378 réponses à ce sujet

[Mes]

My jaw kinda clenches every time someone says "they can't do such-and-such because they have to appeal to what they think the largest market is."

 

Let's say, for example, that black people make up 20% of the gaming community. I am completely pulling this out of my a$$ and am only using it to demonstrate a point. First off, 20% is a HUGE CHUNK of people with cash to spend. Secondly, if you market better toward black people, guess what - that percentage of gamers will increase.

 

Marketing toward a wider demographic has got to be a good thing.

[Mes]

 

Where does it end? Dozens of trailers, each showing a different combination of race, gender and sexual orientation(except straight white male, obviously)? It's beyond obnoxious. It's marketing, not oppression. It's not BioWare's marketing department's job to promote women, trans people, every minority, and every sexual orientation. For crap's sake, BioWare is already more inclusive than pretty much any developer. Give them a freaking break. Marketing is just marketing. It doesn't impact the way you play the game at all.

 

Sooooo many people have suggested an easy solution to this - show us a character creator trailer. Boom. Done.

 

Anyway "where does it end" is not really a good argument to make against being more inclusive. Are you implying that it should just stop at straight white dudes?

[tara]

My jaw kinda clenches every time someone says "they can't do such-and-such because they have to appeal to what they think the largest market is."

 

Let's say, for example, that black people make up 20% of the gaming community. I am completely pulling this out of my a$$ and am only using it to demonstrate a point. First off, 20% is a HUGE CHUNK of people with cash to spend. Secondly, if you market better toward black people, guess what - that percentage of gamers will increase.

 

Marketing toward a wider demographic has got to be a good thing.

 

True that. Like, say one million people buy your game. Not a bad number, right?

 

20% of a million is 200,000 people. Frankly, I find it terrifying when people say "its a minority so it doesn't matter" because that's actually a huge amount of people they are literally saying don't matter enough to be considered.

[Mes]

True that. Like, say one million people buy your game. Not a bad number, right?

 

20% of a million is 200,000 people. Frankly, I find it terrifying when people say "its a minority so it doesn't matter" because that's actually a huge amount of people they are literally saying don't matter enough to be considered.

 

Precisely. I would have used the actual fact of 40% of gamers being women, buuuut that gets ignored/shot down/belittled so easily around here, I didn't want to risk it.

 

Anyway to reiterate, just because some group is a "minority" within the gaming community, doesn't mean that they don't matter money-wise, and doesn't mean that they don't have the potential to become the majority or at least increase in numbers substantially.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

My jaw kinda clenches every time someone says "they can't do such-and-such because they have to appeal to what they think the largest market is."

 

Let's say, for example, that black people make up 20% of the gaming community. I am completely pulling this out of my a$$ and am only using it to demonstrate a point. First off, 20% is a HUGE CHUNK of people with cash to spend. Secondly, if you market better toward black people, guess what - that percentage of gamers will increase.

 

Marketing toward a wider demographic has got to be a good thing.

I agree. The problem lies with the fact that marketing has a limited budget. Thus they have to employ a "How can we appeal to the most people with the money we have". The safest option has been, in video games at least, going with the white straight male demographic because they are the majority of gamers. 

[Steppenwolf]

Let's say, for example, that black people make up 20% of the gaming community. I am completely pulling this out of my a$$ and am only using it to demonstrate a point. First off, 20% is a HUGE CHUNK of people with cash to spend. Secondly, if you market better toward black people, guess what - that percentage of gamers will increase.

That's not really how marketing works. Products are marketed in specific ways to specific groups. Let's say the next Tyler Perry movie about a black family used mostly white people in the trailers. Would that make a bunch more white want to see a movie, just because they saw some white faces on the screen? Of course not, because those movies are for a specific audience. Dragon Age isn't for a specific audience except people who like to play medieval RPGs. Showing a black lesbian making out with a Hispanic lesbian isn't going to magically to bring in the ethnic lesbian demographic. People who don't know what DA is aren't going to see a trailer and say "Wow, I must get this game because a person of my gender and skin color was swinging a sword around." That's silly.

Sooooo many people have suggested an easy solution to this - show us a character creator trailer. Boom. Done.

And the BSN and Tumblr would just complain that the actual marketing doesn't feature a black trans man tongue-kissing a Hispanic man.
 

Anyway "where does it end" is not really a good argument to make against being more inclusive. Are you implying that it should just stop at straight white dudes?

I'm implying that BioWare's marketing is not your tool for social justice or whatever else. But what a lot of you guys are implying is that white men should be embargoed from marketing. That's not inclusive. It's hypocritical.

[tmp7704]

What would this ad look like to people who aren't us? How would the average viewer know that those random people are all the PC?

For trailers at least it could open with a quick flip through the character creator, like a few seconds to go through various looks until it settles for appearance then goes into the trailer itself, featuring that particular character. Make it a different character in each.

Generally it's presumed the person that the camera focuses on is the PC anyway, and whatever actual looks they have is pretty secondary to the viewer, especially in RPGs.

