225 réponses à ce sujet

[Andersfels-one]

I get why Anders would do what he did. I dont support what he did. I feel he was written well, though it seems a few dont.  *shrugs*  My opinion and theirs... I wont try to change their thinking, and I know they cant change mine.

You know, in the end, if you understood that He's not a mad crazy and a villain with no purpose and no heart, well its enough !. though you could have undertood that what he did was really needed. now before tomorrow at this state. But its fine enough. so yeah, good,man ! 

[aTigerslunch]

Anyone blowing up anything is mad and crazy though. 

[Andersfels-one]

 I consider DA2 a deep and complex game, It has it's flaws for sure however it made it up with its smaller more personal storyline. At first when I played it, I thought It was nothing more than just a generic fantasy game. Though as time went on I was immersed thanks to nothing more than the characters in the game. To me they were relatable, interesting and entertaining. I really felt an emotional blow when Hawke's mother died. I could go on and on, but to me I never felt attached to a story and characters  from a game in a long time the way DA2 held me.

 

So in short yes I do think DA2 had good storytelling, you can snark at me on that, but I don't care, In I don't care if I'm the only one in this forum who likes DA2's story. It showed me a world where there was conflict, but there were no easy answers. And while the characters were flawed, I felt closer to them  than I was closer to the companions in Origins. This was the game that made me a fan of the Dragon Age series and I hope DAI won't ignore anything from DA2.

I agree and feel the same with everything so you're not alone in this forum at least haha. DO was a great adventure, people will always remember that, but DA2 was full of emotions and close to some realities. So it got my heart far more than Origin.  the events that happened in DA2 could have been relatated to so many crisis and the reality in our world ,its hard for me not to do comparisons all the time but its gonna turn into a parliament with people's own political and religious convictions ...people don't vote for the same person in the end lol. 

 

But if people think DA2 was bad writting just because it felt too short in comparison with the first, or for whatever reason, they didnt grasp the game fully am telling you. they missed very interesting pointed things but i am not accusing anyone of playing the game many times without realising that. After all you can play the game just to have fun, not to bother with emotions or think twice about the meaning of some actions!. But after the first playthrough, i just couldn't ignore all the similarities and think about the events our fathers went through to leave us this freedom we're enjoying now.

I too feel close to the characters of DA2 more than origin, though some used to ****** me off but it wasn't a reason to say they're not well written ! 

[Andersfels-one]

Anyone blowing up anything is mad and crazy though. 

only when its not worth it. am sure you'll have felt glad if you were and your kind as persecuted and were about to die guiltless. 

[Neon Rising Winter]

Anyone blowing up anything is mad and crazy though. 

I was going to ask if that included balloons, then realised all my balloon blowing up activities of the last decade or so have been for children's parties, so mad and crazy does apply.

[R0vena]

only when its not worth it. am sure you'll have felt glad if you were and your kind as persecuted and were about to die guiltless. 

What I personally know for sure I wouldn't be glad if any of my family or friends  happened to pass by too close at the time of the blowing, just cause or no.

 

That said, I think Anders was an interesting and unusual character. I don't like him much (for reasons far removed from all mage-templar business) and don't agree with his actions, but I sympathize nonetheless. The guy sure was in a hell of a situation. No wonder he lost it at the end.

 

Depending what Hawke I play, I let him live or not... about 50/50 ratio.

[OptionFour]

 

 

But if people think DA2 was bad writting just because it felt too short in comparison with the first, or for whatever reason, they didnt grasp the game fully am telling you. they missed very interesting pointed things but i am not accusing anyone of playing the game many times without realising that. After all you can play the game just to have fun, not to bother with emotions or think twice about the meaning of some actions!. But after the first playthrough, i just couldn't ignore all the similarities and think about the events our fathers went through to leave us this freedom we're enjoying now.

 

 

Get ready for this. I am going to rock your world, mate. Hold on tight. 'Kay. Ready? 'Kay. Here goes.

 

Sometimes two people (or more!) can both completely, 100% understand everything there is to know about a given topic. They can both appreciate its nuances, its subtleties, how the story relates to modern themes, and everything that it means to the other party.

All while disagreeing about whether or not it was good, and how it makes them feel!

 

That is actually the essence of differing opinions. Two people can actually be well-informed and still think different things. Its neat.

 

If this seems slighlty hostile, that's because assuming that everyone who disagrees with you simply lacks your mastery of a topic is very near the height of arrogance. Its not flattering, and its terribly condescending.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

 

@Kallen Kouzuki/Stadtfeld: Your screenname/avvy made me realize that I've never seen anyone on the internet bash Lelouch like they do Anders.  Why is this?  They have very similar motivations and methods (actually, Lelouch is a lot less moral than Anders is), and yet Lelouch is loved and Anders is hated.

 

The reason why Anders is my favorite DA character is because, to me, he feels the most like a real person.  His flaws make him that much more compelling.  This does not mean that I support his choices, but I do feel very strongly that they were the correct choices for his character.  In fact, I was so moved by his journey as a person through Awakening and all three acts of DA2 that it inspired me to write a story covering it from his perspective.  My hope is that at least one person will read it once it's done and walk away thinking of him as more than just "that guy who always whines about the oppression of mages and then kills a bunch of innocent people."

