265 réponses à ce sujet

[Han Shot First]

Disagree, howe's is the one with direct blood on his hands(coupled father cousland for being a fool). I've done a noble run where the warden has mentally amalgamated the 2 betrayals(cousland and ostagar) and killed them both but I've equally done and preferred the one where Howe died, noble married Anora and her father joined wardens.

 

Howe is definitely the character most directly responsible for the murder of the Couslands, but I don't think Loghain is blameless.

 

After all Howe couldn't have expected to get away with his treason unless he knew beforehand that the king was going to be betrayed and murdered, and that Loghain could keep him shielded from justice. Howe's attack on the Couslands would not have made sense unless he was privy to Loghain's plans, because King Cailan would have just dispatched troops to retake Highever and hang Howe.

 

Also the Couslands were the most powerful noble family in Thedas after the royal family, and one that was closely aligned with the monarchy. Had they not been eliminated by Howe it is likely that following Ostagar Bryce Cousland (or his heir, if Bryce were killed in battle) would have denounced Loghain at the Landsmeet and rallied support against him. They would be a dangerous rival and it is awfully convenient that they end up eliminated just prior to Loghain's treason. For that reason I'm not quite so sure that I buy Loghain's claim that he was uninvolved in Howe's attack on the Couslands.

 

In either case, Loghain certainly provides protection for Arl Howe after the fact and even rewards him for it. Even if he wasn't directly involved in the plot against the Couslands he was an accessory in their murder.  

[Augustei]

Howe is definitely the character most directly responsible for the murder of the Couslands, but I don't think Loghain is blameless.

 

After all Howe couldn't have expected to get away with his treason unless he knew beforehand that the king was going to be betrayed and murdered, and that Loghain could keep him shielded from justice. Howe's attack on the Couslands would not have made sense unless he was privy to Loghain's plans, because King Cailan would have just dispatched troops to retake Highever and hang Howe.

 

Also the Couslands were the most powerful noble family in Thedas after the royal family, and one that was closely aligned with the monarchy. Had they not been eliminated by Howe it is likely that following Ostagar Bryce Cousland (or his heir, if Bryce were killed in battle) would have denounced Loghain at the Landsmeet and rallied support against him. They would be a dangerous rival and it is awfully convenient that they end up eliminated just prior to Loghain's treason. For that reason I'm not quite so sure that I buy Loghain's claim that he was uninvolved in Howe's attack on the Couslands.

 

In either case, Loghain certainly provides protection for Arl Howe after the fact and even rewards him for it. Even if he wasn't directly involved in the plot against the Couslands he was an accessory in their murder.  

Loghain didn't know of Howes plans, David Gaider said as much so that pretty much settles that.

Howe didn't need Loghains protection anyway, He had control of Highever, Amaranthine and Denerim by the time the army returned from Ostagar.. Anyone wanting to fight him when he has that much power and control over the north would have to be suicidal with the blight on their tails. Loghain didn't really "provide protection" He couldn't exactly oppose Howe while he was that powerful while simultaneously fighting the bannorn and darkspawn.

[Warden Inquisitor]

Neither. My Warden became King by marrying Anora. I spared Alistair's life. 

[DashRashh]

Neither. My Warden became King by marrying Anora. I spared Alistair's life. 

You should have killed Loghain and Alistair should have stayed in the Grey Wardens...

[wright1978]

You should have killed Loghain and Alistair should have stayed in the Grey Wardens...

Because killing your wife's father is a great way to start a marriage.

[DashRashh]

Because killing your wife's father is a great way to start a marriage.

Yeah thanks to Loghain king Cailan and Duncan died and alot more so yes he deserves to die no matter what..!

[Han Shot First]

Loghain didn't know of Howes plans, David Gaider said as much so that pretty much settles that.

Howe didn't need Loghains protection anyway, He had control of Highever, Amaranthine and Denerim by the time the army returned from Ostagar.. Anyone wanting to fight him when he has that much power and control over the north would have to be suicidal with the blight on their tails. Loghain didn't really "provide protection" He couldn't exactly oppose Howe while he was that powerful while simultaneously fighting the bannorn and darkspawn.

 

Fair enough, if devs have stated that Loghain did not plan the attack on the Couslands than that isn't up for debate. Its canon that Howe planned it in its entirety.

