378 réponses à ce sujet

[Nocte ad Mortem]

Over representation of white people in a mostly white country? If a creator wants a white character because he is white and identfies with white people more, I don't think its okay to say "Sorry there are too many white characters in this mostly white nation." Or say if I was in the middle east and it was "Sorry but he can't be middle eastern, he needs to be white because there are too many middle eastern characters"

 

Both sides want a character based on color, one side is trying to force their views about "Equal representation" on the other, when neither should. While the other side goes to other media and forces their view of "Marketable" on the other. Neither is right.

70% white isn't 100% white. 30% is a pretty big market to ignore. 

 

"Over representation" doesn't even mean minorities are equally represented by sheer numerical value. It doesn't mean the same amount of whites, blacks, Asians, hispanics, etc. It means, even with blacks making up 12-14% of the population, the amount represented in media is well below that number. 

 

I also think there's a problem if the creator is only writing white people because he can only relate to white people. Maybe the company should consider hiring more versatile writers, in this case.  

[Battlebloodmage]

Depends on the movie.

Actually, most movies have casting roles specifies the race. Some of my friends are actors and I saw the casting notices, so I know. 

[Kaibe]

Because the majority of the Western world is inherently white? Would it stun you to learn that the film industry in India generally prefers Indian actors for example? Is everybody somehow an evil racist for this? This bizzare thinking is simply not applicable in reality. Is an author a racist, sexist, and homophobe by creating a character who is a straight white male?

Well what about women? If they are 51% of population shouldn't we see more marketing towards them? Maybe in India they have marketing Indians in mind, but what does Bioware have in mind? They're not all straight white males, they know we aren't all straight white males, why shouldn't they change it up occasionally?

[TCBC_Freak]

Nick Fury and Spiderman are black/Hispanic in the Ultimate world, not in the mainstream version. The movie version based loosly on the 616 as opposed to the Ultimate. No, Keanu is not even half Asian, and it wouldn't matter either way because the intention is to have a white looking character since full Asian in leading role is not viewed as desirable. Goku has black hair and dark eyes in the manga. He's an alien which is convenient for them to be make into a white person, but it could likely be argued as an excuse though since there are already evidences pointing toward the Asian being viewed as undesirable and stereotyped by the general public. I'm not sure about your point, are you trying to argue that Asians are not being looked down at all by Hollywood and the yellowfacing doesn't exist or something? Even if Goku is an alien, they go for the white default should be obvious why they would do that. The rest of the cast is Asian is because they ain't important, and Hollywood think that it's a good way to throw Asian audience a bone. In Romeo must die, the Asian didn't get the girl because the audience disapprove of it. In Tokyo Drift, the protagonist were supposed to be an Asian person but were changed because of Asian being viewed as undesirable once again. Like I said, it's catch-22. Hollywood doesn't want Asian because they think the public doesn't like it. The public is not familiar with it because the media doesn't put out Asian lead roles. 

 

 

Keanu is half-Hawaiian, that’s an Asian people group. My point about Goku being made white to set him apart was because you said if there was any logical reason to do it you wouldn’t be so upset. The logical reason was to show that Goku was different, not that “he’s a white guy and they aren’t,” just that he was different, which, yeah could have been done if they had made Goku black or Hispanic; but they (as an American film company) made him white. And one of my main points was that Hollywood movies are just that, Hollywood movies, so yeah, they may gravitate towards white protagonists, but Chinese films have Chinese main characters, Bollywood uses Indian actors, and German films use Germans, it’s because of where the films are being made, by who and for whom.

 

You are saying that Hollywood under uses Asian actors and that has some truth to it (one reason may also be that many of the greatest Asian actors have trouble with speaking English so if I were making an English film I might want my main character to have a voice that is easy to understand), but the Chinese and Indian film industry uses Asians almost exclusively. And in Romeo Must Die, him not getting the girl has nothing to do with him being an Asian actor in an "American" film. There are literally thousands of movies where the white main character doesn’t, “get the girl,” because the story has nothing to do with that. In the Tuxedo, Jackie gets the girl, so you give one example where the Asian guy doesn’t get her and I give one where he does, it’s a false argument. And from my understanding the protagonist of Tokyo Drift was supposed to be Paul Walker, the main character in all the other FaF movies but he couldn’t do it because of a scheduling conflict. So we have different info about how that was, “Supposed,” to be.

