448 réponses à ce sujet

[stuffystuffs]

I’ll admit, reading the recent comments by David Gaider about romance in the upcoming DAI game has made me a bit worried. While nothing concrete has been said I’m really hoping, as a gay man, that my romance options have not again been narrowed down to abstaining or choosing a character simply because they’re the only other gay male. That’s what DAO was for me. I found it very frustrating that I couldn’t even express my interest in Alistair, even if it would have been just for him to turn me down. I would have been fine with that; it would have been a realistic way to show sexuality, rather than just making him 100% off limits to male characters. I was not interested in Zevran and since he was the only gay male option I simply abstained.  

 

You'll have choices apparently.  Can't comment on the quality of those choices though.

 

I'm against any mod that changes a character from it's creators vision. Bug fixes, a morph tweak, a value change ect are fine, but changing a characters skin colour, gender what have you? Nope I don't support it and I don't care if it's a mod and I have every right in this thread to voice my distaste for that mod since it is part of the conversation.

 

Don't use the mods?

[Ianamus]

Not really relevant to the main topic at hand, but I really don't like the idea of a male option only approaching you if you specifically reject all of the female LI's, like the OP stated was the case in Jade empire. 

 

I don't like the thought of having to "prove" your character is attracted to men by showing a lack of attraction to women, since the two are completely separate things. Not to mention the implication that your character must be gay if they reject the female LI's...

[daveliam]

Not really relevant to the main topic at hand, but I really don't like the idea of a male option only approaching you if you specifically reject all of the female LI's, like the OP stated was the case in Jade empire. 

 

I don't like the thought of having to "prove" your character is attracted to men by showing a lack of attraction to women, since the two are completely separate things. Not to mention the implication that your character must be gay if they reject the female LI's...

 

Well, to be fair, it was slightly more nuanced than that.  He approaches you to ask why you haven't expressed interest in either of the female LI's (who are very stereotypically "Bioware female LI's" in that one is the virginal "good girl" and the other is the saucy bisexual "bad girl") as they have both expressed interest in you.  At that point, if you say that it's because you are more interested in him, he gets flustered (not in a negative way, just more taken aback) and excuses himself to think about what you've said.  He then comes back later with interest in pursuing a relationship.

 

And, also to be fair, it was the first time that they had ever included a m/m LI, so while it wasn't perfect, it did lay the ground work for what was to come.  He was a much better written character than it comes across when you try to explain it.  Sky remains one of my favorite romances, even if he does suffer hard from Carth Syndrome.

[Cobra's_back]

Not really relevant to the main topic at hand, but I really don't like the idea of a male option only approaching you if you specifically reject all of the female LI's, like the OP stated was the case in Jade empire. 

 

I don't like the thought of having to "prove" your character is attracted to men by showing a lack of attraction to women, since the two are completely separate things. Not to mention the implication that your character must be gay if they reject the female LI's...

 

I agree. You don't have to be gay not to want the attention of a person that is the opposite sex. 

[Nocte ad Mortem]

I was really disappointed when I heard there would be set sexualities in DA:I, because gay men are traditionally the ones most likely to get screwed over by that system. It's difficult to stay optimistic, considering. The Jade Empire method of making the m/m option(s) mostly straight doesn't sound like a great alternative to me, though. I was already a little annoyed at how much Zevran seemed to favor women, even though I otherwise enjoyed him as an LI. 

[Cobra's_back]

I was really disappointed when I heard there would be set sexualities in DA:I, because gay men are traditionally the ones most likely to get screwed over by that system. It's difficult to stay optimistic, considering. The Jade Empire method of making the m/m option(s) mostly straight doesn't sound like a great alternative to me, though. I was already a little annoyed at how much Zevran seemed to favor women, even though I otherwise enjoyed him as an LI. 

 

As Rowe explained you don't take a negative if your not interested and that sounded great to me. So the Jade Empire beats the DAO & DA2 method.

 

I remember an unattached male could get a negative if you gave Morrigan the brush off. She hits on you after you kill her mom. There was an out if you had a LI. You could say that there was another and not suffer a negative.

