225 réponses à ce sujet

[Nefla]

The circle needed reform, not some terrorist murdering a bunch of innocents which he knew mages as a whole would take the fall for and taking away the choice of the very people he supposedly wanted to help.

[Ryzaki]

The circle needed reform, not some terrorist murdering a bunch of innocents which he knew mages as a whole would take the fall for and taking away the choice of the very people he supposedly wanted to help.

 

God yes his "I didn't think it'd be this bad." if you spare him and head to the docks pissed me the hell off.

 

too bad you didn't think of that before throwing them under the bus you ******.

[Nefla]

God yes his "I didn't think it'd be this bad." if you spare him and head to the docks pissed me the hell off.

 

too bad you didn't think of that before throwing them under the bus you ******.

Yeah I mean he didn't even think to...you know, rally the mages? Get them to rebel or see that they don't want to? Oh no, Anders knows best and will make your life altering decisions for you!

[SomeoneStoleMyName]

Anders is a warmongering terrorist, nothing more and nothing less.

 

Warmonger: a person who wants a war or tries to make other people want to start or fight a war

Terrorist: a person who employs the use of violence and threats to intimidate or coerce, especially for political purposes.

Example: So if say X country developed futuristic superweapons and invaded Y country, killing - enslaving and torturing thousands for a hundred years, and the Y country tried fighting back against this injustice - then they are warmongers?

 

Also by that definition religion is the biggest terrorist movement in the history of mankind. 
 

[aTigerslunch]

I don't want to get into RL religions stuff...try not to do that please.

[SomeoneStoleMyName]

I don't want to get into RL religions stuff...try not to do that please.

I didnt go through all the posts, but as for my post I only used it as an example to show that his reasoning does not have any logical connection to Anders' actions. I didnt want (and I dont intend)  to start a RL religious debate. 

Had to reply though. Calling someone a warmonger for starting a war against oppression is an argument that falls on itself.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Example: So if say X country developed futuristic superweapons and invaded Y country, killing - enslaving and torturing thousands for a hundred years, and the Y country tried fighting back against this injustice - then they are warmongers?

One problem with your example.

In your example, the people fighting have the support of the oppressed. Anders had no such support. Orsino condemns Anders to his face, and the other Circles write Anders off as a madman. 

[SmilesJA]

lolnope.

 

Yes he is  , and the Anders detractors can be just as insulting as some of the supporters.

[SmilesJA]

Yeah I mean he didn't even think to...you know, rally the mages? Get them to rebel or see that they don't want to? Oh no, Anders knows best and will make your life altering decisions for you!

 

Please and what were the Mages of Kirkwall going to do. Go to Elthina? She didn't want to have a hand in this. War in Kirkwall was inevitable, Anders just accelerated the process.

[LonewandererD]

Anders did not accelerate the situation, he forced it. Eventually yes Meredith would have lashed out against the mages; but by destroying the Chantry and Elthina, Anders gave Meredith justification and support of the people behind her actions. If the Chantry was still there the situation would still be strained but any such confrontation would have been fuelled by Meredith's paranoia most likely with the Chantry standing against her and most likely with a good deal of Templars leaving her side as they were examples of Templars seeking a peaceful solution. This would not have been a case of the righteous Templars rising up against the perceived monstrosities of the circle but rather the actions of a paranoid radical lashing out.

 

As Ander himself admitted he removed the middle ground, any chance of compromise, thus forcing everyone into a them or us situation. Ander was a radical, not some martyr or revolutionist who refused to believe the concept that his idea for the future was anything but the only way and all that stood against him were supporters of oppression. He painted the entire situation based on the actions of one authoritative figure, Meredith. It was not bad everywhere, in Rivaini the circle was more lax and it can been seen in individuals like Knight-Commander Gregoir that there were Templars in power will to seek a middle ground.

 

-D-

[aTigerslunch]

I would of preferred another way than what Anders did.  The people would of looked at Meredith as being crazy. Commoners were already saying she was whacked out in rumor mill.  Anders just tore that right up.

[Nefla]

Please and what were the Mages of Kirkwall going to do. Go to Elthina? She didn't want to have a hand in this. War in Kirkwall was inevitable, Anders just accelerated the process.

