 

Joss Whedon had a decent inversion of this in the firefly movie. 

[karushna5]

We really watch and read different things, Karushna5. Most of my stuff has none of that, and if it does it is spread evenly. 
 
That said, I see your points.

Really? I mean sometimes writers in comics get a good one for awhile, but eventually turn really disgusting when they change writers. I always thought it was inevitable.

What do you read I would love to be able to read something where this wasnt an issue so I could enjoy comics again.

[luckycooky]

TBh.

 

I think the most ppl have a right to complain about LI are the straight men.

 

Dragon age Orgins 

 

We have 2 Options 

One is a story telling Naive Girl. That always asums the best in people is she hears voice's in her head.

And the other one is ****** that follow's you so can make a crazy baby whit you.

 

 

Dragon age 2

 

We have someone that have slept whit everyone in kirkwall.

and a crazy chick that is obsessed whit a mirror  because somebody not realy close to here dies. Because of it 

 

i wish every group have atleast one good LI.But i dont think that will happen every game. So you win some you lose some 

(but meby is cullen a super LI for you)

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Really? I mean sometimes writers in comics get a good one for awhile, but eventually turn really disgusting when they change writers. I always thought it was inevitable.

What do you read I would love to be able to read something where this wasnt an issue so I could enjoy comics again.

Well, in terms of comics I read mostly manga. In them, the only real sexualization that ever happens is in appearances, and even then it is equal since both genders are made attractive(though only the women part gets negative responses). There's some kinds where it gets bad, but that happens in all forms of media and you pretty much know those ones will be like that before you even start. 

[Ryzaki]

Well, in terms of comics I read mostly manga. In them, the only real sexualization that ever happens is in appearances, and even then it is equal since both genders are made attractive(though only the women part gets negative responses). There's some kinds where it gets bad, but that happens in all forms of media and you pretty much know those ones will be like that before you even start. 

 

Oh god don't get me started on Hot Gimmick. I went in there expecting something funny and I ended up wanting her to end up with her "brother" rather than the main LI.

 

Thankfully they fixed that BS in the novels. It's a sad day when you root for the semi-incest option over the official couple.

[oceanicsurvivor]

He was completely over the top, needed to be center of attention, overly flirty- flamboyant.  He was thin, long-haired, very concerned with his appearance, and an elf.  Compare him to say, Sten or Oghren.  Girly.

 

While I understand what you are trying to convey here, please try and think about what you are doing by naming all these traits you feel are negative and then gendering them as girly or female.

 

 

Well, they're complete characters. When you create one, you have do define things they like and things they don't like. I feel it's wrong to change who they are because of what you want. That's not what we see in the real life, and it's good when a game keeps some level of realism.

 

Taking me as example, I would like to romance Bethany on DA2, but as Bethany is our sister I'm ok with she not being romanceable, because we don't see relationships between siblings very often. But for ME, not thinking as Hawke but as Rick, Bethany is the most lovely female companion in the game and I have to deal with the fact that Hawke can't have a romance with his sister.

 

This....feels dangerously close to the slippery slope falacy...'well if we let gay people sleep together, what's next incest!?'.

At best you're comparing apples and potatoes.

 

Does anyone actually play this game for the gameplay or story? I swear all I hear is moaning about there not being enough gay romances, too many gay romances, everyone isn't romancable by anyone. You know just cause you're gay doesn't mean your character has to be. I'm a straight guy I played through as a gay woman in DA once.

So, what you're saying is you, as a straight man, played through a game where two conventionally atractive women made out?

 

Seriously though, this is why Liara's romance was always so gross to me (personally). In ME1, her inclusion as a same sex option never felt progressive to me b/c if it was truly progressive then there would have been a male option, or all three would have been bi. As it was, I couldn't have a conversation with Liara without feeling like I had a fratboy dev standing behind me chortling and saying 'kiss already, it'll be hot'. And given that most of the same sex female options throuhout that series are not 'real' romances (they don't grant you the paramour achievement and/or they involve me making out with Jessice Chobat), that feeling of objectification above representation never really lifted in that series.