[oceanicsurvivor]

I agree. The problem lies with the fact that marketing has a limited budget. Thus they have to employ a "How can we appeal to the most people with the money we have". The safest option has been, in video games at least, going with the white straight male demographic because they are the majority of gamers. 

 

It's in more than video games sadly. White and male is the default, as in all people can come see this movie/play the game/enjoy this product; it is weirdly coded in marketing as 'universal'. If women are overly advertised in movies its a 'chick flick', and similar stigmas apply to other groups as well. This is a problem with marketing and with how we have been trained, as consumers, to interpret the marketing material presented to us.

 

That's not really how marketing works. Products are marketed in specific ways to specific groups. Let's say the next Tyler Perry movie about a black family used mostly white people in the trailers. Would that make a bunch more white want to see a movie, just because they saw some white faces on the screen? Of course not, because those movies are for a specific audience. Dragon Age isn't for a specific audience except people who like to play medieval RPGs. Showing a black lesbian making out with a Hispanic lesbian isn't going to magically to bring in the ethnic lesbian demographic. People who don't know what DA is aren't going to see a trailer and say "Wow, I must get this game because a person of my gender and skin color was swinging a sword around." That's silly.

And the BSN and Tumblr would just complain that the actual marketing doesn't feature a black trans man tongue-kissing a Hispanic man.
 
I'm implying that BioWare's marketing is not your tool for social justice or whatever else. But what a lot of you guys are implying is that white men should be embargoed from marketing. That's not inclusive. It's hypocritical.

 

That might actually. Unlike the market for white male gamers, the market targeting lesbians and bisexual women of color is extraordinarily small. So something like that would actually get some press attention/garner some interest actually.

 

And no one is saying that white men should be or even could be barred from the marketing of this product. Including other people in marketing isn't automatically saying 'quick hide the white dude!' its simply asking 'hey stop hiding ...everyone else.'

[tara]

And the BSN and Tumblr would just complain that the actual marketing doesn't feature a black trans man tongue-kissing a Hispanic man.

 

You make it sound as if the possibility of a black trans man in a relationship with hispanic man is something that doesn't happen. I know you're trying to conjure up this oh-so-impossible situation as a way to make your argument look stronger, but it's weak, man.

[tmp7704]

People who don't know what DA is aren't going to see a trailer and say "Wow, I must get this game because a person of my gender and skin color was swinging a sword around." That's silly.

And yet funnily enough there's people who said they bought themselves a copy of ME after learning that their character could be a woman waving around a gun and being heroic, instead of a white, short haired dude. You can tell yourself it's silly all you want, but it doesn't change fact it happens.

[Mes]

That's not really how marketing works. Products are marketed in specific ways to specific groups. Let's say the next Tyler Perry movie about a black family used mostly white people in the trailers. Would that make a bunch more white want to see a movie, just because they saw some white faces on the screen? Of course not, because those movies are for a specific audience. Dragon Age isn't for a specific audience except people who like to play medieval RPGs. Showing a black lesbian making out with a Hispanic lesbian isn't going to magically to bring in the ethnic lesbian demographic. People who don't know what DA is aren't going to see a trailer and say "Wow, I must get this game because a person of my gender and skin color was swinging a sword around." That's silly.


I'm implying that BioWare's marketing is not your tool for social justice or whatever else. But what a lot of you guys are implying is that white men should be embargoed from marketing. That's not inclusive. It's hypocritical.

 

Hmm. I disagree. I honestly think a hispanic gay person who sees a hispanic gay person in a game trailer would suddenly have a little bit more interest in the product than he/she would have otherwise.

 

In any case there have been so many dude beardy whities in these game trailers that they are all sort of merging into one and becoming less and less distinguishable from one another. For an amazing franchise like Dragon Age, that seems to be a crying shame. I think breaking out of the mold a little bit by showing other genders/skin colors/etc in their trailers would help set themselves apart and again generate even more interest than they've been currently getting. Just by virtue of being a little bit unique amongst the sea of other games.

 

And NO ONE is saying white men should be "embargoed," goodness. It's about being more inclusive all around.

[daveliam]

 

Showing a black lesbian making out with a Hispanic lesbian isn't going to magically to bring in the ethnic lesbian demographic. People who don't know what DA is aren't going to see a trailer and say "Wow, I must get this game because a person of my gender and skin color was swinging a sword around." That's silly.
 

 

I have absolutely and without a doubt bought games that are not normally my "type" of game if I knew that there was gay content in them.  So it kind of does work exactly like that in many cases.

 

I haven't always liked those games, but it helps expand my experiences as a gamer and I'm always happy to provide money to a developer who includes my "demographic".  That's exactly how marketing should work.

[Mes]

I have absolutely and without a doubt bought games that are not normally my "type" of game if I knew that there was gay content in them.  So it kind of does work exactly like that in many cases.

 

I haven't always liked those games, but it helps expand my experiences as a gamer and I'm always happy to provide money to a developer who includes my "demographic".  That's exactly how marketing should work.

