Anyway , I will not turn this thread about the Templar/Mage issue
Suffice to say , I think Anders was written in purpose like that . Now liking him or hating is a matter of taste , and it apply to everything in game not just him .
Yes, agreed. Let's not do that.
TLDR
And nope Anders lost all credibility when he blew up the Chantry.
The point is he tried, to do what you said. But factors drove him over the edge.
He sure didn't try very hard.
Anders lost control of Justice, if he killed Ella he felt very guilty about it. It was really more of Justice killing Ella, than Anders.
Oh well as long as he feels guilty about that it makes his complacency, inaction, selfishness, and murder of innocents ok!
Anders lost control of Justice, if he killed Ella he felt very guilty about it. It was really more of Justice killing Ella, than Anders.
Anders isn't an innocent bystander and for that matter Justice isn't a murdering lunatic for every Anders fan to place the blame on. Play Awakening if you haven't, flat out murder isn't how Justice was written. Dragon Age 2 screwed up two characters for the price of one. Anders became a whiny emo terrorist and Justice became a one note scape goat for everything that Anders did that was wrong. "Anders lost control of Justice, it wasn't Anders fault he was a whiny annoying jerk the entire game. Justice is driving him mad!"
Well Justice is a spirit of... Justice. At least in Awakening he was, in DA2 he pops in to screw things up every few hours then goes back to being suppressed.
Awakening Justice hated demons more than anything else in existence. Demons were number 1-150 of 'top things Justice hates" All Justice had to do was see every mage in Kirkwall say 'Woe is me, I'm so oppressed, let me summon a demon and use blood magic to prove we aren't all blood mages that consort with demons' and he would have sided with the Templars in Act 1.
DA2 Justice/Anders was written very poorly and out of character for both of them and so many posts I've read where people defend this character put way too much of their own fan fiction imagination into why the character was deeper than what was written.
He's also kind of a whiny, entitled ******.
I found Anders fascinating because as much as I wanted to throat-punch him, I freaking know people like him. People who believe that because they feel something strongly, it must be correct. That never for a moment consider they could be wrong or ever bother to see things through someone else's eyes. That anyone who disagrees with them is not just wrong, but a bad person who chooses to reject what they obviously should believe and support (which is whatever they believe). Solipsists.
Anders felt like a real person to me. A bad person. A childish, selfish person. But real.
Anders isn't an innocent bystander and for that matter Justice isn't a murdering lunatic for every Anders fan to place the blame on. Play Awakening if you haven't, flat out murder isn't how Justice was written. Dragon Age 2 screwed up two characters for the price of one. Anders became a whiny emo terrorist and Justice became a one note scape goat for everything that Anders did that was wrong. "Anders lost control of Justice, it wasn't Anders fault he was a whiny annoying jerk the entire game. Justice is driving him mad!"
Well Justice is a spirit of... Justice. At least in Awakening he was, in DA2 he pops in to screw things up every few hours then goes back to being suppressed.
Awakening Justice hated demons more than anything else in existence. Demons were number 1-150 of 'top things Justice hates" All Justice had to do was see every mage in Kirkwall say 'Woe is me, I'm so oppressed, let me summon a demon and use blood magic to prove we aren't all blood mages that consort with demons' and he would have sided with the Templars in Act 1.
DA2 Justice/Anders was written very poorly and out of character for both of them and so many posts I've read where people defend this character put way too much of their own fan fiction imagination into why the character was deeper than what was written.
In Awakening It's shown that Anders hated the Chantry and the Templars, and he half jokeingly said that he would rain fire on them if he had the chance. Also in Awakening Justice suggested that Anders should "strike a blow" against the mages something Anders was against. In DA2 Anders was still against the idea, in Act 1 he was more concerned of getting his lover Karl out of Kirkwall. It was then when he saw Karl tranquilized is that Anders and Justice lost control and started to fight against Templars. Justice became a demon the moment he fused with Anders and was consumed by his hate for the chantry. So no they weren't out of character as you keep saying. Why don't insulting people who like a character you don't like, what's "emo" to you is compelling to them. I feel Anders a well written character to the point where you can either love him or hate him.
