448 réponses à ce sujet

[Cobra's_back]

I think derailing this topic into an argument of forcing sexuality on a character is unnecessary, i think Mr.House you may have actually misinterpreted slightly what has been said unless i have missed something. I don't believe people are saying it's ok to change Traynor's sexual orientation but it's abhorrent to mess with Alistair, there are certainly a few viewpoints in this topic right now but that doesn't seem to be one of them, again if i've missed something let me know.

 

Back to the topic though. I think making every character bisexual is one way of opening all options to everybody, however quality has to suffer, there is probably a venn diagram out there that expresses it to a tea. If each character has their own orientation a lot more of that character's trials and tribulations and life experience can be explored, just something to consider.

 

edit for god aweful typo

 

Actually I thought it was kinda of funny. I had a pretty good laugh when I saw my female Hawk push Fenris against the fireplace. Did it seem out of place to me? Yes it did.

 

I don't think it is easy for BioWare to give every option possible, but Bi-sexual should at least give the player max. possible LIs.

[Deflagratio]

How do I articulate how offensive I find the thread from a creative standpoint without overstepping my bounds and understating my opinion, while also keeping it from turning into a wall of text?

 

I think I have to fall to that old cliche of entitlement. The idea that a particular person deserves a character/person created just for their sensibilities is irritating to me. It's an ugly position in my opinion. Not much different than some of the optimized eugenics people who want to standardize body form. There's even uglier analogies I can pull up, but again I don't want to overstep myself here.

 

My disdain doesn't come from any ire against particular sexualities. Dragon Age could have an entirely Homosexual, heterosexual, asexual or bisexual cast. It would be disappointing from a representative standpoint, but the character is what matters, not if I can plow him/her. I'm not a professional writer (Which should be painfully obvious), but it doesn't seem like Sexuality is something you can "Determine Later" when creating a character. It's such an integral part of self-identity and development as a person, that treating it as a "Checkbox" completely flattens the character as a believable person.

 

The only real solution, is to create enough characters to satisfy everyone, and that's impossible obviously. Playersexual or Shallow bisexuality is not a solution, it's a problem added to another problem.

[Spirit Keeper]

I'm against any mod that changes a character from it's creators vision. Bug fixes, a morph tweak, a value change ect are fine, but changing a characters skin colour, gender what have you? Nope I don't support it and I don't care if it's a mod and I have every right in this thread to voice my distaste for that mod since it is part of the conversation.

There is a line between voicing and opinion and trying to force your opinion on others.  And I would like to mention 'creators vision'. Alistair, Vevran, Isolde, Ban Teegan etc faces morphs have changed between DAO and DA2. Cassandra has changed between DA2 and DAi, Morrigan has changed between DAO and DA.  Cullen has changed in all 3 games, so has armour design. I imagine Alistair will have a different face as well. Which one do we accept as the creator's vision? Just like Kaidan in ME3 being romanceable by male Shepard's and the face changes between games. The 'creators vision' changes it's more like 'creator's flavour of the month'.

[daveliam]

The only real solution, is to create enough characters to satisfy everyone, and that's impossible obviously. Playersexual or Shallow bisexuality is not a solution, it's a problem added to another problem.

 

I'm wondering what you mean by "shallow bisexuality"?  I hope that it means more than just the old "bisexuality has to 'make sense' for a character" or "they are only bisexual if they are promiscuous" things.  I'm genuinely interested in what you mean.  Because I agree that playersexuality is pretty awful, but I tend to have no problem with an all bisexual set of LI's.

 

I actually think that Sky's storyline, with the introduction of his bisexuality, was unique and interesting.  I wouldn't want all of them to be like that, but for his character, I enjoyed it.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

There is a line between voicing and opinion and trying to force your opinion on others.  And I would like to mention 'creators vision'. Alistair, Vevran, Isolde, Ban Teegan etc faces morphs have changed between DAO and DA2. Cassandra has changed between DA2 and DAi, Morrigan has changed between DAO and DA.  Cullen has changed in all 3 games, so has armour design. I imagine Alistair will have a different face as well. Which one do we accept as the creator's vision? Just like Kaidan in ME3 being romanceable by male Shepard's and the face changes between games. The 'creators vision' changes it's more like 'creator's flavour of the month'.