 

My main point is simple, you can find racist action in non-racist things if you really want to. And I’ve gotten a little long winded and my point may have dirfted, but this: the American film industry tends to hirer American actors, it isn’t because anyone is racist or looks down on any one. You find what you want to find, if you think your wife is cheating on you and you look at her texts and see her boss said she looked nice today you’ll think they were doing it, not because they were but because that’s what you want to see. You see Americans hiring Americans and cry that it is wrong, but you see a Chinese film company only hiring Chinese people and have no problem?

[O_OotherSide]

This is the reason why. Granted, it's representation on YA novel covers, but I am sure that it is largely the same throughout all western media.

 

PoC are very underrepresented. That should be reason enough.

Its not. You want something based on race and think its okay to force white people out because they are the majority. It's not okay to force a creative person to change their creation because it makes you feel better. Its not okay to go into another nation and tell them they need more blacks/asians/latinos in their culture because it makes you feel better. There are less PoC in america and that is represented in the media by the fact that there are less PoC in media.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

That's not what he asked you.

He asked me  "Can you guess which one is the most common?" when referring to casting and races, to which I replied depends on the movie which it does. If a movie takes place in a setting that has mostly white people, it's white. If it is in a setting with mostly black people, it's black. If it's asian, it's asian. Hispasnic, it's hispanic. Etc. Etc.

 

My answer is a perfectly viable one.

[A Crusty Knight Of Colour]

On topic: Outside of BioWare's cheapshot at the trans* community through Serendipity, they have been fairly good at avoiding misrepresentation of minorities. Well, depending on how you view the treatment of Jacob in Mass Effect and how you felt about certain elements in Jade Empire, I guess. But nothing intentional worth getting shrill over.

 

With regards to trailers, I advocate that the trailers show off the extensive CC and a montage the game reacts to players of different race/class/etc through cinematic clips wherein your decisions in character creation affect how the scene plays out.

 

There was a snippet of New Vegas' E3 trailer that I really enjoyed, where they demonstrated the faction system with the player character walking and the locales transitioning along with their outfits. From Caesar's camp in Legion garb, an NCR camp with appropriate attire, and New Vegas proper in a vault suit.

 

 

1:06 - 1:10, it's very brief.

 

I would like to see a similar idea take place in an Inquisition trailer, where the race/colour/gender of the protagonist is transitioned along with their attire and the background locale in a seamless manner, and it showing how changing race/gender/class/faction affects the dialog/choices/cinematics.

 

Essentially, I would want the game trailer to show off the game's features. Which is ideally what they're meant for. If said way happens to feel more inclusive, then fantastic. Of course, it is the god of marketing and profit margins that determines what kind of trailer and promotional material will be featured in the end.

[O_OotherSide]

Why is the majority "inherently" white? Are you saying that people become white by virtue of being the majority? Probably not.

 

Are you saying that if the majority population shifted to favour some other ethnic group, we'd suddenly see an influx of movies with black, hispanic, Asian or other protagonists?

 

Would it stun you to learn that well-known white actors probably don't want to work in niche, foreign films? Would it stun you to learn that authors who try to write protagonists of colour often get their work rejected by publishing companies on the basis that the protagonist is "not relatable"?

 

Would it stun you to learn that I'm not attacking individual content creators, but examining the wider, societal context in which their work appears?

The majority if white because the majority have lighter shade of skin and are reffered to as white. Would it shock you to learn that white people don't want to be forced out of work to make you feel better?

[Kaibe]

Keanu is half-Hawaiian, that’s an Asian people group. My point about Goku being made white to set him apart was because you said if there was any logical reason to do it you wouldn’t be so upset. The logical reason was to show that Goku was different, not that “he’s a white guy and they aren’t,” just that he was different, which, yeah could have been done if they had made Goku black or Hispanic; but they (as an American film company) made him white. And one of my main points was that Hollywood movies are just that, Hollywood movies, so yeah, they may gravitate towards white protagonists, but Chinese films have Chinese main characters, Bollywood uses Indian actors, and German films use Germans, it’s because of where the films are being made, by who and for whom.