 

But I disagree with your assertion that Loghain didn't provide protection. Howe couldn't have carried out the attack on the Couslands without protection from the head of state. He was guilty of betraying his liege lord and of murder, both of which would be capital offenses under normal circumstances. Obviously that protection from justice could never have been expected if Cailan was king, which means that Howe had to be privy to Loghain's plot against the king. Howe's actions would not make a lick of sense unless he had knowledge of what was going to happen at Ostagar. Furthermore Howe is neither the lord of Highever or the lord of Denerim, both of those titles had to be conferred on him by the head of state...in this case either by Loghain, or through Anora, who was functioning as Loghain's puppet. Loghain sanctions Howe's actions after the fact both by confirming Howe's lordship over Highever and by awarding him Denerim.

 

In light of that I don't see how he can be viewed as anything other than an accessory in the murder of the Couslands. Howe does not end up stripped of titles and declared an outlaw, he is confirmed in his lordship over the city he seized by treason and murder, and he is awarded the arling of Denerim. 

 

In short, for a human noble Cousland I think the most sensible end for Loghain is his head being seperated from his neck.

[In Exile]

Loghain didn't know of Howes plans, David Gaider said as much so that pretty much settles that.

Howe didn't need Loghains protection anyway, He had control of Highever, Amaranthine and Denerim by the time the army returned from Ostagar.. Anyone wanting to fight him when he has that much power and control over the north would have to be suicidal with the blight on their tails. Loghain didn't really "provide protection" He couldn't exactly oppose Howe while he was that powerful while simultaneously fighting the bannorn and darkspawn.

 

There was no army in Highever, this is why he could sack it. His control of Amaranthine is a bit bizarre - he'd have to have convinced every lord there to be onboard with his treason for it to be ironclad, and had no ambitious vassal who would have sold him out to replace him. He didn't sack Denerim, so again, Denerim would be defenceless. 

 

Loghain is an idiot because if he wanted to secure his position, blaming Howe for Cailan's death - when he just murdered a beloved Teyrn and clearly proved he was a traitor - would have gotten the rest of the bannorn on his side. 

[Augustei]

Fair enough, if devs have stated that Loghain did not plan the attack on the Couslands than that isn't up for debate. Its canon that Howe planned it in its entirety.

 

But I disagree with your assertion that Loghain didn't provide protection. Howe couldn't have carried out the attack on the Couslands without protection from the head of state. He was guilty of betraying his liege lord and of murder, both of which would be capital offenses under normal circumstances. Obviously that protection from justice could never have been expected if Cailan was king, which means that Howe had to be privy to Loghain's plot against the king. Howe's actions would not make a lick of sense unless he had knowledge of what was going to happen at Ostagar. Furthermore Howe is neither the lord of Highever or the lord of Denerim, both of those titles had to be conferred on him by the head of state...in this case either by Loghain, or through Anora, who was functioning as Loghain's puppet. Loghain sanctions Howe's actions after the fact both by confirming Howe's lordship over Highever and by awarding him Denerim.

 

In light of that I don't see how he can be viewed as anything other than an accessory in the murder of the Couslands. Howe does not end up stripped of titles and declared an outlaw, he is confirmed in his lordship over the city he seized by treason and murder, and he is awarded the arling of Denerim. 

 

In short, for a human noble Cousland I think the most sensible end for Loghain is his head being seperated from his neck.

Once again answered by David Gaider: Loghain didn't intend on quitting the field and "Betraying" Cailan until the moment the signal was lit at Ishal, so that means Howe wasn't privy to Loghains plans either.. Howe didn't need any assurences anyway, Whether his control of Denerim and Highever was legal or not was relevent..He millitarily controlled them and to be relieved of them A millitary campaign would have to be waged against him which would have been foolish for Loghain to do since he was already fighting the darkspawn and bannorn.

[Augustei]

Yeah thanks to Loghain king Cailan and Duncan died and alot more so yes he deserves to die no matter what..!

Thanks to the Darkspawn army more like, which was far more numerous than anyone anticipated.. Cailan insisted he and Duncan be on the front lines and the line was broken before we even crossed the bridge to Ishal so they'd almost certainly be dead whether Loghain charged or not anyway.. So its The Darkspawn and Cailans fault, not Loghains. If he charged all that would resulted in is the complete destruction of the entire Ferelden army..Instead he decided to save a part of it.

