107 réponses à ce sujet

[Arkalezth]

if you like giving yourself a hard time stick it on mega hard core mode and never rest properly until you find a bed with fluffy pillows in a quiet part of town

 

There's a huge gap between that and stopping to rest in the middle of an orc army's lair. Extreme restrictions are as stupid as no restrictions at all. I have no issue with unrestricted resting (players can restrict it themselves), but I think some forms of restrictions (and well-done ones) can help immersion. That's just my opinion and I don't expect it to be the same as everyone's. I can't speak about this module in particular because I haven't played it yet.

 

I'm not going to discuss about cleric mechanics here, as that's off-topic, but let's just say that I disagree with some of olnorton's points.

[-Semper-]

It just means people who like playing magic users won't play your mod, or will play it as a fighter, who with any regenerating item can go through a whole campaign without resting.
Low level wizards & sorcerers are without a doubt the weakest classes in any DnD game. No armour, low HP, no BAB.
From a role playing point of view, the idea that a wizard has to rest overnight the remember spells he relies on every day of his adventuring life is ridiculous.
Your taking from magic users & giving them nothing to compensate for it.

 

that's why you are controlling a party. a wizard can always grab a sling or crossbow and participate in a fight. a better solution would be to add unlimited cantrips, which at least give the feeling of being a magician wielder without being too overpowered. by the rules resting is a strategically important gameplay decision rooted deep in the lore and the mechanics - without limitation wizards mutate to spell slinging mass murderers. those spells should be chosen wisely. they should fit your style of play and be the last resort to flip a fight. in my book it's better to get rid of all the useless trash mobs and filler fights and replace them with interesting and diverse encounters, reflected by the lore and level design of your mod. this way the player is able to choose appropriate spells without meta knowledge. it would make a far more interesting and involving gameplay than simply pushing a button. unlimited access to god mode is a destructive game design, similar to permanent instant gratification.

[kevL]

but, but i like the pretty colors ......

seriously tho, sometimes I just wanna waste off a Magic Missile or FB for the glamor and/or little adrenaline rush. Give the dead weight at the back of the party some use other than Identify. ( not the best way to put it ..)


the pt. is: Casters cast

[-Semper-]

that's why 4ed and pathfinder invented "at will" spells or cantrips. those are unlimited lvl 0 spells giving your caster something to cast. else there is always the ability to scribe scrolls or to craft wands/staves or to imbue other weapons with magic enchantments.

 

btw i've never played in a group where resting was allowed after every encounter. you can sleep once a day or after really tiresome activities. within a dungeon you've to secure the rooms and barren the doors to get some sleep. and if there are ghosts around... well, sleeping ain't that good of an option

 

 

seriously tho, sometimes I just wanna waste off a Magic Missile or FB for the glamor and/or little adrenaline rush.

 

nothing stops you from doing that, but you've to live with the consequences. an rpg is all about c&c, and the game should reflect as much as possible of your choices.

[Arkalezth]

the pt. is: Casters cast

 

And fighters fight. There are more spells besides damage ones. A well placed Sleep, Grease or Blindness (all low level spells) can turn an otherwise hard fight into a walk in the park, but the wizard doesn't have to deal the killing blow (missile, whatever) himself. Sure, unlimited cantrips would add some flavour, but those aren't more damaging than a crossbow shot, so no difference power-wise in the end. Alternatively, you can focus on buffs and be pretty much unkillable in melee.

 

Now, if the game throws 100 enemies at you at once, then yes, wizards may have a problem (so may the rest of the classes), but that's just bad design.

[Nemo_Studio]

  My my. It seems that resting is a bit of a touchy matter!

 

I sort of designed this mod to be challenging and as a somebody who is used to play with Magic using classes (Since BG1) and who is used to exploit the hell out of them, I find that yes, they need to be a little gimped or they become walking engine of apocalypse, which can be fun and legit, but that's not the intent with this mod. My solution to this is to have a small cost for spell regeneration (A night in a proper bed followed with a proper breakfast in this case.). I feel it put more weight on each spells, you can't throw them like nothing. 