Escape, rebel with a PLAN, you know, things rational people would do. The mages were hit completely unaware and unprepared by a slaughter that Anders knew would happen when he started killing innocent people. Lets think about this for a moment shall we? If we are going to enter a brutal and bloody war, do we want it to be where our enemies blindside us and start slaughtering us in our beds before we even know what's happening? Or do we want an effective strategy that lets us stand a chance? Any logical and reasonable person in Anders' place would have either tried to use his immunity and connections through Hawke to press for serious reform as well as investigate cases of abuse by certain Templars OR started contacting circle mages in secret and find out 1) if they actually WANT to go to war or rebel and 2) who would make good ringleaders in a rebellion. Once you had found that the circle mages leaned towards rebellion and you found suitable collaborators, you could implement a plan and get the drop on the Templars instead of the other way around, all the while sneaking your children and non combatants out to safety through Ander's secret way into the Gallows. This isn't rocket science.

 

Setting off a bomb that kills a bunch of innocents and does NOTHING to weaken your enemy but rather instigates them and sets them on the path of butchering all your allies who don't even now what's going on is NOT a plan.

[SmilesJA]

Escape, rebel with a PLAN, you know, things rational people would do. The mages were hit completely unaware and unprepared by a slaughter that Anders knew would happen when he started killing innocent people. Lets think about this for a moment shall we? If we are going to enter a brutal and bloody war, do we want it to be where our enemies blindside us and start slaughtering us in our beds before we even know what's happening? Or do we want an effective strategy that lets us stand a chance? Any logical and reasonable person in Anders' place would have either tried to use his immunity and connections through Hawke to press for serious reform as well as investigate cases of abuse by certain Templars OR started contacting circle mages in secret and find out 1) if they actually WANT to go to war or rebel and 2) who would make good ringleaders in a rebellion. Once you had found that the circle mages leaned towards rebellion and you found suitable collaborators, you could implement a plan and get the drop on the Templars instead of the other way around, all the while sneaking your children and non combatants out to safety through Ander's secret way into the Gallows. This isn't rocket science.

 

Setting off a bomb that kills a bunch of innocents and does NOTHING to weaken your enemy but rather instigates them and sets them on the path of butchering all your allies who don't even now what's going on is NOT a plan.

 

 

Anders plan did work. The surviving mages from Kirkwall spread the word of Meredith's ROA to other Circles and as a result they rebelled.  Besides you're forgetting the fact that Anders wasn't rational, thanks to Vengenace. Also how do you know that the mages lost support of the people? I'm sure those who supported the mages were appalled at the Circle mages getting slaughtered thanks to the actions of an apostate. Just because things were lax in the other Circles doesn't mean there were some serious problems. Gerigor was willing to let the surviving mages in the Ferelden Circle to die instead doing his job rescuing them.

[Nefla]

Anders plan did work. The surviving mages from Kirkwall spread the word of Meredith's ROA to other Circles and as a result they rebelled.  Besides you're forgetting the fact that Anders wasn't rational, thanks to Vengenace. Also how do you know that the mages lost support of the people? I'm sure those who supported the mages were appalled at the Circle mages getting slaughtered thanks to the actions of an apostate. Just because things were lax in the other Circles doesn't mean there were some serious problems. Gerigor was willing to let the surviving mages in the Ferelden Circle to die instead doing his job rescuing them.

Key word: surviving. The survivors of the massacre he started spread word. The rest were used as sacrificial lambs. He should have martyred HIMSELF if he thought a sacrifice was necessary not scores of unwilling innocents. It was not his choice to make. As for him being irrational because of Justice, DA2 didn't show that well at all (but they did a generally poor job in the storytelling of the entire game) but if you're right, he should have been executed much earlier in the game. A dangerous, insane abomination who loses control, kills people on his side, and forces an entire population of people into te slaughterhouse for a rebellion they did not want...this is not something you want running around.

[Uccio]

A lot of Anders haters here I see. I didn't kill him in any of my playthroughs. Mages ftw!

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Anders plan did work. The surviving mages from Kirkwall spread the word of Meredith's ROA to other Circles and as a result they rebelled.

Without Hawke, none of the mages in Kirkwall would have survived. And the other Circles rebelled years later due to an entirely different set of circumstances. 

 

Besides you're forgetting the fact that Anders wasn't rational, thanks to Vengenace.

Only if Rivaled. If on the Friendship path, Anders is in complete control of his actions. 

 

Also how do you know that the mages lost support of the people?

When everything they were taught to fear about mages was validated by Anders' actions. 

 

I'm sure those who supported the mages were appalled at the Circle mages getting slaughtered thanks to the actions of an apostate.

Most won't even know of Anders, but just that mages blew up a Chantry building. Not even most of the Templars in Kirkwall knew that Anders was behind it.

 

Just because things were lax in the other Circles doesn't mean there were some serious problems. Gerigor was willing to let the surviving mages in the Ferelden Circle to die instead doing his job rescuing them.