[Hellion Rex]

even if he does suffer hard from Carth Syndrome.

Jesus, how many Carth Syndrome sufferers are there?

[Ianamus]

I was already a little annoyed at how much Zevran seemed to favor women, even though I otherwise enjoyed him as an LI. 

 

I liked the fact that Zevran had clear gender preferences because it felt very real.

 

I suppose it may be difficult for a lot of people to understand, but it's not really any different to someone who prefers tall girls with black hair falling in love with a short girl with blonde hair. The relationship is no less valid and no less enjoyable for either party.

[daveliam]

I was really disappointed when I heard there would be set sexualities in DA:I, because gay men are traditionally the ones most likely to get screwed over by that system. It's difficult to stay optimistic, considering. The Jade Empire method of making the m/m option(s) mostly straight doesn't sound like a great alternative to me, though. I was already a little annoyed at how much Zevran seemed to favor women, even though I otherwise enjoyed him as an LI. 

 

I think the big difference between Sky and Zevran were these:

Sky appeared to be straight, especially given that he was a widower who had recently lost his wife and daughter.  The only situation in which he appears bisexual is if the male PC flirts with him.  However, once he does end up in a relationship, he's supportive and romantic and monogamous.

 

Zevran, on the other hand, is openly bisexual regardless of the player's gender.  However, I found it very off-putting that he felt the need to go on and on about his attraction to females while in a romance with a male PC.  While it was in line with his character to be overtly flirtatious, given that he was the only m/m LI, I found it really uncomfortable that he clearly preferred females. 

 

Neither were well implemented, but both had some positive aspects to them.  And, again, they were the first two m/m options EVER, so I tend to cut them some slack.

[Mr.House]

I was really disappointed when I heard there would be set sexualities in DA:I, because gay men are traditionally the ones most likely to get screwed over by that system. It's difficult to stay optimistic, considering. The Jade Empire method of making the m/m option(s) mostly straight doesn't sound like a great alternative to me, though. I was already a little annoyed at how much Zevran seemed to favor women, even though I otherwise enjoyed him as an LI. 

If ME3 is any indication, straight females will get he bigger shaft.

[Nocte ad Mortem]

As Rowe explained you don't take a negative if your not interested and that sounded great to me. So the Jade Empire beats the DAO & DA2 method.

 

I remember an unattached male could get a negative if you gave Morrigan the brush off. She hits on you after you kill her mom. There was an out if you had a LI. You could say that there was another and not suffer a negative.

I don't really have a strong opinion about this issue. They can remove disapproval for rejection, it's fine with me. I just don't want m/m LIs that are obviously more into women. It was irritating with Zevran, already, and it was way less obvious than what's being described. I don't want to have to go to extra effort to romance an option while the other gender is actually getting their dialog in developing the relationship, not just getting around to starting it.  

[Cobra's_back]

If ME3 is any indication, straight females will get he bigger shaft.

 

That is true. I noticed that one. Good thing I didn't fall for the prize.

[daveliam]

Jesus, how many Carth Syndrome sufferers are there?

 

Jaheira was the original one, I think.  Then Carth.  Then Sky.  Then Thane.  Then Steve. 

 

I'm not sure if there were any in NWN, because I never played it.  And I've never done any romances in SWTOR since they took a set back and only offered m/f romances in that game.

 

I liked the fact that Zevran had clear gender preferences because it felt very real.

 

I suppose it may be difficult for a lot of people to understand, but it's not really any different to someone who prefers tall girls with black hair falling in love with a short girl with blonde hair. The relationship is no less valid and no less enjoyable for either party.

 

I understand that he had preferences, which is fine.  My issue was that he was the only m/m option and, outside of just one or two off-hand comments, all of his conversations were about women which made me think that he would just continue to sleep with women while my Warden wanted just monogamy.  No option, though because Zev was all I got.  If Alistair was also an option, I would probably not dislike Zev as much as I do.