 

Although, what I think I'm going to do is that I'll make it possible that you can spend a "meat" (Which you can find on slain beasts) when talking to Lizz in the jungle to get a full rest. Although, I think that you can easily sell these for 7 gp, so that might be a waste since you can sleep at the in for 1 gp, 3gp or 5gp.

 

That being said, there's a command in the cheat console which you can find in Lizz's conversation that allows you to rest if you find that not being able to rest whenever you want to be detrimental to your experience. It's also faster than the OC where you have to wait 5 seconds. Also, there's several camp sprinkled in the game where you can heal your hp (But they will not refresh your spells.)

 

The lore reasoning behind that is that spell casting is mentally exhausting in Verssavis and you need a good night rest and a nice meal to be able to cast spells again.

 

I'm releasing a newer version of my mod out in which I implemented the warping dialogue menu in Lizz's conversation. With this you can travel instantly anywhere in town and right outside of it. You need to not be in a dungeon or in a fight though and this feature is disabled in certain situations (When it would allow you to break the game). I'm sorry, I should have thought about it before. 

 

I'm sorry if I offended any magic users, it because I love'em that I'm so hard on them.

[Nemo_Studio]

I can never understand why anybody would ever make a game deliberately "challenging" ( means damn right hard ) without having options for those that are struggling, don't want to reload areas countless times to do things perfectly, or to be challenged. Nobody forces anybody to press the rest button but if you turn it off then you are forcing them to do something else and they might not like doing things that way and therefore wont like that game. Personally I change all death systems back to the respawn, reload or quit option and if warned about resting restrictions will change areas too. But I know how to do it very quickly without wrecking the modules and others don't.

 

We all make games and know what to expect around the next corner and what spells work when and where but the player does not and should be taken into consideration. They might not want to replay a module or area to get it right they could be like me.. Simply wanting to be entertained, looking for a good story and a bit of fun.

 

This is why I added a cheat console in my game. You can give yourself as much XP and GP s you need to enjoy my mod.

[rjshae]

Sleep should entail some amount of risk to the party. Yet what random rest encounters usually seem to do is encourage save spamming. (I'm guilty of this.) Instead, for realism, I like to see sleep actions change the disposition of the enemy. For example, a sleep can trigger a difficult encounter along an escape  path. Enemy patrols should return from their runs, causing inconveniences to the party. Previously unlocked access tunnels become locked and even jammed, barricades established across formerly cleared tunnels, and so forth. If an alarm was previously rung, the enemy should disrupt any sleep attempts. It takes a little planning, but I believe these types of additions can add depth and challenge.

[Nemo_Studio]

Sleep should entail some amount of risk to the party. Yet what random rest encounters usually seem to do is encourage save spamming. (I'm guilty of this.) Instead, for realism, I like to see sleep actions change the disposition of the enemy. For example, a sleep can trigger a difficult encounter along an escape  path. Enemy patrols should return from their runs, causing inconveniences to the party. Previously unlocked access tunnels become locked and even jammed, barricades established across formerly cleared tunnels, and so forth. If an alarm was previously rung, the enemy should disrupt any sleep attempts. It takes a little planning, but I believe these types of additions can add depth and challenge.

 

This is a good idea, but it seems suited for a more linear type of story.

[rjshae]

This is a good idea, but it seems suited for a more linear type of story.

 

Yes, it works best for semi-linear dungeon quests.

[Tchos]

The "meat" solution would satisfy me.  The teleporting dialogue option is a second-best option, since it would involve slow area transitions and backtracking.  I saw someone say around here some time ago that it makes sense that once an area in a dungeon is cleared out and secured, it should be safe to rest there, and certainly safer resting within a room (with sturdy walls and a single door that can be guarded) than resting out in the wilderness.

 

I won't need a console for gold or XP, but resting is important.