Anyway if Loghain is indeed responsible which he isn't but if he were then Thanks indeed for ridding Ferelden of the biggest moron ever to sit the Ferelden throne (Cailan)

[Chewin]

All three of the outcomes? Still mostly looking forward to King Alistair, and whether he has changed at all or not.

[DashRashh]

All three of the outcomes? Still mostly looking forward to King Alistair, and whether he has changed at all or not.

I have 2 gameplay one king one grey warden

[Chewin]

I have 2 gameplay one king one grey warden

Same, though with one of them him being dead. For certain reasons...

[In Exile]

Thanks to the Darkspawn army more like, which was far more numerous than anyone anticipated.. Cailan insisted he and Duncan be on the front lines and the line was broken before we even crossed the bridge to Ishal so they'd almost certainly be dead whether Loghain charged or not anyway.. So its The Darkspawn and Cailans fault, not Loghains. If he charged all that would resulted in is the complete destruction of the entire Ferelden army..Instead he decided to save a part of it.

Anyway if Loghain is indeed responsible which he isn't but if he were then Thanks indeed for ridding Ferelden of the biggest moron ever to sit the Ferelden throne (Cailan)

 

Duncan's death is partly his fault. He refused to share super-critical intel (GWs can psychically tell there is a blight, only GWs can kill the archdemon). He went along with plans that clearly would doom Ferelden (all GWs in the Vanguard at the base of the tower, making it impossible to kill the flying archdemon). 

 

Loghain's plan was epic-level moronic, but Duncan was gripping the idiot ball just as tightly. 

[Han Shot First]

Once again answered by David Gaider: Loghain didn't intend on quitting the field and "Betraying" Cailan until the moment the signal was lit at Ishal, so that means Howe wasn't privy to Loghains plans either.. Howe didn't need any assurences anyway, Whether his control of Denerim and Highever was legal or not was relevent..He millitarily controlled them and to be relieved of them A millitary campaign would have to be waged against him which would have been foolish for Loghain to do since he was already fighting the darkspawn and bannorn.

 

If that is what Gaider actually said, then he didn't think it through very well. Because Howe's actions do not make any sense unless the murder of King Cailan was pre-planned and he was privy to the plot.

 

Without Ostagar and power shifting to Loghain, Howe could have expected no royal sanction of his murder of the Couslands and the seizing of Highever. The only way there can be a payoff for Howe is if Cailan is eliminated and replaced by someone who isn't going to declare him stripped of titles and an outlaw. This is what Howe could have expected if Cailan is still king:

 

 

Also, Howe had no control over Denerim until awarded the arling by Loghain. Denerim was ruled by the Kendels until the one-two punch of a battle death at Ostagar (or assassination, depending on which story is true) and the heir being thought dead, made the lordship over that arling vacant. Howe wasn't Loghain's only supporter amongst the nobility, he is just the only one that plays a prominent role in the story. Loghain could have awarded Denerim to any other of those nobles.

[In Exile]

 

If that is what Gaider actually said, then he didn't think it through very well. Because Howe's actions do not make any sense unless the murder of King Cailan was pre-planned and he was privy to the plot.

 

Without Ostagar and power shifting to Loghain, Howe could have expected no royal sanction of his murder of the Couslands and the seizing of Highever. The only way there can be a payoff for Howe is if Cailan is eliminated and replaced by someone who isn't going to declare him stripped of titles and an outlaw. This is what Howe could have expected if Cailan is still king:

 

 

Also, Howe had no control over Denerim until awarded the arling by Loghain. Denerim was ruled by the Kendels until the one-two punch of a battle death at Ostagar (or assassination, depending on which story is true) and the heir being thought dead, made the lordship over that arling vacant. Howe wasn't Loghain's only supporter amongst the nobility, he is just the only one that plays a prominent role in the story. Loghain could have awarded Denerim to any other of those nobles.