 

.Are there really that many games which imply that you are straight ?

 

I'll just...go by the games I can recall...Alpha Protocol, the Assassins Creed series; each protag, except maybe Connor? has a female love interest; multiple for Ezio. Batman in the Arkham games, clearly. Booker in Bioshock Infinite, the new Bound by Flame. ...Can I put Call of Duty here? I feel like I can put Call of Duty here. Deus Ex: Human Revolution, Jensen has a girlfriend person. The new Devil May Cry strongly hinted at Dante have feelings for that girl with the spray paint-oh and I think our intro to him is like, post threeway with two girls? Far Cry 3's protag has a girlfriend and first person sex scenes . Grand Theft Auto V. Heavy Rain.  Infamous 1, Cole has a girlfriend.  L.A Noire has some convoluted plot where the main character sleeps with a German singer lady;until that happens I think he was married. Red Dead Redemption. Sam Fischer from the Splinter Cell series...Star Wars Force Unleashed has Juno Exlipse. The Uncharted Series, with Drakes multiple li's. Same with the Witcher series.

 

In the interest of fairness, none of this excludes any of these protags from actually being bisexual/pansexual etc. However, there are no hints to this, so saying the devs intended for there to be any ambiguity would be a bold faced lie, and anyone making that claim would be doing so disingenuously. Also, obviously none of these games utilize romance the same way Bioware does, but the point stands that these are games where being straight is actually a part of the game, and that is b/c heterosexuaity is such a coded part of our culture that its inclusion is expected and weirdly unnoticed until it is discussed in the context of LGB or 'deviant' content.

 

The exceptions to the above list are: Skyrim, Kingdoms of Amalur (if you play as a woman there is an implied f/f romance...but its veeery much in the vein of the Liara romance from ME1, and if you play as a man, then yeah, it assumes you are straight). The Last of Us...if you squint a LOT. Dark Souls, cause, well, its Dark Souls. And Saints Row IV, which had some 'parody' romance scene things.

[Isabelle]

I’ll admit, reading the recent comments by David Gaider about romance in the upcoming DAI game has made me a bit worried. While nothing concrete has been said I’m really hoping, as a gay man, that my romance options have not again been narrowed down to abstaining or choosing a character simply because they’re the only other gay male. That’s what DAO was for me. I found it very frustrating that I couldn’t even express my interest in Alistair, even if it would have been just for him to turn me down. I would have been fine with that; it would have been a realistic way to show sexuality, rather than just making him 100% off limits to male characters. I was not interested in Zevran and since he was the only gay male option I simply abstained.  

 

Then there was DA2, I don’t know if calling the romance mechanics an improvement is accurate, but it certainly presented more choices of which I was very appreciative. I had expected Anders to be the only option for a gay male, and he was certainly the more overt of the two, actively coming on to your character and mentioning a previous relationship with a man (if you were a male PC), but I was pleasantly surprised at Fenris being a option as well! I was wary that the male character I wanted would not be available to me, but thankfully that turned out not to be the case. Still, I couldn’t reconcile the oddity of everyone being openly bisexual; it just struck me as unrealistic.  I kept waiting for a conversation regarding his sexuality that never came. So, while I appreciated the options, it certainly could have been executed in a more realistic way.

 

I don’t want options taken away from me in DAI (I must admit that is largely due to the fact that I have been waiting to romance Cullen as a male PC since he was first introduced in DAO), and while I don’t want the “everyone is inexplicably bisexual mode” either, I’d prefer that over pining over a character I cannot have. Since this forum is for suggestions, here is mine:

 

In an older Bioware game called Jade Empire, you could romance Sky as either a male or female PC, but what set it apart was how different the romance was for male PCs. He is seemingly a heterosexual man, having lost his wife and daughter, and if you’re playing a female character he will openly flirt with you and show interest. As a male PC, he shows no romantic interest unless you completely rebuff the two female LI’s, at which point he will “approach you with his suspicions,” where you can admit to being interested in him. It makes him uncomfortable and he doesn’t want to talk about it anymore until he’s had time to think. He is hesitant and unsure about beginning a relationship with you if you are a male PC, but eventually he falls for you. On the other hand, as a female he is very easy to romance.