[Nemo_Studio]

The "meat" solution would satisfy me.  The teleporting dialogue option is a second-best option, since it would involve slow area transitions and backtracking.  I saw someone say around here some time ago that it makes sense that once an area in a dungeon is cleared out and secured, it should be safe to rest there, and certainly safer resting within a room (with sturdy walls and a single door that can be guarded) than resting out in the wilderness.

 

I won't need a console for gold or XP, but resting is important.

 

Alright meat powered magic it is. I'll need a meat lover to cast that "Wish" spell  !!!

[-Semper-]

Semper.. What if you want your wizard to mutate into a spell slinging mass murderer ? Who are we as module makers to say that you cant do that in my campaign because I don't like it or agree with it and dungeons and dragons says so? [...] Nobody forces anybody to press the rest button but if you turn it off then you are forcing them to do something else and they might not like doing things that way and therefore wont like that game. [...] We all make games and know what to expect around the next corner and what spells work when and where but the player does not and should be taken into consideration.

 

i was just in the mood of posting my personal preference. every mod maker is free to do whatever he wants to do. the same goes to the players. if they don't like the mod they're free to quit or even to change it to their liking. in my opinion the rules are not only there to make it more interesting, but also to support and to create a specific setting. if the possibility of an easy and always available resting system is still existent, pressing the button instantly destroys all the atmosphere created up to that point. i can't get the feeling of a dangerous dungeon because the safe haven is just a button away. paying attention to the lore or being clever in spending my resources doesn't matter because i can refill whenever i need to. i don't have to sacrifice anything and my choices have no impact at all. if such an option is available then it will be used because the rules allow to do so. larping and self-flagellation won't help if the mod is made around that single button.

 

tl;dr: what i try to say is that the rules form the setting, and that those rules dictate if such an option is available. if there's no place for unrestricted resting then it's better to not go for the lowest denominator.

[Dann-J]

Keep in mind that 'resting' isn't necessarily the same as 'sleeping'. If you get a few hours to rest, your fighters might be able to go straight to sleep, but spellcasters need to stay up for however long it takes to memorise spells for the next day. Plus there's the time required to set camp, eat, tell spooky stories, etc, and then break camp again the next morning.

 

Also, resting for eight hours doesn't mean everyone can sleep for the entire time if you're in a wilderness setting. You'd need to sleep in shifts with at least one party member awake at all times. The smaller the party, the less sleep each member would get for the same amount of 'rest' time, since either the shifts would be longer or they'd be more frequent.

 

A more 'realistic' system (if there is any realism in memorising magic) might be to have certain levels of arcane magic regained depending on how long you've rested. You might get cantrips and level one spells back after just a couple of hours rest, but level nine spells might take much longer. I have a script that does something similar which could be adapted into such a system.

 

Divine spells are different though, since technically players are meant to be granted them when they pray at certain times of day (dawn for a cleric of Lathandar, midnight for a cleric of Shar, etc). Divine spells aren't supposed to be related to resting or sleeping at all, but I'm guessing the one-size-fits-all memorisation system was easier to implement in the game.

[Dann-J]

Sleep should entail some amount of risk to the party. Yet what random rest encounters usually seem to do is encourage save spamming. (I'm guilty of this.) Instead, for realism, I like to see sleep actions change the disposition of the enemy. For example, a sleep can trigger a difficult encounter along an escape  path. Enemy patrols should return from their runs, causing inconveniences to the party. Previously unlocked access tunnels become locked and even jammed, barricades established across formerly cleared tunnels, and so forth. If an alarm was previously rung, the enemy should disrupt any sleep attempts. It takes a little planning, but I believe these types of additions can add depth and challenge.

 

Most of all, if you retreat from a tough fight, sleep, and return, you should find your enemys' hit points and spells restored as well!

 

I'd also like to see hostile creatures follow you across area transitions if they're attacking you, provided they're not limited to a particular location for some reason (vampires wouldn't follow you up into sunlight, some creatures might be strongly territorial, etc). I've never understood why monsters are afraid of doorways for stairs.

[Tchos]

Alright meat powered magic it is. I'll need a meat lover to cast that "Wish" spell  !!!