He sure didn't try very hard.
Oh well as long as he feels guilty about that it makes his complacency, inaction, selfishness, and murder of innocents ok!
Are you going to respond to my posts with snark? Do you have anything substantial to say?
This is an interesting topic, and I hope you're prepared for the onslaught OP.
While Anders isn't by any stretch a favourite character of mine, and I certainly don't agree with him blowing up the chantry, I do understand his motives and his internal justification of his actions (especially as a plot device). After all, part of what is so appealing to me about the DA series is just how reflective of real life it's themes and characters are, and just how invested I become it's virtual world.
With that in mind, I personally have a really hard time siding with the templars during the events of the Last Straw simply because of how wrongly I feel mages are treated as a whole, if not more so in this particular situation. I'm aware that not all templars are nut jobs like Alrik and Meredith, but the fact remains that mages are treated like less that human (just as the OP so eloquently states). Siding with Meredith honestly makes me feel dirty.
So I guess where I'm going with this is a thank you to the OP for so clearly voicing my own thoughts on mage oppression within the DA world, when a lot of what I've seen around BSN lately is templar support (which by the way it totally fine, as each person is entitled to their own opinion. It's just nice to come across someone who shares your own views from time to time 
)
I don't think Anders is a two-dimensional cardboard cutout, I think he's an assh*le.
Rest in pieces, you mad abomination.
In Awakening It's shown that Anders hated the Chantry and the Templars, and he half jokeingly said that he would rain fire on them if he had the chance. Also in Awakening Justice suggested that Anders should "strike a blow" against the mages something Anders was against. In DA2 Anders was still against the idea, in Act 1 he was more concerned of getting his lover Karl out of Kirkwall. It was then when he saw Karl tranquilized is that Anders and Justice lost control and started to fight against Templars. Justice became a demon the moment he fused with Anders and was consumed by his hate for the chantry. So no they weren't out of character as you keep saying. Why don't insulting people who like a character you don't like, what's "emo" to you is compelling to them. I feel Anders a well written character to the point where you can either love him or hate him.
Thank you for saying this so well! Anders/Justice is written correctly and believably with realistic character progression, I feel. Now, does the combination of these two and the events end in a good person or positive events? Hell no! Anders loses all sense of reality and lies through his teeth to the ones he loves (potentially) to involve them in mass-murder. However, from Anders' viewpoint, I think it all makes perfect sense. Justice became Vengeance a long time ago by the time the Chantry is incinerated. When the inustices never stop, when Anders has to keep hiding and helping mages flee, it's easy to see how he imposes his own pain onto them and only sees the good in all mages as opposed to the real dangers they face with demons, becoming abominations (ironic), and the temptation of uncontrollable blood magic.
Act III is a time of unbelievably high tension. Maybe the story could convey this more but I really felt it when I played through. Anders commits an atrocity and knows full well what he's doing. Justice has lost his bearings and is only there to feed on Anders' pain, I think. It's sad and horrible and should make you angry but I really feel it's good writing and an interesting (but painful) arc for these two characters.
I have Hawkes that run away with him with just mild tension about the lying between them and Hawkes that kill him with hate in their hearts.
In Awakening It's shown that Anders hated the Chantry and the Templars, and he half jokeingly said that he would rain fire on them if he had the chance. Also in Awakening Justice suggested that Anders should "strike a blow" against the mages something Anders was against. In DA2 Anders was still against the idea, in Act 1 he was more concerned of getting his lover Karl out of Kirkwall. It was then when he saw Karl tranquilized is that Anders and Justice lost control and started to fight against Templars. Justice became a demon the moment he fused with Anders and was consumed by his hate for the chantry. So no they weren't out of character as you keep saying. Why don't insulting people who like a character you don't like, what's "emo" to you is compelling to them. I feel Anders a well written character to the point where you can either love him or hate him.