You are saying that Hollywood under uses Asian actors and that has some truth to it (one reason may also be that many of the greatest Asian actors have trouble with speaking English so if I were making an English film I might want my main character to have a voice that is easy to understand), but the Chinese and Indian film industry uses Asians almost exclusively. And in Romeo Must Die, him not getting the girl has nothing to do with him being an Asian actor in an "American" film. There are literally thousands of movies where the white main character doesn’t, “get the girl,” because the story has nothing to do with that. In the Tuxedo, Jackie gets the girl, so you give one example where the Asian guy doesn’t get her and I give one where he does, it’s a false argument. And from my understanding the protagonist of Tokyo Drift was supposed to be Paul Walker, the main character in all the other FaF movies but he couldn’t do it because of a scheduling conflict. So we have different info about how that was, “Supposed,” to be.

My main point is simple, you can find racist action in non-racist things if you really want to. And I’ve gotten a little long winded and my point may have dirfted, but this: the American film industry tends to hirer American actors, it isn’t because anyone is racist or looks down on any one. You find what you want to find, if you think your wife is cheating on you and you look at her texts and see her boss said she looked nice today you’ll think they were doing it, not because they were but because that’s what you want to see. You see Americans hiring Americans and cry that it is wrong, but you see a Chinese film company only hiring Chinese people and have no problem?

"Americans hiring Americans?" So an Asian American or other poc don't count as American?

[tara]

I always thought that trans people want to be of the other gender, so wouldn't playing as the other gender would suffice that? I'm not trying to offend anyone, so I'm just trying to understand it. I would refer to a transwoman as she and transman as he since that's the gender they would like to be. Anyway, there is a very respectable transwoman in DA series. Her name is Maeveris. She's Varric's cousin's wife.

 

-snip pics for length reasons-

 

Aye, trans people pretty much do wish to pass as their identified gender, but there are plenty of us who's identity as a trans person plays just as much a role in how we see ourselves as our gender. Also, PS, "other" and similar words are ones I'd avoid when talking about gender, since there are some of us who aren't men or women and are therefor not "opposites" of anything. More than two gender identities! ["The More You Know" star flies through the sky]

 

TBH, if I was the one who got to choose how to make a character creator, I'd completely separate gender choice and body type choice. Wanna be a woman with rockin pecs that would make even the strongest of strongmen weep? HECK YEAH. Want to be a dude with hella curves? Right on! Want to be a vaguely humanoid figure with an indeterminate gender identity? Why not? Go for it!

 

I was also talking a bit about NPCs/companions who would be trans in my original post, and I'd personally prefer it that if they existed that their personal story wouldn't be a sad sad mcdysphoria one since there are so many of those stories about Sad Trans People already and I'd like one where being trans wasn't treated like some kinda curse that needed to be cured by doin the frick-frack and ~~~~tru wuv~~~~. 

 

Also, I didn't know about Maeveris! It's really refreshing to see a trans character that isn't a joke, thanks for bringing her existence to my attention. :-)

 

aaaah, this post really got away from me...

[Hanako Ikezawa]

On topic: Outside of BioWare's cheapshot at the trans* community through Serendipity, they have been fairly good at avoiding misrepresentation of minorities. Well, depending on how you view the treatment of Jacob in Mass Effect and how you felt about certain elements in Jade Empire, I guess.

Serendipity was supposed to be more of a drag queen than a transexual, but they didn't have the resources to pull it off. 

[Battlebloodmage]

Keanu is half-Hawaiian, that’s an Asian people group. My point about Goku being made white to set him apart was because you said if there was any logical reason to do it you wouldn’t be so upset. The logical reason was to show that Goku was different, not that “he’s a white guy and they aren’t,” just that he was different, which, yeah could have been done if they had made Goku black or Hispanic; but they (as an American film company) made him white. And one of my main points was that Hollywood movies are just that, Hollywood movies, so yeah, they may gravitate towards white protagonists, but Chinese films have Chinese main characters, Bollywood uses Indian actors, and German films use Germans, it’s because of where the films are being made, by who and for whom.