 

I'm no meat-lover myself, but the characters I play usually eat meat.    <Wizard casts Wish>

 

In regard to the resting and spell recovery for arcane spells, there have been a few ways of interpreting the Vancian system that D&D arcane magic is based on.  One of the earlier ones was that the wizards are not memorising the spells, but that the spells are a kind of living magic that's stored in their minds, which want to get out.  Once they're let out, the magic is expended, and the wizard cannot cast it again without storing them again, like a battery.  So it wouldn't be a matter of remembering something forgotten.

 

The other, later way of expressing it is that the wizards are not memorising, but pre-casting the bulk of the spell in advance, presuming that there are rituals for each spell that are too lengthy to cast in battle.  By casting everything except the final words or gestures, they can then cast the rest of the spell quickly when needed.  In this way, the spells are said to be "prepared".  Once completed, the spells would have to be prepared again.

 

It does get frequently referred to as "memorising", and I don't know what the current official explanation is, but those two seemed like the most reasonable ones I'd heard of.

 

And as Dann said, divine spells are different.

[kamal_]

A more 'realistic' system (if there is any realism in memorising magic) might be to have certain levels of arcane magic regained depending on how long you've rested. You might get cantrips and level one spells back after just a couple of hours rest, but level nine spells might take much longer. I have a script that does something similar which could be adapted into such a system.

That's exactly how NWN1/2 do it. They compress that rest into the stock 10 seconds or so, but if you have the spell bar open you can see the lower level spells becoming available faster than the higher levels.

[Dann-J]

That's exactly how NWN1/2 do it. They compress that rest into the stock 10 seconds or so, but if you have the spell bar open you can see the lower level spells becoming available faster than the higher levels.

 

That doesn't help where scripted resting is concerned though, since ForceRest() is all-or-nothing. There is the option of storing the number of spells left uncast before resting, calling ForceRest(), then deprecating certain spells to undo some of the ForceRest(). It'd be a complicated script, but it's similar to something I already have.

 

I wonder if it's possible to interupt the rest sequence in the OC? I suspect your hit points would also only partially regenerate as well.

[Arkalezth]

I thought "100 enemies" would sound like an exaggeration... maybe I should have said 500 or 1000. It also depends on your level, party composition, etc, but in general, I prefer a few interesting enemies than a gazillion of generic goblins/kobols/skeletons/whatever. Anyway, my point is that the number (and sometimes types) of enemies should be balanced depending on the amount of spells per day available (perhaps not too few so the wizard can fireball everything, but not too many so you don't end up firing a crossbow 99% of the time).

 

Agreed with Semper. As for challenges, well, as he said, that should suit the module creator's preference, but in any case, there's always a difficulty slider. Speaking of which, Trinity has an interesting system in that regard: Aside of a few resting zones, you can only rest a few times throughout the module in Hardcore or harder, but resting is unlimited in Easy (and maybe in Normal too).

 

I didn't mention rest-breaking random encounters specifically because I include them in "resting restrictions". It's basically a matter of "you cannot rest here because it's too dangerous; find a more suitable place and/or clear the area" vs. "it's dangerous here; you can try resting, at your own risk".

 

Another thing that might be worth considering is economy. In a free resting module, a player who rests all the time will probably be rich, but one who buys and uses potions and healing kits will have significantly less money to spend on better gear or whatever.

[andysks]

 

I didn't mention rest-breaking random encounters specifically because I include them in "resting restrictions". It's basically a matter of "you cannot rest here because it's too dangerous; find a more suitable place and/or clear the area" vs. "it's dangerous here; you can try resting, at your own risk".

That's what I do. MotB system but in each dangerous area you might find a spot where you can rets safe. A camp, a room... something. I chose this because I liked when playing MotB that I had to be careful with Safiya's spells in order to go through the dungeon. In a way, it makes you think before casting.

[Arkalezth]

Yeah, just generally speaking, not directed at your module in particular. Which one is it, by the way? I've played Serene and A Fairy Tale, but it was a long time ago, so I may have forgotten if it was in one of those.