Appearances changing isn't an accurate comparison since that comes from changing game engines. You can't have the character look exactly the same when completely swapping engines.. 

[Nefla]

I don't know what I want more, but I hope you can at least try to flirt with characters that aren't interested in you (either because they don't swing that way, or because they aren't a LI) and have them turn you down like you can with Varric and Aveline.

[Thumb Fu]

I'm against any mod that changes a character from it's creators vision. Bug fixes, a morph tweak, a value change ect are fine, but changing a characters skin colour, gender what have you? Nope I don't support it and I don't care if it's a mod and I have every right in this thread to voice my distaste for that mod since it is part of the conversation.

 

I certainly agree to an extent, changing a characters skin colour to me is not acceptable, it speaks volumes about the mod creator and users of the mod. Changing a character's sexuality is more to do with the persons desire to romance the character and have that experience and have their dream virtual partner, is it WRONG? I don't think so, i think a change like that isn't hurtful or have any bigoted undertones again it's an expression of desire not hatred and prejudice. As for changing what the writers originally intended, there are 2 ways of looking at this. The first, is to say that when somebody creates something, then it is theirs, they have a say in everything that happens to that thing when they release it into the wild. Then there is the point of view that says when an artist has created something, and then exposed it to the world it then no longer belongs to them, it is for everybody to enjoy and the experience and yes maybe even manipulate into their own desires. Is either one right or wrong, thats a more philosophical debate than i think is possible here and now, with all the tensions and arguments that seem to have spurted from what i think was initially a pleasant and thoughtful OP, thus is the BSN though... apparently.

[Spirit Keeper]

Appearances changing isn't an accurate comparison since that comes from changing game engines. You can't have the character look exactly the same when completely swapping engines.. 

Leliana's face was pretty consistent between DAO and 2. But my argument was that you can't just say 'creators vision' when that vision isn't static.

[Deflagratio]

I'm wondering what you mean by "shallow bisexuality"?  I hope that it means more than just the old "bisexuality has to 'make sense' for a character" or "they are only bisexual if they are promiscuous" things.  I'm genuinely interested in what you mean.  Because I agree that playersexuality is pretty awful, but I tend to have no problem with an all bisexual set of LI's.

 

I actually think that Sky's storyline, with the introduction of his bisexuality, was unique and interesting.  I wouldn't want all of them to be like that, but for his character, I enjoyed it.

 

I should have said "Shallow Sexuality". Sexuality as an obligation to the player, instead of the character.

 

I'm not against a cast of All Bisexual characters either, but characters who were made bisexual? (Or any sexuality for that matter) The best example I can say to illustrate it, would be the Open-Sexuality mods for these games. It's as terrible as modding Samantha Traynor to be Heterosexual only. (In my opinion)

[Thumb Fu]

How do I articulate how offensive I find the thread from a creative standpoint without overstepping my bounds and understating my opinion, while also keeping it from turning into a wall of text?

 

I think I have to fall to that old cliche of entitlement. The idea that a particular person deserves a character/person created just for their sensibilities is irritating to me. It's an ugly position in my opinion. Not much different than some of the optimized eugenics people who want to standardize body form. There's even uglier analogies I can pull up, but again I don't want to overstep myself here.

 

My disdain doesn't come from any ire against particular sexualities. Dragon Age could have an entirely Homosexual, heterosexual, asexual or bisexual cast. It would be disappointing from a representative standpoint, but the character is what matters, not if I can plow him/her. I'm not a professional writer (Which should be painfully obvious), but it doesn't seem like Sexuality is something you can "Determine Later" when creating a character. It's such an integral part of self-identity and development as a person, that treating it as a "Checkbox" completely flattens the character as a believable person.

 

The only real solution, is to create enough characters to satisfy everyone, and that's impossible obviously. Playersexual or Shallow bisexuality is not a solution, it's a problem added to another problem.