Suggesting that they strike a blow at oppressors is different from murdering someone that was being attacked by Templars. 'Yes' it was out of character for both of them to go down that path. It's also different than blowing up a building full of innocent people.
His/their goal was to drag the planet into a war by magically blowing up a building full of innocent people, how is that not out of character for both Anders and Justice? If his goal was just to force a war for freedom by creating conditions that removed any chance at a middle ground he could have killed every Templar in the city and strung up their bodies in a big show of defiance. But Templars could fight back, so he cowardly picked an old lady and a building full of whoever decided to pray that day. Anders is a terrorist who wants to martyr himself, he even says that he wants to be a martyr.
That is not in character for Justice to make an example out of innocent people. It is not in character for Anders to pick innocent people and not fight against the Templars directly, he fought brood mothers, giant golems made of molten ore and dragons to name just a few. Anders would not have cowardly picked easy innocent targets over who he saw his real enemy to be. So 'yes' Justice/Anders in DA2 was a poorly written character.
Also I have no idea what you mean by this "Why don't insulting people who like a character you don't like" I would think you were telling me not to insult people but I didn't insult anyone. Unless you think me calling Anders a 'whiny emo terrorist' is insulting to real people?
@chance52
But Justice is trapped in a world that makes no sense to him in a magical situation that is poisoning him and that he can't escape from. It's established that Justice "loses his mind" and essentialy becomes Vengeance. The character progressed. The progression is dark and can be critiqued but it is literally "in character" because it follows the rules of the world and is a logical progression of the consequences of him possessing Anders. Anders/Justice is an Abomination, even if they both start as really nice.
Justice is a creature of pure, unadulterated ideology at first. Yet he lives in a world of horror and shades of grey. Everywhere he goes, he feeds off of Anders' pain and Anders' feeds off of Justice's dysphoria at living in the real world. It makes them different and dangerous and it's their character arcs, plain and simple. Which is why it is "in character".
But that isn't true that he can't escape. He left Kristoff's body at will, he entered Anders at will and during DA2 you can even take him back into the fade itself. He isn't trapped against his will inside of Anders and even if he couldn't make it back to the fade on his own, it was unclear in Awakening if he could or not as he never tried, you can take him there early on and he chooses not to stay in the fade.
Also slowly transitioning to Vengeance still doesn't explain his targeting of innocent people over the true enemy he saw as Templars. It also doesn't explain why he never cared that the people he was championing were, in Kirkwall at least, mostly summoning demons and using blood magic. At no point in the 10 years and hundreds of demons later did Justice/Vengeance/Anders think "well maybe the Templars of this city have a point" He could have made every bit a gruesome and dark point without involving innocent people. I fail to see how targeting people that randomly showed up to the Chantry that day is in character for them at any point when they proved over and over that they were not cowardly or would shy away from fighting overwhelming odds.
Okay, I clearly misremembered/misunderstood the exact magical relationship between Justice and his host, my apologies. We do know he is trapped outside the Fade though and it makes sense he would think of Anders as a friend no matter what, especially as he starts to lose his mind. This is the fault of Anders' thirst for vengeance, disguised as an overdeveloped sense of inustice, which definitely was mentioned by Anders in DA2.
The point of their arc is that clearly both characters have lost all sense of right and wrong and justice in the end. It's sad but their very noble goals become twisted into the very opposite of that as they spend more time together, festering in the mind of the other. By the time they blow up the Chantry, their enemy is really just about everyone, I think that's evident in the way Anders freely uses all of his friends and associates to reach his obssession and no longer cares for lives but the message he can send. He admits it's wrong but he's almost satisfied to have done something so heinous that his death is the logical choice.
It's supposed to be jarring and awful because he's been lying and manipulating to kill people which is when we're supposed to realize just how completely far gone Anders and Justice both are. Neither is separate from the other (I think we see him enter the glow-y, Justice/Vengeance state to blow it up, right?) and they both just want blood at the end, they don't care who it hurts or how very much it actually discredits their states goals.