 

You are saying that Hollywood under uses Asian actors and that has some truth to it (one reason may also be that many of the greatest Asian actors have trouble with speaking English so if I were making an English film I might want my main character to have a voice that is easy to understand), but the Chinese and Indian film industry uses Asians almost exclusively. And in Romeo Must Die, him not getting the girl has nothing to do with him being an Asian actor in an "American" film. There are literally thousands of movies where the white main character doesn’t, “get the girl,” because the story has nothing to do with that. In the Tuxedo, Jackie gets the girl, so you give one example where the Asian guy doesn’t get her and I give one where he does, it’s a false argument. And from my understanding the protagonist of Tokyo Drift was supposed to be Paul Walker, the main character in all the other FaF movies but he couldn’t do it because of a scheduling conflict. So we have different info about how that was, “Supposed,” to be.

 

My main point is simple, you can find racist action in non-racist things if you really want to. And I’ve gotten a little long winded and my point may have dirfted, but this: the American film industry tends to hirer American actors, it isn’t because anyone is racist or looks down on any one. You find what you want to find, if you think your wife is cheating on you and you look at her texts and see her boss said she looked nice today you’ll think they were doing it, not because they were but because that’s what you want to see. You see Americans hiring Americans and cry that it is wrong, but you see a Chinese film company only hiring Chinese people and have no problem?

No, his Hawaiian ancestry were mixed with a bunch of European, and that wouldn't be my point anyway. He still looks white, and that's the reason why he was casted to play that part. Your reason for why Goku would be a white guy would be your hypothesis, not what actually happen. I have other cases where the races were changed to use it as a possible reason why Goku were made a white person. America is a multi-cultural country. The countries you mention is usually more homogeneous.

 

Many of the greatest Asian actors have problem speaking English because they were famous in their country. The actors who are born here don't have a chance to prove themselves because there are no roles for them to play. Since most of the roles either don't exist or rewrite to be played by a white actor. Actually, in Romeo Must Die, the tested audience didn't like the first ending where he gets the girl, so they changed it. It wasn't because it wasn't being made, it was there but changed because the audience dislike it. Tell me how that's not racism. The conception of the movie was to feature an Asian actor, yes, but they change it. Paul Walker was after the script has been changed to feature a white actor in it. I think it's also a problem when people think racism doesn't exist. Of course it is easier to hand wave the problem as if it doesn't exist than facing the alternative that racism is still alive and well, I guess. I love how you say Americans tend to hire Americans as if Asians are not Americans.

[Boisterous Bob]

I'm gonna stop you right here. I'm sure you don't intend for this to be insulting, but... It is. Things like "we all bleed red! We're all human!" actually dismisses the differences we have as human beings. We should be CELEBRATING was makes each of us unique, and saying "We're all the same in the end," is the opposite of that. So please, do not say this like this because it is racist* and can even go as far as downplay or even erase the impact a persons culture had on them as a person.

 

*I am not trying to call you a bad person, or that YOU are a racist, but that the phrase is.

Kudos to you for being mature and respectful in your disagreement, but honestly I don't think it's fair to say, "Don't say this because it's racist" simply because those words have been used to justify racism by other people at some point. The phrase itself (especially in the context of the person who posted it) was not carrying the message Race is meaningless but rather Race is not ALL that we are. 

 

It makes me more than a bit upset.

 

At best, BioWare is incredibly ignorant. Most likely, it's simply thoughtless.

 

At worst, they actively tricked LGBT gamers into indirectly giving their money to an individual who seeks to deny them equality.

No. No, I really don't think so. That's like people complaining that "my tax dollars went to such and such, which I don't agree with, that's unjust!" In modern society it is impossible to avoid giving some support, however indirectly, to people whom you disagree with vehemently and whom you think are morally reprehensible. Doesn't make it unjust, though. It's absurd to say that you should only buy things from companies made up 100% of people who are virtuous. (Or that BioWare could be said to have "tricked" anybody...)