 

Certainly some excellent points there, i might argue that people don't necessarily feel some entitlement toward a particular character, yes there will  be people who fall into this category but how about if people are simply passionate about a character, changing a character's sexuality so they fit your mould sounds abhorant on the surface, but break it down and what you are doing is re-writing the character so you can experience what they have to offer, it's a virtual character, a work of fiction i am referring to let me be clear i think brain washing and indoctrination of any kind is genuinely the single largest evil, free thought and self determination are very important things to me. Anyway, re-writing a character like that is not acceptable to some, to others it is an extension of fanfiction. how many dirty sleazy FF are there, yes they might be weird to some, to others its how they interact with a character they have desires of fantasies for. To re-instate my position, i think it is ok to mod a characters sexuality, i don't think it is right in the real world to try and force your pov or trying to change somebodies sexual orientation, the real world and games are two incredibly different things though.

[Deflagratio]

Certainly some excellent points there, i might argue that people don't necessarily feel some entitlement toward a particular character, yes there will  be people who fall into this category but how about if people are simply passionate about a character, changing a character's sexuality so they fit your mould sounds abhorant on the surface, but break it down and what you are doing is re-writing the character so you can experience what they have to offer, it's a virtual character, a work of fiction i am referring to let me be clear i think brain washing and indoctrination of any kind is genuinely the single largest evil, free thought and self determination are very important things to me. Anyway, re-writing a character like that is not acceptable to some, to others it is an extension of fanfiction. how many dirty sleazy FF are there, yes they might be weird to some, to others its how they interact with a character they have desires of fantasies for. To re-instate my position, i think it is ok to mod a characters sexuality, i don't think it is right in the real world to try and force your pov or trying to change somebodies sexual orientation, the real world and games are two incredibly different things though.

 

 

I'm not at all blind to the differences, trust me when I say it was no small effort reconciling my opinion with genuine sympathy for people who are left out. And I'm sure I'll see some posts in here that will further complicate my stance, and perhaps even reverse it. I'm open to new perspectives that might change mine.

[daveliam]

I should have said "Shallow Sexuality". Sexuality as an obligation to the player, instead of the character.

 

I'm not against a cast of All Bisexual characters either, but characters who were made bisexual? (Or any sexuality for that matter) The best example I can say to illustrate it, would be the Open-Sexuality mods for these games. It's as terrible as modding Samantha Traynor to be Heterosexual only. (In my opinion)

 

I can see where you are coming from with this opinion.  I would have liked to have seen the characters in DA 2 actually discuss their sexuality in some with the other characters.  The fact that people can see the same game, with the same content and have different thoughts about the sexuality of three out of the four LI's means, to me, that they could have done something better with that content.

 

I do have to say that I would take the DA 2 approach over the DA: O approach any day of the week though.  Given only some of the players choice in their LI is pretty crappy, imo.  If they could find a way to do that approach with more options for everyone, then I'd be pretty happy.  I'd like to think that this what they are going to do with this game.

 

I'm not really for or against mods, to be honest, probably because I'm a console gamer.  I think that creating a "make the dark-skinned woman white" mod speaks about the mentality of the creator, but I will never use it, so I'm not really terribly vocal about it.  If it were an official  patch, then I'd be upset.  But some player modding their game in a way that I find questionable?  Not worth my time getting upset about.

 

To bring it back around to the topic at hand, the discussion from the devs of having a character "coming to terms with their sexuality" makes me wonder if we'll have another Sky type character whose romance storyline involves overt discussion about their sexuality.  Intriguing, but also a bit concerning.  If done well, it could be great.  But there are so many ways it could go wrong.  I'm just going to keep being optimistic!

[Thumb Fu]

I'm not at all blind to the differences, trust me when I say it was no small effort reconciling my opinion with genuine sympathy for people who are left out. And I'm sure I'll see some posts in here that will further complicate my stance, and perhaps even reverse it. I'm open to new perspectives that might change mine.