 

Not to mention the insanity of the entire Arling of Amaranthine being on-board with his treason and willing to fight a civil war with the Crown, which would have the combined might of all of Ferelden behind it. Arl Eamon's forces wouldn't even participate in the assault on the darkspawn. The entire military might of the Couslands was gone, and also part of the assault on the darkspawn. Howe is with Loghain - he sees the darkspawn as a major raid - so the assumption has to be that the Crown army wins without substantial casualties; and even if the army sustains significant losses, their numbers will be replenished by Arl Eamon. 

 

Even if Howe somehow controlled both Denerim and Amaranthine, he'd be grossly and comically outnumbered by the rest of the Crown. 

[Han Shot First]

Not to mention the insanity of the entire Arling of Amaranthine being on-board with his treason and willing to fight a civil war with the Crown, which would have the combined might of all of Ferelden behind it. 

 

Exactly.

 

Howe also has to keep his own bannermen in line, and that isn't going to happen without Cailan dead and Loghain ruling. If the king strips him of titles and declares him an outlaw it presents both danger and opportunity for each and every one of those banns who owe Howe their allegiance. The danger of course would be in supporting Howe against the crown, a battle they would be certain to lose. They'd be risking life, title, and lands for no potential gain. Any army the king could raise would surely dwarf that of Howe. I can't imagine that many, if any banns at all, would stay with Howe in that scenario. The opportunity would be raising the royal banner and going on the offensive against their former Arl. If one of those banns were to play a vital role in Howe's capture or death, they potentially are raised to Arl and granted Amaranthine.

 

Howe's plan would reek of suicidal stupidity *unless* he knows King Cailan is about to be eliminated, that Loghain is going to declare himself regent, and that Loghain will not only take no action against him but confirm him as lord of Highever.

[BloodyTalon]

It will depend on my import, currently doing  a lot of play throughs...lost all my saves.

In my first playthrough he should be a grey warden since my noble married the queen.

[In Exile]

Exactly.

 

Howe also has to keep his own bannermen in line, and that isn't going to happen without Cailan dead and Loghain ruling. If the king strips him of titles and declares him an outlaw it presents both danger and opportunity for each and every one of those banns who owe Howe their allegiance. The danger of course would be in supporting Howe against the crown, a battle they would be certain to lose. They'd be risking life, title, and lands for no potential gain. Any army the king could raise would surely dwarf that of Howe. I can't imagine that many, if any banns at all, would stay with Howe in that scenario. The opportunity would be raising the royal banner and going on the offensive against their former Arl. If one of those banns were to play a vital role in Howe's capture or death, they potentially are raised to Arl and granted Amaranthine.

 

Howe's plan would reek of suicidal stupidity *unless* he knows King Cailan is about to be eliminated, that Loghain is going to declare himself regent, and that Loghain will not only take no action against him but confirm him as lord of Highever.

 

Absolutely agree with you. The same applies to Loghain himself - his purported treason against Cailan is far more likely to succeed with his most powerful supporters dead, i.e., Arl Eamon and Teyrn Cousland. In fact, the timeline with Eamon gets quite strange without the plot by Loghain being in effect while the Warden is travelling to Ostagar (seeing that Jowan only leaves at the same time as the Warden and has already poisoned Eamon and given enough time for his knights to go off across the land before the Warden leaves the Wilds). 

[Ibn_Shisha]

In short, for a human noble Cousland I think the most sensible end for Loghain is his head being seperated from his neck.

I've always followed this MO as well, however, one thing did occur to me:

 

IIRC, if Loghain survives both Landsmeet and Battle of Denerim, at the beginning of Awakening he gets transferred by the Wardens to Orlais.

 

Loghain.  In Orlais.

 

That seems incredibly ironic and poetic justice, no?

[kalasaurus]

Grey Warden on my first playthrough, at least.

[The Night Haunter]

I made him king more often than not. Often with Anora, sometimes by himself, once with Warden. I actually never made Anora queen while not sparing Loghain, so I never made a playthrough with him as a Grey Warden.

[TeamLexana]

King for sure, he's King in most of playthroughs and if he's not king, it's because he's dead... hehe. Hopefully the Keep will give the option to choose the preference and I really hope I can get him to be all "I gotta find The Queen!" since my fav playthrough was always the female Cousland Origin and I'd romance the hell out of the guy!

[Mr_Steph]

He will be king in my first playthrough. My Dalish elf thought it would be good for her people to have him on the crown compared to the queen.