Nobody is saying there isn't problems. There are problems with every organization. Though Gregoir was following procedure and right by sealing off the Circle. Abominations can act like completely normal mages and just pretend to be innocent victims until they see a time to strike. We see this with Anders. 

[whanzephruseke]

@Kallen Kouzuki/Stadtfeld: Your screenname/avvy made me realize that I've never seen anyone on the internet bash Lelouch like they do Anders.  Why is this?  They have very similar motivations and methods (actually, Lelouch is a lot less moral than Anders is), and yet Lelouch is loved and Anders is hated.

 

The reason why Anders is my favorite DA character is because, to me, he feels the most like a real person.  His flaws make him that much more compelling.  This does not mean that I support his choices, but I do feel very strongly that they were the correct choices for his character.  In fact, I was so moved by his journey as a person through Awakening and all three acts of DA2 that it inspired me to write a story covering it from his perspective.  My hope is that at least one person will read it once it's done and walk away thinking of him as more than just "that guy who always whines about the oppression of mages and then kills a bunch of innocent people."

[SmilesJA]

Key word: surviving. The survivors of the massacre he started spread word. The rest were used as sacrificial lambs. He should have martyred HIMSELF if he thought a sacrifice was necessary not scores of unwilling innocents. It was not his choice to make. As for him being irrational because of Justice, DA2 didn't show that well at all (but they did a generally poor job in the storytelling of the entire game) but if you're right, he should have been executed much earlier in the game. A dangerous, insane abomination who loses control, kills people on his side, and forces an entire population of people into te slaughterhouse for a rebellion they did not want...this is not something you want running around.

 

The game made it clear he was losing his mind. Anders mentioned that he was having blanks in his memory. Justice has had a grip in his mentality from Act 2 onwards. I strongly disagree that the game had bad storytelling. Anders did expect to die after blowing up the Chantry by the way.

[SmilesJA]

To repeat myself : So I can get this out, I do not approve of Anders blowing up the Chantry. I understand why he did it, but I don't agree with his methonds, in fact I felt tempted to kill him at first. However I let Anders go, so he can witness what the mages are going have to go through from now on. Revolutions are bloody and they do not end well and Anders will see that first hand, it's what Jennifer Helper described as "poetic justice". 

[chance52]

Why do all the Anders supporters feel they need to educate people that hate him?

 

I haven't seen anything in this thread that wasn't plane as day already from the games.  People just don't like a guy that tricks you into helping him commit mass murder. People don't like a guy that blows up a building to kill an old woman that continued over and over to prevent the right of annulment and whoever else was in there at the time. People don't like a guy that spends most of the game whining.

 

But the Anders supporters feel if they explain the character in just the right way suddenly people will love Anders in spite of him becoming a terrorist. People understand Anders, they understand mages have it bad and they understand something had to give. They just don't like what Anders becomes.

[whanzephruseke]

Why do all the Anders supporters feel they need to educate people that hate him?

 

I haven't seen anything in this thread that wasn't plane as day already from the games.  People just don't like a guy that tricks you into helping him commit mass murder. People don't like a guy that blows up a building to kill an old woman that continued over and over to prevent the right of annulment and whoever else was in there at the time. People don't like a guy that spends most of the game whining.

 

But the Anders supporters feel if they explain the character in just the right way suddenly people will love Anders in spite of him becoming a terrorist. People understand Anders, they understand mages have it bad and they understand something had to give. They just don't like what Anders becomes.

 

I'm not trying to make people like him as a person--I just want people to appreciate his role in the narrative.  He's the perfect Byronic hero, but that doesn't mean I'd want him as a friend in real life.

[Nefla]

The game made it clear he was losing his mind. Anders mentioned that he was having blanks in his memory. Justice has had a grip in his mentality from Act 2 onwards. I strongly disagree that the game had bad storytelling. Anders did expect to die after blowing up the Chantry by the way.

So he should have been executed early on.

 

You believe DA2 had good storytelling? What about it was good exactly? The string of unconnected fetch quests that make up the plot? The meandering goals (run errands for money, then run errands for the Qunari, then run errands for the mages and Templars) that don't tie together? The lack of anything that makes you think? The cartoonish, hamfisted attempts to make you feel something (o noes ur mom iz a zombie!) The fact that everyone outside your party is shallow and one dimensional? The forced mages vs Templars idea that was shoved in your face by making every mage an insane psycho killer blood mage and every Templar an insane tranquil inducing rapist? Yes, I'm sure DA2 will be held up as one of the literary masterpieces of our time.