 

I think that is a wonderful perspective to hold onto. It is fun to argue your point, and sometimes even playing devil's advocate to push a debate on and can yield some interesting results, but the most important thing is like you have just said, keep an open mind and at least try to understand other peoples POV, it can enrich your whole view of the world.

 

Regarding your points about shallow sexuality, i think making all character bisexual would certainly lead only to that, and having 4 different love interests for each sexual preference is not really feasible in a game unless it is a romance simulator above all else, but that is digressing. I advocate set sexuality for a given character, i genuinely think it will add more depth to the experience, even if there is only 1 or 2 options.

[Cobra's_back]

Rowe Wrote: "In an older Bioware game called Jade Empire, you could romance Sky as either a male or female PC, but what set it apart was how different the romance was for male PCs. He is seemingly a heterosexual man, having lost his wife and daughter, and if you’re playing a female character he will openly flirt with you and show interest. As a male PC, he shows no romantic interest unless you completely rebuff the two female LI’s, at which point he will “approach you with his suspicions,” where you can admit to being interested in him. It makes him uncomfortable and he doesn’t want to talk about it anymore until he’s had time to think. He is hesitant and unsure about beginning a relationship with you if you are a male PC, but eventually he falls for you. On the other hand, as a female he is very easy to romance."

 

I never played this game before. What if you didn't want the person to fall for you. Will they give you negative points like Anders? That really bothered me to get negatives when I never showed any interest. It happened with diplomatic Hawk.

[Rowe]

I do have to say that I would take the DA 2 approach over the DA: O approach any day of the week though.  Given only some of the players choice in their LI is pretty crappy, imo.  If they could find a way to do that approach with more options for everyone, then I'd be pretty happy.  I'd like to think that this what they are going to do with this game.

 

To bring it back around to the topic at hand, the discussion from the devs of having a character "coming to terms with their sexuality" makes me wonder if we'll have another Sky type character whose romance storyline involves overt discussion about their sexuality.  Intriguing, but also a bit concerning.  If done well, it could be great.  But there are so many ways it could go wrong.  I'm just going to keep being optimistic!

 

I agree. My initial point was rather than limiting options for some players, this is another way to handle the "everyone is bisexual," DA2 approach. It's just an opinion . I enjoyed the fact that the romance with Sky in Jade Empire was quite different depending on the sexuality of the PC, it added a nice hint of realism. 

 

There is no "right way" to approach romance in a video game, just different ways. Some people may not agree, which was the point of the topic. I was just curious as to other opinions on how romance could be approached in DAI, and was looking for other people's opinions. Thanks for yours! 

[daveliam]

 

I never played this game before. What if you didn't want the person to fall for you. Will they give you negative points like Anders? That really bothered me to get negatives when I never showed any interest. It happened with diplomatic Hawk.

 

I don't think so.  The initial conversation with him is just him asking why you haven't been interested in either of the female LI's.  I don't think that his romance initiates unless you actually express interest in him, after which then he comes back later to discuss your relationship.  I can't remember if there is any reaction from him if you pick the neutral "I'm just not interested in anyone" dialogue option.

 

That being said.  You didn't "get negative points" with Anders.  You got Rivalry points.  You can view them as "negative friendship" points, but that's not really what they are (although they do kind of function that way).  There are dozens of places where I get rivalry points with characters and it doesn't bother me because that's just them reacting to my character's actions.  That's kind of what I expect in a game like this.

[Rowe]

I never played this game before. What if you didn't want the person to fall for you. Will they give you negative points like Anders? That really bothered me to get negatives when I never showed any interest. It happened with diplomatic Hawk.

 

 

There was no point system in that game. If you rebuffed a character they seemed annoyed at first, but didn't mention it again and carried on as normal. I didn't like the negative feedback either! I thought it was cool that he came onto my male Hawke, I wasn't expecting that, but I wish there had been a way to turn him down without offending him! 

