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Landsmeet - Male Human Noble: King or Consort?


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#1
Darkly Tranquil

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Over on the Dragon Age Wiki, we have been having a long and increasingly bitter argument about several points relating to the Landsmeet and the outcome for a male human noble. Link here:http://dragonage.wik...=20140508042843, if you are brave enough to read something longer than War and Peace. I make no promises about the effect on your sanity...

 

The main points in dispute are:

1. Under the laws of the Landsmeet for accession to the Throne, can the male Human Noble (the Warden) become King in his own right (in lore)? 

One side of the argument thinks that any noble could make a claim for the throne and could become King if  they could gain the support of the Landsmeet. The other side argues that because every King/Queen of Ferelden up until Cailan has been a blood decendent of Calenhad, it is in effect, a hereditary monarchy, and that only someone who can claim a connection to Calanhad can effectively become monarch.

 

2. When the Male HN marries Anora, does he become King in his own right, or does he become Anora's consort (and therefore subordinate)?

One side of the argument thinks that its possible for the HN to become King as true equal ruler with Anora, while the other argues that the HN can only ever be consort to Anora. The comments during the end cutscenes and the epilogue slides seem to conflict, with some references calling him Prince-Consort and others calling him King. There are also several passing references to the King "ruling Ferelden" in DA2.

 

In an ideal world, if Mr. Gaider could give us an answer, that would be awesome, but I welcome the input of the good folks of the forum on this matter.


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#2
theskymoves

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*reconsiders wading into these muddy muddy waters*

Modifié par theskymoves, 08 mai 2014 - 07:48 .


#3
Guest_StreetMagic_*

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It's a purposeful spit in the face of the Theirin bloodline.

 

But a polite spit.. if you can call it that. No one really cares. It would seem that it doesn't matter if they have a right or not. Loghain was already breaking the mold as it is. And people spoke of Bryce as if he should have been king. It shows that people already entertain these sorts of ideas.. they'd probably get used to it. Not everyone is some old traditionalist like Eamon.

 

I say good riddance. Calenhad was a Reaver. Kind of an odd ruling family for the land of Andraste. It's not like he was divinely bestowed the title or something. It's possible that Flemeth was behind it. I think a cooler story would be if we rewound time and Elethea Cousland kicked Calenhad's ass in the first place.


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#4
Jaison1986

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It's mentioned a couple of times that the Cousland family is the most powerful noble family in all of Ferelden, second only to the royal family, so it's completely understable for you to have an right to the throne (especially if you have the support of the current queen). And it seems the Landsmeet have the final say of who becomes the new ruler, since it's mentioned in the human noble origin that Bryce was voted by many to be made king.

 

And also, it seems the term prince consort is short lived, since both Bodhan and Leliana call you king in DA2.


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#5
Wulfram

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Theoretically a Cousland could be granted the throne in their own right.  They have as much blood relation to Calenhad as Anora, probably more really if you went back far enough.  Though trying it'd probably be a good way to lose all your support

 

If you look at the Landsmeet, the player says "I shall rule at Queen Anora's side, as her husband", which implies that their right comes through Marriage - and just to be very clear, Anora then explicitly says "King-Consort" and also "General of my armies" which is a pretty clear statement of where she considers the power to lie.

 

Whether you're calling them King-Consort, Prince-Consort or King may just be a question of how polite you're being.  In the real world, we avoid giving powerless male consorts the title of King because it was assumed that King outranks Queen - but Thedas probably doesn't follow that prejudice, and thus Anora's husband might be referred to as King without implicitly subordinating her.

 

Though in time Anora may allow her husband to act as a nearly equal partner in governing Fereldan, since she does respect the Warden.  And on the other hand if they come into conflict, the Warden might use the considerably power that they would have in their own right or due to their family, as an Arl and perhaps a Teyrn, a brother of a Teyrn and as a hero.


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#6
ShadowLordXII

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In title, the game labels you as a king/prince-consort.

 

But in practice, it's very likely that the Warden would have more authority and standing with the people than Anora which makes them a legitimate king in all but name. They're one of the last two members of the most powerful noble house in Ferelden, their brother is Teryn of Highever, the warden himself can become Teryn of Gwaren, Arl of Amaranthine and the hero of Ferelden.

 

All Anora had was being the wife of the previous queen. Even her own claim to the throne was on shaky ground and needed the warden's assistance to be strengthened.


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#7
Mike3207

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I think Anora only insisted on the Cousland being Consort because she had a legitimate fear he would seize power. I think over time she realized those fears were groundless and she agreed to a equal sharing of power.


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#8
Corker

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You might be interested in some information on the Witanagemot.  It's the IRL Landsmeet, and modern scholars (according to Wikipedia; I haven't done any personal research into it) aren't certain exactly what it could or couldn't do. Of particular relevance:
 

These documents clearly indicate that the witan was composed of the nation's highest echelon of both ecclesiastical and secular officers. Present on the ecclesiastical side were archbishops, bishops, and abbots, and occasionally also abbesses and priests; on the secular side ealdormen (or eorls in the latter centuries) and thegns. Members of the royal family were also present, and the king presided over the entire body.