[Nocte ad Mortem]

If ME3 is any indication, straight females will get he bigger shaft.

Straight women got more options, so I don't see how. Kaidan was our only companion LI and he was available to both genders. Cortez definitely is not a better option than Garrus and Thane. 

[Cobra's_back]

I don't really have a strong opinion about this issue. They can remove disapproval for rejection, it's fine with me. I just don't want m/m LIs that are obviously more into women. It was irritating with Zevran, already, and it was way less obvious than what's being described. I don't want to have to go to extra effort to romance an option while the other gender is actually getting their dialog in developing the relationship, not just getting around to starting it.  

 

Good Point. That makes good sense. I hope they don't do that in DAI. The Zevran romance seems like it wasn't well thought out.

[daveliam]

If ME3 is any indication, straight females will get he bigger shaft.

 

In ME 3, straight females definitely got the shaft.  However, in general, it's without a doubt gay males, and to a slightly less degree, lesbians who have gotten the shaft.  I did a little research on this and posted the data in the romance thread in the Story forum.  However, the gist is that straight males have been able to romance 96% of female LI's and over 50% of all LI's in general.  Straight females have been able to romance 98% of male LI's and about 45% of all LI's in general.  Lesbians have been able to romance about 20% of female LI's and about 15% of all LI's.  Gay males have been able to romance about 15% of male LI's and about 10% of all LI's. 

 

Not to make it a "who has had it worse game", but if we are comparing who has had more options in Bioware games, straight females are not on the bottom of the list at all.  But, again, ME 3 was shitty for straight females and it's the most recent game, so I can understand why it's fresh and feels worse than it is.

[Hellion Rex]

Good Point. That makes good sense. I hope they don't do that in DAI. The Zevran romance seems like it wasn't well thought out.

I enjoyed the Zevran romance a lot. Granted, that was my first experience with having a m/m romance in a video game.

[Ianamus]

I understand that he had preferences, which is fine.  My issue was that he was the only m/m option and, outside of just one or two off-hand comments, all of his conversations were about women which made me think that he would just continue to sleep with women while my Warden wanted just monogamy.  No option, though because Zev was all I got.  If Alistair was also an option, I would probably not dislike Zev as much as I do.

 

I can see why people be upset with that as their only option, but I dislike the general notion of 'he says he prefers women so our relationship doesn't mean as much if I'm male' that I've seen before, because speaking as somebody who also has gender preferences that's just not how it works. 

 

If he said that he found elves more attractive than humans and you were playing as a human would that make you feel equally uncomfortable? If so then that's understandable, because no-one wants to feel inferior. But if a gender preference bothers you more then I have to ask why that particular preference makes you more uncomfortable. 

[Cobra's_back]

Straight women got more options, so I don't see how. Kaidan was our only companion LI and he was available to both genders. Cortez definitely is not a better option than Garrus and Thane. 

 

I think Mr. House is talking about anyone foolish enough to have romanced Jacob in ME2. What happens when you see him in ME3. Glad I never romanced him.

[daveliam]

I can see why people be upset with that as their only option, but I dislike the general notion of 'he says he prefers women so our relationship doesn't mean as much if I'm male' that I've seen before, because speaking as somebody who also has gender preferences that's just not how it works. 

 

If he said that he found elves more attractive than humans and you were playing as a human would that make you feel equally uncomfortable? If so then that's understandable, because no-one wants to feel inferior. But if a gender preference bothers you more than I have to ask why that particular preference makes you more uncomfortable. 

 

Yeah, I understand your point.  However, I did recently replay the game and I can remember at least six different females that Zevran mentions that he's slept with or openly flirts with and only one male.  It's not that I don't think that he's genuinely interested in the Warden, but I do think that it indicates that males aren't his preference in general.  So, for my own personal preferences, I dislike having that as my only option for an m/m romance.  It felt very much in my face and it felt like an implicit message that, once again, the m/m option was really an m/f option who just had his gender check flag removed.  Again, in general I don't think it makes him a bad person or character or even m/m romance option.  I just found it very dissatisfying as I was not interested in him as my romance based on his personality.  Alistair and Kaidan are much more in line with what I would like to see as an m/m option.  Again, it's just my personal preferences regarding Zev.