Varric's banter mentions the progression between the Acts if you have them both in the party. I think the arc could have been smoothed out or fleshed out more in many areas but my problem is with claiming this is outright an illogical path for the characters. We could have seen him slip up more and have both of them reveal how out of touch they were but I still feel the concept of the arc should be defended even if there are problems with the actualization.
Anders made his choice.
He intentionally instigated a war he knew would kill a lot of people. He knew that not every mage agreed with his POV but he tried to force them to fight anyways. He is directly responsible for the death of the Kirkwall circle by killing the one person who had repeatedly denied the request for ROA.
If he somehow survives to see my Qunari Mage Inquisitor....he will see his wish granted in the worst possible way. I will destroy ever single Templar I see waging war against the mages. However I will also kill every mage that is waging war against the Templars. Those acosting the innocent populace will be the first to die, and I will make sure Anders lives to see his hated Templars crushed and his rebellion stomped under my boot heel. Only the People (Templar and Mage) who were smart enough to stay out of this will survive to rebuild the circle...under MY supervision.
When all is said and done, when the Rebellion is ashes, the Templar order is brought to heel and the Mages are yoked to MY will....then I will cut off Anders head and thrust it n a pike as a warning to the next ten generations that those who start wars will face the Inquisitions wrath.
On that glorious day I will look up into Anders Lifeless eyes and wave like this...
Anders is my pro mage Hawke BFF.
Suggesting that they strike a blow at oppressors is different from murdering someone that was being attacked by Templars. 'Yes' it was out of character for both of them to go down that path. It's also different than blowing up a building full of innocent people.
His/their goal was to drag the planet into a war by magically blowing up a building full of innocent people, how is that not out of character for both Anders and Justice? If his goal was just to force a war for freedom by creating conditions that removed any chance at a middle ground he could have killed every Templar in the city and strung up their bodies in a big show of defiance. But Templars could fight back, so he cowardly picked an old lady and a building full of whoever decided to pray that day. Anders is a terrorist who wants to martyr himself, he even says that he wants to be a martyr.
That is not in character for Justice to make an example out of innocent people. It is not in character for Anders to pick innocent people and not fight against the Templars directly, he fought brood mothers, giant golems made of molten ore and dragons to name just a few. Anders would not have cowardly picked easy innocent targets over who he saw his real enemy to be. So 'yes' Justice/Anders in DA2 was a poorly written character.
Also I have no idea what you mean by this "Why don't insulting people who like a character you don't like" I would think you were telling me not to insult people but I didn't insult anyone. Unless you think me calling Anders a 'whiny emo terrorist' is insulting to real people?
Because Justice sees things in black and white and combined with Anders anger and hatred towards the Templars, he transformed into the demon Vengeance and he lashes out on people whom he perceives as a threat to he and Anders goals. Anders and Justice loss all sense of right and wrong as the game progressed due to Kirkwall itself, Meredeth's insanity and Justice's influence. By the way the cowardly old woman is actually the person who controls the Templars, she's who Meredeth answers to and she's one of the most powerful people in Kirkwall. So it is understandable why he would target her.
When you say: People " put way too much of their own fan fiction imagination into why the character was deeper than what was written." Then that's an insult to me since those people probably see things different then you do.
Because Justice sees things in black and white and combined with Anders anger and hatred towards the Templars, he transformed into the demon Vengeance and he lashes out on people whom he perceives as a threat to he and Anders goals. Anders and Justice loss all sense of right and wrong as the game progressed due to Kirkwall itself, Meredeth's insanity and Justice's influence. By the way the cowardly old woman is actually the person who controls the Templars, she's who Meredeth answers to and she's one of the most powerful people in Kirkwall. So it is understandable why he would target her.
When you say: People " put way too much of their own fan fiction imagination into why the character was deeper than what was written." Then that's an insult to me since those people probably see things different then you do.