[Spirit Keeper]

There was no point system in that game. If you rebuffed a character they seemed annoyed at first, but didn't mention it again and carried on as normal. I didn't like the negative feedback either! I thought it was cool that he came onto my male Hawke, I wasn't expecting that, but I wish there had been a way to turn him down without offending him! 

Yeah, as the goodie-two-shoes I find it hard to do anything remotely negative so. Then again what am I saying!? I love to offend Ander! Question my choice of romance will you? Well take this! and that! and one of these!.

[Cobra's_back]

I don't think so.  The initial conversation with him is just him asking why you haven't been interested in either of the female LI's.  I don't think that his romance initiates unless you actually express interest in him, after which then he comes back later to discuss your relationship.  I can't remember if there is any reaction from him if you pick the neutral "I'm just not interested in anyone" dialogue option.

 

That being said.  You didn't "get negative points" with Anders.  You got Rivalry points.  You can view them as "negative friendship" points, but that's not really what they are (although they do kind of function that way).  There are dozens of places where I get rivalry points with characters and it doesn't bother me because that's just them reacting to my character's actions.  That's kind of what I expect in a game like this.

 

He gives you rivalry points for a neutral answer which really upsets me.  It was just inappropriate for a character to do this when you didn't even give them the slightest hint of interest.

 

As for the rivalry and friend points, I can pretty much control them depending on what quest I had.

[Rowe]

 I'm open to new perspectives that might change mine.

 

Very wise! Same here! I was hoping more people would share their opinions without getting offended by mine! 

[Spirit Keeper]

He gives you rivalry points for a neutral answer which really upsets me.  It was just inappropriate for a character to do this when you didn't even give them the slightest hint of interest.

 

As for the rivalry and friend points, I can pretty much control them depending on what quest I had.

He really wanted his vitamin D. D for Dick van ******

 

Edit: Really Bioware? You block his last name but not his first? Ruin my joke will you? Well take this! And that! And one of these!

[Cobra's_back]

There was no point system in that game. If you rebuffed a character they seemed annoyed at first, but didn't mention it again and carried on as normal. I didn't like the negative feedback either! I thought it was cool that he came onto my male Hawke, I wasn't expecting that, but I wish there had been a way to turn him down without offending him! 

 

I like your approach better. Sounds more natural and fun. Thanks for posting it.

[daveliam]

He gives you rivalry points for a neutral answer which really upsets me.  It was just inappropriate for a character to do this when you didn't even give them the slightest hint of interest.

 

As for the rivalry and friend points, I can pretty much control them depending on what quest I had.

 

Yeah, I get it, but I guess I just don't see it as such a big deal because there are ways around it.  It's not like you have to either romance Anders or get rivalry points.

 

From the wiki:

For a male Hawke who does not want to romance Anders, but at least gain some friendship, you can flirt with Anders ("At least he got a nice body."), ask the follow-up question ("Together?") and then select the "End romance" option. This will result in Anders: friendship (+5) and you will not be in a romance with him.

[Chashan]

Not really, people here are clearly supporting the mod that allows Alistair and Morrigan to have same sex, the Sam mod on the other hand had many people bashed the mod including it's creator. It's called being a hypocrite.

 

I remember that ugliness quite well, at that. Still, best to let that rest and think of the reaction of some users on that thread what is their due.

 

DO you also support the White Isabela mod too?

 

How much does 'bella's complexion factor into her character, though?

 

Genuine question, since, as far as I recall, it isn't brought up in the game, like, at all. It also does not much change the fact that she turns out to be a backstabbing wench in DA2's second act.

 

Anyway.

 

 

 

I don't know what I want more, but I hope you can at least try to flirt with characters that aren't interested in you (either because they don't swing that way, or because they aren't a LI) and have them turn you down like you can with Varric and Aveline.

 

I suppose that is a compromise I could deal with. That episode with Aveline is just too adorkable.

 

[Cobra's_back]

He really wanted his vitamin D. D for Dick van ******

 

Edit: Really Bioware? You block his last name but not his first? Ruin my joke will you? Well take this! And that! And one of these!

 

Actually, I thought the guy was a total whiny pain in the a**.