Now, that said, OSC's Dragon Age comics were some of the sh*ttiest piles of drivel I've ever read, so I've got no problem personally with hating on them for that reason.    (And Ender's Game was an overrated book, too.)

 

why don't you just answer the question instead of wasting my time with a smartass answer like that's not even what i meant

This is the HEIGHT of laziness.

 

If they could get a black actor who did the part just as well or even better than Cranston? Yes.

 

To be honest though, I'm pretty sure the show would've never gotten off the ground if they had a black actor because all anyone would ever see is "black dude makes drugs" and dumped the show right then and there b/c of what I said earlier about how white dudes are easier to relate to than PoC. People wanna know why a white teacher resorts to making drugs, but a black guy making drugs? Well, that's just what they do, right? Who wants to watch THAT? /sarcasm, rolls eyes

I'm not sure what to make of this. So, if Breaking Bad has a white actor when they could have had a black actor instead, it's unfair casting; but if it has a black actor, then it's unfair stereotyping? And how can you criticize stereotyping that "would have happened" if they had done such-and-such? Isn't that a pretty closed-minded stereotyping itself? Or have I simply misunderstood you?

 

Please don't involve us with him.   

 

I hate that people are expected to rush to say, "No, no, we're not ALL like that!" as if, somehow, failing to actively distance yourself from a person is the same thing as associating with them or even being complicit in all their actions.

I don't blame you in the slightest for wanting to avoid association with OSC, but you're not obliged to by any means; that's not your responsibility!

 

The LDS has a long history of institutional racism, sexism, homophobia, pedophilia, and attempting to overthrow the United States government. I would think Card would rather not be associated with such an organization than the other way around...

I know we need to get this thread away from personal arguments and keep it on track, but are you serious??

A writer is brought up, someone says, "Oh isn't he from this religion?", and someone from that religion voices discomfort at being associated with him...

And you say that?

Not even in reference to the first post, but directly responding to the person from that same religion who doesn't want to be lumped together with OSC?

Dude, get that sh*t outta here. Seriously if that's how you approach the subject then just log off and go home.

[Nocte ad Mortem]

"Americans hiring Americans?" So an Asian American or other poc don't count as American?

Keanu Reeves, born in Lebanon, citizen of Canada.

 

AMERICANS HIRING AMERICANS

[O_OotherSide]

70% white isn't 100% white. 30% is a pretty big market to ignore. 

 

"Over representation" doesn't even mean minorities are equally represented by sheer numerical value. It doesn't mean the same amount of whites, blacks, Asians, hispanics, etc. It means, even with blacks making up 12-14% of the population, the amount represented in media is well below that number. 

 

I also think there's a problem if the creator is only writing white people because he can only relate to white people. Maybe the company should consider hiring more versatile writers, in this case.  

 

I worked for a company and was the only white person in my department. Everyone else was puerto rican or cambodian. It was run by 2 Cambodian people and thus hired mostly other Cambodians. Should they have stopped hiring other Cambodians because they didn't have enought white/black people, even if they were hard working? Are they raciest for hiring mostly Cambodians?

[Steppenwolf]

Well what about women? If they are 51% of population shouldn't we see more marketing towards them? Maybe in India they have marketing Indians in mind, but what does Bioware have in mind? They're not all straight white males, they know we aren't all straight white males, why shouldn't they change it up occasionally?

Tons of media and products are marketed specifically at women. And why is it only the responsibility of white men to make way for everyone else? The Indian film example is a good one. No one complains that Indian entertainment doesn't have enought white people even though there are hundreds of thousands of white people in India. What about Japanese entertainment? Japan has a very xenophobic culture but I never see anyone saying that Japanese people are overrepresented in Japanese media. It's all about this white guilt that the politically correct crowd insist all white people must feel for having the audacity to be born white.

[ZombieOberyn]

Why is the majority "inherently" white? Are you saying that people become white by virtue of being the majority? Probably not.