That isn't insulting, that is 1/3 of a sentence and when you chop up a sentence you change it's meaning. Here is the entire sentence:
DA2 Justice/Anders was written very poorly and out of character for both of them and so many posts I've read where people defend this character put way too much of their own fan fiction imagination into why the character was deeper than what was written.
Note how I wrote that I've read posts where people put their own fan fiction reasons into why Anders was deeper than what was written?
Also I never said that Elthina was cowardly, I said blowing up an old woman and a church full of whoever was praying at the time was cowardly.
Is English a second language for you? Because you are taking my words and twisting there meaning and I'd like to think its a simple language issue rather than done with the intent of undermining my comments.
I respect Anders goal.
I do not respect his methods. I will keep him alive in one of my playthroughs because I'm interested to see how his life will progress...
That isn't insulting, that is 1/3 of a sentence and when you chop up a sentence you change it's meaning. Here is the entire sentence:
DA2 Justice/Anders was written very poorly and out of character for both of them and so many posts I've read where people defend this character put way too much of their own fan fiction imagination into why the character was deeper than what was written.
Note how I wrote that I've read posts where people put their own fan fiction reasons into why Anders was deeper than what was written?
Also I never said that Elthina was cowardly, I said blowing up an old woman and a church full of whoever was praying at the time was cowardly.
Is English a second language for you? Because you are taking my words and twisting there meaning and I'd like to think its a simple language issue rather than done with the intent of undermining my comments.
Sssesh If misintepreted what you said I apologize no need to go overboard to what you said and we don't know specifically who was in the church at that time.
So I can get this out, I do not approve of Anders blowing up the Chantry. I understand why he did it, but I don't agree with him, in fact I felt tempted to kill him at first. However I let Anders go, so he can witness what the mages are going have to go through from now on. Revolutions are bloody and they do not end well and Anders will see that first hand, it's what Jennifer Helper described as "poetic justice".
If they retcon him back ill more then stab him with the my magic murder knife ill lop of his damn head this time
Guest_john_sheparrd_*
I enjoyed Anders character even though I don't agree in the slightest with him
for story purposes it was great what he did at the end of DA 2
but as a character? definitely a tragic guy but a villian nonetheless and he deserved to die for that (and he did)
After that I supported the Templars and purged the city of everyone who was bad : blood mages, nutbag orsino and of course crazy meredith
my Hawke could finally rule so thanks Anders I guess
This is an interesting topic, and I hope you're prepared for the onslaught OP.
i don't know why this jumped on top suddenly...i don't read the comments anymore anyways, sometimes i do it when there is something as well written said, otherwise am over paying attention to rabid fans that can't double take a look at things from the inside. I used too, now i rather like the time i spend with the ones who agree with me much better. That why i left this last thought here. I went to explain the situation in thedas from day one in the greatest details ever found, based on all the serie and tried to make the mind simulate it if it was ever real living consequences. what i said is the sad truth. but not so sad for me cause even if the situation doesnt happen to change, and the change thats coming to world doesnt include the mages total freedom, then i'll keep in mind that Anders is safe with my Hawke somewhere and close this chapter on the game there. and thats my final word.
and if you like and think Flemeth is wiser than anyone ,she already knew and says the words Anders says too : there can be no peace. Anders rather than someone else did it. and whats left is just a question of 'if you'll like him in spite of what he did ,or because of what he did' .
in all honesty i rather liked this stay a quiet thread ...but well impossible with people still ....
i'll clear a final thing: to whomever corrected me , Gaider long since wrote Anders role and sequel before Hepler or anyone so check with wiki.
I'll direct whoever is still conflicted about him here cause its the best explanation someone can found in this site so far and maybe even disccuss it one/one but otherwise am not here to twist made up minds, so thanks for check it in up and am done .
This pretty much sums up my view on him.I respect Anders goal.
I do not respect his methods. I will keep him alive in one of my playthroughs because I'm interested to see how his life will progress...
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