 

I really find this to be a great alternative to either making everyone openly bisexual or restricting options. It shows a plausible way for the PC to romance whichever LI they want while still taking gender and sexuality into account. The character actually falls for the PC because of who they are, maybe in some cases despite their predisposition, and they still take gender and their own sexuality into account. I don’t know why this hasn’t been done again in any of the DA games (or ME in that case), but I really thought it worked very well. Anyone else have an opinion?

 

I agreed with you, but some characters in the history of the game already have their own sexual orientations, to solve this, I think Bioware should create dating with non-playable characters, of course with a certain variety of men and women as an option ...  for example:

 

My boyfriend or girlfriend live in Kirkwall, at different times that I go visit, different scenes of dating.

 

-Walking in the city (you can choose to hug, kiss or hold his or her hand)

 

We would have more choices, and not interfere with the game's story. 

[aTigerslunch]

This might cause some backlash, but my opinion is mine and others have their own.

Ok....before I keep continuing to read from where I was.....do what?!? White Isabella?! Traynor turned straight?! Hmmmm.....ok...... I know there are people that have issues with sexuality being set in games or not set in games. I didnt know about those and honestly hate those. I am a male, white in fact, but to change Isabella or Traynor does ruin them to me but its whomever uses its world instead and not my own. In DA2, when I turned companions down, at that point they were not viable for that play thru.

I prefer all open, and reasonable in-depth romances. Like JE, which was explained by OP if it didnt make sense, then I say no to that one.

[aTigerslunch]

Ok, caught myself up and I really oppose I like cats words. Too many games for us out there, I would prefer to move forward by opening games to others perspectives. My perspectives is all over, which actually is why I dont play most of them. I play Bioware, Bethesda and cant think of Fables company more cause they allow changes from the common dominant types. I dont have to be gay or bi to say we need more gays and lesbians LI's. I still oppose making Traynor straight cause their is so few as listed above my post. Straights do weigh more in LI numbers than others and it isnt fair.

I know I do prefer any and all being open like DA2, but as long as the set number of LI's are equal and believable, that would be fine. I dont want to see m/m getting screwed over again like normal or f/f, besides ME3 where straight females seems to been screwed over that time. At least Garrus is a well in-depth romance.

Honestly not sure why someone who doesnt care about romances would respond to a romance thread. Bioware trademarks romances into their games. Im glad they respond to their fans and try to work out solutions in some cases. Cant say its ideal hundred percent but Bioware does better than most in this case.

Sorry for doubling up like this. :/

[karushna5]

Well, in terms of comics I read mostly manga. In them, the only real sexualization that ever happens is in appearances, and even then it is equal since both genders are made attractive(though only the women part gets negative responses). There's some kinds where it gets bad, but that happens in all forms of media and you pretty much know those ones will be like that before you even start.

I used to be into manga but it is a hit or miss with me. My only really issue with, some, manga is somehow there is always a pervert who is supposed to be a lovable character with his antics rather than creepy. He is yelled at or slapped but he keeps doing it. But on the other hand I read a lot of fighting manga when I was younger so it may be unique to that genre.

Mostly these days I dont read it because I have to be reccommended it and it has to grab me. But most things I read are that way these days

[r1ck182]

This....feels dangerously close to the slippery slope falacy...'well if we let gay people sleep together, what's next incest!?'.

At best you're comparing apples and potatoes.

 

That's not what I said. It was just a example of how there is always something anyone would want different. I'm not very confident about my english and I'm sorry if I didn't keep it as clear as I would like.