 

Yep.

 

I think that almost everyone who is opposed to more inclusive marketing, or who doesn't understand the desire for it or the effect it can have, are... straight white males. And that's not their fault, per se. It's just that this group has ALWAYS been marketed to, they are the "default" for nearly everything... And they might have trouble imagining a world where the opposite is the case. I don't know.

[oceanicsurvivor]

I have absolutely and without a doubt bought games that are not normally my "type" of game if I knew that there was gay content in them.  So it kind of does work exactly like that in many cases.

 

I haven't always liked those games, but it helps expand my experiences as a gamer and I'm always happy to provide money to a developer who includes my "demographic".  That's exactly how marketing should work.

Exactly, you think I wanted to watch The L Word.

 

To use another example: When it was revealed that a superhero woman on Arrow (TV show) had previously had a relationship with another highly trained ninja assassin girl, I saw stuff about that on LGBT sites that normally don't touch superhero stuff with a ten foot pole. Why don't they touch it with a ten foot pole you ask? Because normally none of that content appeals to or is relevant to them. But there Arrow was, getting free publicity with a potentially new audience just because they were more inclusive.

[Nocte ad Mortem]

The whole reason I started playing Bioware games was that a friend told me they had gay content, so there goes that theory. lol

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Well the question still would be whether changing the marketing to another default Inquisitor demographic would bring in more or less players in overall total, because there probably would be a trade off to marketing to a smaller but mostly untapped group.

 

Personally, I've always preferred Bioware emphasize the customization options of their PCs a little more, because I'm almost never attached to their default marketing face.

[Mes]

Well the question still would be whether changing the marketing to another default Inquisitor demographic would bring in more or less players in overall total, because there probably would be a trade off to marketing to a smaller but mostly untapped group.

 

Personally, I've always preferred Bioware emphasize the customization options of their PCs a little more, because I'm almost never attached to their default marketing face.

 

It's not about changing from one default to another. It's about being more inclusive. So for instance instead of removing all white dudebros from everything ever, people are suggesting mixing it up with some variety. Via CC trailer, for example!

[efd731]

I respond to all of you with an overwhelming "MEH". If bioware switches up the trailers to have every combo under the sun shown, then go for it. But none of this kissing/romancing crap in the trailers. I don't want to see ads for a medieval dating sim, I want to see the protagonists kicking ass, taking names, and looking good while doing so.

[Battlebloodmage]

I feel like NO other race is being treated as bad as Asian by the media. Asian females are overly sexualized while Asian males are emasculated and undesirable. Adaptation often have yellowface and change characters from Asian to white. Despite how much hate Kai Leng received, he's my second favorite character because he's not being stereotype as some kinds of nerdy virgin. 

[tara]

I feel like NO other race is being treated as bad as Asian by the media. Asian females are overly sexualized while Asian males are emasculated and undesirable. Adaptation often have yellowface and change characters from Asian to white. Despite how much hate Kai Leng received, he's my second favorite character because he's not being stereotype as some kinds of nerdy virgin. 

 

I agree that Asians do get it bad, but I don't think the way of bringing it to people's attention is by saying we're the worst off. The last thing I want is for minorities and oppressed groups fighting each other and taking part of something like an "oppression olympics," trying to one up each other with "I have it the worst!" "No, I'M the one who has it the worst!"

[SwobyJ]

I feel like NO other race is being treated as bad as Asian by the media. Asian females are overly sexualized while Asian males are emasculated and undesirable. Adaptation often have yellowface and change characters from Asian to white. Despite how much hate Kai Leng received, he's my second favorite character because he's not being stereotype as some kinds of nerdy virgin. 

 

No he's just space ninja.

 

I'm more for Emily Wong. I know she's just a secondary character but something made me like her since ME1 and not seeing her in ME3 actually upset me a little.

[Spirit Keeper]

The gay content isn't worth watching for.  It's minimal.  Right now, there is one gay guy and two bisexual guys (one of whom is a prostitute), all of whom are supporting characters.

 

That being said, it's totally worth watching for many other reasons.

When you said the prostitute is bi, do you mean Olyvar? Because the character (in the show at least) is gay. But yes, the content is lacking. Loras has been changed to be gay and dumb! Yaaaaaay.

[The Hierophant]

Samanosuke Akechi >>>>>>>>>> Kai Leng

[Deflagratio]

I can't help but feel like this thread is just Ragebait, political correctness is after all, a race to the bottom.

[AlanC9]

For trailers at least it could open with a quick flip through the character creator, like a few seconds to go through various looks until it settles for appearance then goes into the trailer itself, featuring that particular character. Make it a different character in each.

Generally it's presumed the person that the camera focuses on is the PC anyway, and whatever actual looks they have is pretty secondary to the viewer, especially in RPGs.

 

That wouldn't work well for the cinematic trailers Bio's been making  for the last decade or so. It'd stop them in their tracks.

 

Which isn't necessarily a problem. Bio doesn't have to do trailers that way in the first place.