Just like the Landsmeet.

The king alone raised a man to the position of a gesith, a thane, a provincial or local reeve, a court officer or a royal chaplain, one of which titles seems to have been the indispensable qualification for a vote. .. as no periodicity of the assembly was fixed, the king determined when and where it was to meet, for the most part choosing places under his immediate control; he presided, spoke first, put his questions, proposed his bills, and finally dismissed the witan.

Unlike the Landsmeet, which a noble of sufficiently high rank (an arl) can call.

The witan was noted by contemporary sources as having the singular power to ceosan to cyninge, 'to choose the king' from amongst the (extended) royal family. Nevertheless, at least until the 11th century, royal succession generally followed the "ordinary system of primogeniture." Chadwick interpreted these facts as proof that the so-called election of the king by the witan merely amounted to formal recognition of the deceased king's natural successor.[13] But Liebermann was generally less willing than Chadwick to see the witan's significance as buried under the weight of the royal prerogative... Liebermann's more subtle position seems to be vindicated by testimony from abbot Ælfric of Eynsham, the leading homilist of the late 10th century, who wrote: "No man can make himself king, but the people has the choice to choose as king whom they please; but after he is consecrated as king, he then has dominion over the people, and they cannot shake his yoke off their necks."

And here's the scholars debating over one half of your question: Could the Witan/Landsmeet pick a king from somewhere other than the royal line?

In addition to having a role in the 'election' of English Kings, it is often held that the witenagemots had the power to depose an unpopular king. However, there are only two occasions where this probably happened, in 757 and 774 with the depositions of kings Sigeberht of Wessex and Alhred of Northumbria respectively. The witan's powers are illustrated by the following event. In the year 1013 King Æthelred II fled the country from Sweyn Forkbeard, who then had the witan proclaim him king. Within a few weeks, however, Sweyn died and Æthelred was called back to England by the witan. According to the Anglo-Saxon Chronicle, the witan would only receive him back under the condition that he promise to rule better than he had.

A little ambiguous, IMO, because really - was he going to say anything other than, "I so swear"? But it does appear, in theory, that the Witan could legally shut the door on the ruler and (one assumes) select another.

I know, I know: Thedas isn't our world. However, I think when you use our world as obvious inspiration for detailed world design, it isn't unreasonable for those seeking to develop it further (or understand it as-built) to look back at that original source for evidence. Your mileage may vary.

Double-plus however: I don't think it matters. It doesn't matter what the Landsmeet said, or whether they were technically able to say it or not. Ferelden is a nation where wars have been fought over an apple tree. At the end of the day, what matters is having the power to enforce your will on the country. (I mean, the Orlesians ruled for 80 years and got nobles like Tarleton Howe to swear fealty, and they sure weren't of the blood of Calenhad.)

Anyhow to your questions:

1) The Landsmeet nearly put Bryce Cousland on the throne over Cailan, so I'm thinking yes, they can do that. It's not like Ferelden has a constitution where it's spelled out that only a Theirin can sit on the throne. Calenhad brought the bannorn together by strength of personality and arms, but a lot of the noble families have a mythology of how they chose to serve under his banner (even if he had to kick their butts first, like the Couslands). They can decide to chose to serve someone else if they want to.

2) Interestingly, the 9:30 Dragon Landsmeet never votes on the crown. After the Loghain duel is resolved, Arl Eamon unilaterally tells the Warden to pick a potentate. However, this is probably for smooth, quick narrative, so let's pretend that what really happens is that the Warden puts forward a Throne Solution and the Landsmeet approves it...

...but when you are looking for the devil in the details, you can't hide the details. What exactly would the Landsmeet approve? Would Anora start a debate/fight if he said, "I'll marry her and be king"? Would the Landsmeet approve anyway? Would there be a week of political bickering while it was ironed out? Probably.

But that's all a round-up to a big "doesn't matter." Loghain didn't need 'the will of the Landsmeet' to rule for a year. If the Warden is made Prince-Consort, but has the power to rule like a king, he's the king. The consequences of that might be bad for Ferelden, because Anora will fight it. How hard the Warden pushes the issue, and at what point in their reign, may make a lot of difference there.

Last consideration: what stands in the way of a sunshine-and-rainbows ending with king and queen co-ruling happily, sharing power and trust, is everyone else. I think that even if Anora came to trust m!Cousland not to shove her off the throne at the first opportunity, were he co-regent, she would be concerned that as soon as he were crowned, everyone would assume he was "really" in charge and stop acknowledging her as the other ruler. She had enough of that disrespect for her ability under Cailan, and might not want to make Cousland a co-regent for that reason alone.
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