 

Bethany was lovely and I would like to romance her. She was Hawke's sister, not mine, if she wasn't his/her sister, would have wished to do it. But she is, nothing to do about it, just pick someone else. Had fun even so, nothing to complain about it.

 

I'm trying to say there will always be things you wanted different in any game, but you still can have fun with the options they give to you.

[daveliam]

That's not what I said. It was just a example of how there is always something anyone would want different. I'm not very confident about my english and I'm sorry if I didn't keep it as clear as I would like.

 

Bethany was lovely and I would like to romance her. She was Hawke's sister, not mine, if she wasn't his/her sister, would have wished to do it. But she is, nothing to do about it, just pick someone else. Had fun even so, nothing to complain about it.

 

I'm trying to say there will always be things you wanted different in any game, but you still can have fun with the options they give to you.

 

I don't think people are disagreeing with you about having "fun" with the options that they have.  It's about having less options than everyone else.  If they split the LI's evenly across the gender/sexuality lines, then there will be no problem.  The OP's concern is about the games where it's not evenly split.  Unfortunately, that's much more common than equity.  In 6 out of 10 Bioware games with romance, gay males don't get a single option.  In two of the four where we do get romance, we have a single option, where straight men got two.  That means that only in TWO of the 10 Bioware games with romance do gay males even get a choice.  Interestingly, only in DA 2 did we get the same amount of options as straight guys because in ME 3, we had two LIs (finally!), but straight guys had SIX.  The most "fair" was the DA 2 approach, which they've said they are moving away from.  These facts are the reasons why the OP is concerned and I completely understand his concern.  I share it. 

 

With regard to Bethany, there is a HUGE difference between a character being unromanceable and a romanceable character not being available to you.  For example, Bethany is unromanceable to EVERYONE and it's clear why because of the story.  However, a character like Alistair barely discusses his sexuality and they already have a plot line for him if he romances a character who isn't a human noble.  There is really no reason for him to not be available to male characters given that it wouldn't change his character much at all and they could have just used the same plot line as the one for elf or dwarf females where Alistair can't marry you because he's king.  I know that some people just say, "Well, he's straight, so deal with it", but my point is that it's been a frustrating trend that the ones who keep getting restricted are the queer gamers.  If straight players had only had a choice in two games, but gay players had choice in ten games, I don't think that they would be saying that, to be honest.

[Riny]

Well now that I know that I can romance Cullen I'm a lot happier about the romance side of things, although Teagan would be nice too.

[I Like Cats And]

TBh.

 

I think the most ppl have a right to complain about LI are the straight men.

 

Dragon age Orgins 

 

We have 2 Options 

One is a story telling Naive Girl. That always asums the best in people is she hears voice's in her head.

And the other one is ****** that follow's you so can make a crazy baby whit you.

 

 

Dragon age 2

 

We have someone that have slept whit everyone in kirkwall.

and a crazy chick that is obsessed whit a mirror  because somebody not realy close to here dies. Because of it 

 

i wish every group have atleast one good LI.But i dont think that will happen every game. So you win some you lose some 

(but meby is cullen a super LI for you)

Don't talk about my waifus like that ;_; I'm just praying there are some unannouned qt3.14 female npc romances cause all the girls are kinda fugly. Cullens a qt, Beard Wardens a qt, Solas looks like Nic Cage so take that for what it is, Tevinter guy is a qt. Throw us straight guys a bone bioware

[XxPrincess(x)ThreatxX]

She is also the first openly lesbian character in the entire Star Wars universe.

Wasn't the Juhani romance supposed to have more content originally but Lucas Arts freaked out & had alot of it removed?

[aTigerslunch]

Im confused by the rant for straight male romances. Still trying to clear my brain from waking up a minute ago.

I wrote paragraphs on the absurdity but decided to back off instead of argue main stream. Its unfair to others, not straight men. Sorry. Im sure Isabella made Lucky and Cats happy though.

[sunnydxmen]

everyones is bisexual they just dont admit it we call that closet case.