 

Regarding the elf and human thing, it would probably not make me as uncomfortable unless:  a.)  he was my only option and I couldn't romance anyone else; and b.)  humans were historically underrepresented and marginalized in romance content.

[Nocte ad Mortem]

The thing with Zevran honestly didn't effect my enjoyment much. I still really liked his character. I'm willing to accept he just has a preference and my PC was an exception to this. What would be disappointing to me is if this started happening a lot and only having LIs that were mostly hetero, never mostly gay. 

[Cobra's_back]

In ME 3, straight females definitely got the shaft.  However, in general, it's without a doubt gay males, and to a slightly less degree, lesbians who have gotten the shaft.  I did a little research on this and posted the data in the romance thread in the Story forum.  However, the gist is that straight males have been able to romance 96% of female LI's and over 50% of all LI's in general.  Straight females have been able to romance 98% of male LI's and about 45% of all LI's in general.  Lesbians have been able to romance about 20% of female LI's and about 15% of all LI's.  Gay males have been able to romance about 15% of male LI's and about 10% of all LI's. 

 

Not to make it a "who has had it worse game", but if we are comparing who has had more options in Bioware games, straight females are not on the bottom of the list at all.  But, again, ME 3 was shitty for straight females and it's the most recent game, so I can understand why it's fresh and feels worse than it is.

 

Excellent data. Seems to me the straight male had it the easiest. Being straight female had to worry about the booby prizes like Jacob and Alistair.

 

Alistair even if you keep the romance until the end if you didn't do the DR he dies killing Archy. You were not allowed to leave him at the gate. He got locked in.

[Cobra's_back]

The thing with Zevran honestly didn't effect my enjoyment much. I still really liked his character. I'm willing to accept he just has a preference and my PC was an exception to this. What would be disappointing to me is if this started happening a lot and only having LIs that were mostly hetero, never mostly gay.

 

I see your point. They should fix this. 

[Paul E Dangerously]

I don't think so.  The initial conversation with him is just him asking why you haven't been interested in either of the female LI's.  I don't think that his romance initiates unless you actually express interest in him, after which then he comes back later to discuss your relationship.  I can't remember if there is any reaction from him if you pick the neutral "I'm just not interested in anyone" dialogue option.

 

That being said.  You didn't "get negative points" with Anders.  You got Rivalry points.  You can view them as "negative friendship" points, but that's not really what they are (although they do kind of function that way).  There are dozens of places where I get rivalry points with characters and it doesn't bother me because that's just them reacting to my character's actions.  That's kind of what I expect in a game like this.

 

Except I'm fairly sure the only place you get dinged for anything like sexuality or flirting is the Anders conversation. All the other shifts are actual, you know, things. Stance on Mages vs Templars. Hawke's actions or lack thereof. So on.

 

And also, two "yes" options and one "no" option that just happens to ding you the same amount of points that making someone Tranquil does comes off as railroading.

[daveliam]

The thing with Zevran honestly didn't effect my enjoyment much. I still really liked his character. I'm willing to accept he just has a preference and my PC was an exception to this. What would be disappointing to me is if this started happening a lot and only having LIs that were mostly hetero, never mostly gay. 

 

Totally agreed.  It's about the number of options.  Unfortunately, there are only 6 m/m options ever, so each one has a disproportionate effect on the perceptions.  With more and more m/m options, we will start to see some diversity in the options, I'm sure.

 

Excellent data. Seems to me the straight male had it the easiest. Being straight female had to worry about the booby prizes like Jacob and Alistair.

 

Alistair even if you keep the romance until the end if you didn't do the DR he dies killing Archy. You were not allowed to leave him at the gate he got locked in.

 

Yeah, that data is just quantity.  Not quality.  I can't speak to that because I haven't played most of the romances.  In fact, outside of Morrigan and Leliana, I've only ever completed the m/m options.