[Andersfels-one]

Those are my convictions 

there's a lot of acceptance there about revolution and what happened in 1832 on the barricades and how many people died fighting for freedom from oppression. It's a generally lauded fact because the way Hugo spins it, it puts the Republicans in a good light. (Which is amusing because he, himself, was a Bonapartist, I believe). Enjolras himself embodies the spirit of revolution, and he dies for the cause, along with his friends. Anders is made a martyr if you kill him (which I could never do). He realizes that there's a steep price for what he does. It's a THOUSAND years of oppression, subjugation, the Chantry-sanctioned stealing of children, of killing citizens, of lobotomizing (even 'illegally' it's done - Harrowed mages can't be made tranquil, right? That's supposed to be a rule). And Anders spends SEVEN years trying to do things peacefully, but no one is listening.

 

He even thinks Hawke, in a friendship romance, will kill him. People don't understand this. Hawke, his lover, someone he's slept next to for at least three years, who's said they love him. "I never thought you'd spare my life." How terrifying is that? Sleeping next to someone you think is going to kill you for your beliefs.

 

A lot of people in privileged countries (speaking largely for Americans) won't really understand what it's like to give your life for a cause, because we have a lot of those freedoms that people fight for already - the right to appoint their own leaders, the pursuit of happiness, the right to work, to buy and sell things. I mean, people are were still fighting just yesterday for the right to marry their same sex lover in their states. I personally don't think I would ever give my life for a cause, but I admire those who would. Some causes ARE worth it. And freedom definitely is. I could not live the way the mages in the Circle live. It's truly a prison. Not being able to cook a meal for yourself? Not having a moment of privacy? Never able to feel the rain on your face? To only 'play' at love? Alain said they lock them up with not LIGHT and no AIR !!! and even with karras dead he say ,'the templars, they ask things of us'... yeah let's make the mages live like this for another 1000 years ~

 

But noo, Anders gets so much **** for the Chantry when everybody gives Isabela a pass for the Qunari uprising, when probably way more people died during that debacle (including the Viscount, which leads to more oppression etc). Why? because Isabela is essentially operating under the auspices of capitalism, it is all okay, whereas the sin in the Chantry boom is that Anders is political. It isn't the death count or the number of innocents, it's the violence against an unjust state that makes people recoil because we're told very specific things about revolution and civil disobedience, and "violence is never the answer" even when the violence the state is enacting on the bodies of the oppressed is very real, ubiquitous, "justified" and unceasing.

 

buut anyways let's not turn  this too capitalism vs politic ! 

 

in the end I place a lot of the blame at Elthina's feet in this DA2. Even Sebastian, who's arguably the most anti-Anders (anti-mage, anti-cause, etc etc) character in the game wants Elthina to take a stance. Her inaction caused a lot of problems. She could have stopped Meredith, she could have forced a new viscount, I'm sure. She didn't have to take a side, no, but she had to have seen what Meredith was doing those last three years. 

 

This my opinion in this ! and its just a little part of why i love the hell outa this true hero with a diamond heart. These are my convictions and as the wise men says :

"Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable."

[SmilesJA]

So he should have been executed early on.

 

You believe DA2 had good storytelling? What about it was good exactly? The string of unconnected fetch quests that make up the plot? The meandering goals (run errands for money, then run errands for the Qunari, then run errands for the mages and Templars) that don't tie together? The lack of anything that makes you think? The cartoonish, hamfisted attempts to make you feel something (o noes ur mom iz a zombie!) The fact that everyone outside your party is shallow and one dimensional? The forced mages vs Templars idea that was shoved in your face by making every mage an insane psycho killer blood mage and every Templar an insane tranquil inducing rapist? Yes, I'm sure DA2 will be held up as one of the literary masterpieces of our time.

 

 I consider DA2 a deep and complex game, It has it's flaws for sure however it made it up with its smaller more personal storyline. At first when I played it, I thought It was nothing more than just a generic fantasy game. Though as time went on I was immersed thanks to nothing more than the characters in the game. To me they were relatable, interesting and entertaining. I really felt an emotional blow when Hawke's mother died. I could go on and on, but to me I never felt attached to a story and characters  from a game in a long time the way DA2 held me.

 

So in short yes I do think DA2 had good storytelling, you can snark at me on that, but I don't care, In I don't care if I'm the only one in this forum who likes DA2's story. It showed me a world where there was conflict, but there were no easy answers. And while the characters were flawed, I felt closer to them  than I was closer to the companions in Origins. This was the game that made me a fan of the Dragon Age series and I hope DAI won't ignore anything from DA2.

[aTigerslunch]

I get why Anders would do what he did. I dont support what he did. I feel he was written well, though it seems a few dont.  *shrugs*  My opinion and theirs... I wont try to change their thinking, and I know they cant change mine.