 

Are you saying that if the majority population shifted to favour some other ethnic group, we'd suddenly see an influx of movies with black, hispanic, Asian or other protagonists?

 

Would it stun you to learn that well-known white actors probably don't want to work in niche, foreign films? Would it stun you to learn that authors who try to write protagonists of colour often get their work rejected by publishing companies on the basis that the protagonist is "not relatable"?

 

Would it stun you to learn that I'm not attacking individual content creators, but examining the wider, societal context in which their work appears?

Why is the majority of the population in Western civilization white? The short answer is a combination of history and how society functions. Ethnic groups form along geopolitical lines that. No neither of those claims stun me and I don't see why they should. That is the way things work in reality. Ben Affleck has more than enough money where he probably isn't interested in doing some niche film in Thailand and all authors have to deal with publishing companies who are concerned with business and sales foremost by nature of what they do.

 

So what is your point here? That the human brain does indeed recognize and react differently to race?

[Wolfen09]

its because we are worried about backlash from people like jesse jackson and stuff... who the hell cares, get over it... and if you cant, then contribute and try to change it instead of complaining about it

[Rusty Sandusky]

Keanu Reeves, born in Lebanon, citizen of Canada.
 
AMERICANS HIRING AMERICANS

Canadia, America, Lebanonia. All these countries sound the same.

[Nocte ad Mortem]

I worked for a company and was the only white person in my department. Everyone else was puerto rican or cambodian. It was run by 2 Cambodian people and thus hired mostly other Cambodians. Should they have stopped hiring other Cambodians because they didn't have enought white/black people, even if they were hard working? Are they raciest for hiring mostly Cambodians?

If they actively avoid hiring people of other races based purely on bias towards one race then, yes, they were racist. This situation is, again, ignoring context. 

[Mockingword]

He asked me  "Can you guess which one is the most common?" when referring to casting and races, to which I replied depends on the movie which it does. If a movie takes place in a setting that has mostly white people, it's white. If it is in a setting with mostly black people, it's black. If it's asian, it's asian. Hispasnic, it's hispanic. Etc. Etc.

 

My answer is a perfectly viable one.

No, it's not, he asked you to guess which race is most commonly asked for in casting calls for all movies.

 

"Depends on the movie" is not a valid answer, because he's asking you to identify an overarching trend across the entire industry.

[Steppenwolf]

I know we need to get this thread away from personal arguments and keep it on track, but are you serious??
A writer is brought up, someone says, "Oh isn't he from this religion?", and someone from that religion voices discomfort at being associated with him...
And you say that?
Not even in reference to the first post, but directly responding to the person from that same religion who doesn't want to be lumped together with OSC?
Dude, get that sh*t outta here. Seriously if that's how you approach the subject then just log off and go home.

I stated a fact and added some insight. Card is a bigot, but acting like he's an aberration in the LDS is nonsensical.

[Kaibe]

Tons of media and products are marketed specifically at women. And why is it only the responsibility of white men to make way for everyone else? The Indian film example is a good one. No one complains that Indian entertainment doesn't have enought white people even though there are hundreds of thousands of white people in India. What about Japanese entertainment? Japan has a very xenophobic culture but I never see anyone saying that Japanese people are overrepresented in Japanese media. It's all about this white guilt that the politically correct crowd insist all white people must feel for having the audacity to be born white.

Sure, but not with video games. I didn't say, and I don't recall anyone saying, anything about white people needing to feel guilty. They don't. And besides, not everything is made up of white men.

[Divine Justinia V]

This is the HEIGHT of laziness.

 

>person says something completely wrong

>asks what are you talking about in disbelief

>is called lazy

 

ok lol

[TCBC_Freak]

"Americans hiring Americans?" So an Asian American or other poc don't count as American?

 

 

Really man? At 3 o'clock in the morning you're going to nit-pick me for three words out of three paragraphs? I was talking in general terms. Context dude, I should have said white hires white, whatever, the point remains. And in fact is proven right then, you saw what I said as wrong because that was what you were looking for, the very paragraph you pulled from is about finding what you want not what was there.