Oh, several reasons really. But mainly the fact he had the support of the oppressed.

 

I know Anders is more than the quoted, but doesn't change the fact that he is the quoted. Many dictators have benefited the country they ruled in ways, but it doesn't change the fact they were a dictator.  

 

Those are my convictions 

there's a lot of acceptance there about revolution and what happened in 1832 on the barricades and how many people died fighting for freedom from oppression. It's a generally lauded fact because the way Hugo spins it, it puts the Republicans in a good light. (Which is amusing because he, himself, was a Bonapartist, I believe). Enjolras himself embodies the spirit of revolution, and he dies for the cause, along with his friends. Anders is made a martyr if you kill him (which I could never do). He realizes that there's a steep price for what he does. It's a THOUSAND years of oppression, subjugation, the Chantry-sanctioned stealing of children, of killing citizens, of lobotomizing (even 'illegally' it's done - Harrowed mages can't be made tranquil, right? That's supposed to be a rule). And Anders spends SEVEN years trying to do things peacefully, but no one is listening.

A Harrowed mage can still be Tranquilized if certain conditions are met. Uldred is a perfect example of why that condition is in place. But it is very rare. 

 

 

He even thinks Hawke, in a friendship romance, will kill him. People don't understand this. Hawke, his lover, someone he's slept next to for at least three years, who's said they love him. "I never thought you'd spare my life." How terrifying is that? Sleeping next to someone you think is going to kill you for your beliefs.

Don't get me started on his relationship with Hawke. Anders is the man who manipulates it for his benefit when wanting Hawke's help if Hawke expresses doubts. 

 

 

A lot of people in privileged countries (speaking largely for Americans) won't really understand what it's like to give your life for a cause, because we have a lot of those freedoms that people fight for already - the right to appoint their own leaders, the pursuit of happiness, the right to work, to buy and sell things. I mean, people are were still fighting just yesterday for the right to marry their same sex lover in their states. I personally don't think I would ever give my life for a cause, but I admire those who would. Some causes ARE worth it. And freedom definitely is. I could not live the way the mages in the Circle live. It's truly a prison. Not being able to cook a meal for yourself? Not having a moment of privacy? Never able to feel the rain on your face? To only 'play' at love? Alain said they lock them up with not LIGHT and no AIR !!! and even with karras dead he say ,'the templars, they ask things of us'... yeah let's make the mages live like this for another 1000 years ~

How about you don't make assumptions about people and bash them for it?

And again, Kirkwall is not the norm for Circles. DA2 was made to show the worst of both sides of the conflict. If you flip it around and say that all mages are like the ones in Kirkwall, it would be a ridiculous notion. Same thing. 

 

 

But noo, Anders gets so much **** for the Chantry when everybody gives Isabela a pass for the Qunari uprising, when probably way more people died during that debacle (including the Viscount, which leads to more oppression etc). Why? because Isabela is essentially operating under the auspices of capitalism, it is all okay, whereas the sin in the Chantry boom is that Anders is political. It isn't the death count or the number of innocents, it's the violence against an unjust state that makes people recoil because we're told very specific things about revolution and civil disobedience, and "violence is never the answer" even when the violence the state is enacting on the bodies of the oppressed is very real, ubiquitous, "justified" and unceasing.

 

buut anyways let's not turn  this too capitalism vs politic ! 

Again with your assumptions of people. 

As for Isabela, there are a lot of people who have shown disgust with some of the things she has done, both in DA2 and in her past. But unlike Anders, she tries to stop a conflict rather than start one by returning the book if close enough to Hawke. In comparison, Anders never backs down from blowing up the Chantry.

 

Then don't bring it up. 

 

 

in the end I place a lot of the blame at Elthina's feet in this DA2. Even Sebastian, who's arguably the most anti-Anders (anti-mage, anti-cause, etc etc) character in the game wants Elthina to take a stance. Her inaction caused a lot of problems. She could have stopped Meredith, she could have forced a new viscount, I'm sure. She didn't have to take a side, no, but she had to have seen what Meredith was doing those last three years. 

 

This my opinion in this ! and its just a little part of why i love the hell outa this true hero with a diamond heart. These are my convictions and as the wise men says :

"Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable."

Elthina had no legal authority to do anything else. The Grand Cleric's only authority over the Templars is the ability to approve or disapprove the Right of Annulment. And she had been doing that for months. Anything else was outside of her jurisdiction. 

 

As for your quote, Anders is able to say he is both of those kinds of people. 

[SmilesJA]

Why do all the Anders supporters feel they need to educate people that hate him?

 

I haven't seen anything in this thread that wasn't plane as day already from the games.  People just don't like a guy that tricks you into helping him commit mass murder. People don't like a guy that blows up a building to kill an old woman that continued over and over to prevent the right of annulment and whoever else was in there at the time. People don't like a guy that spends most of the game whining.

 

But the Anders supporters feel if they explain the character in just the right way suddenly people will love Anders in spite of him becoming a terrorist. People understand Anders, they understand mages have it bad and they understand something had to give. They just don't like what Anders becomes.

 

Why do Anders detractors, always feel the need to call out the supporters? Detractors always feel the need to call a terrorist, even though the supporters feel it's more complex than that.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Why do Anders detractors, always feel the need to call out the supporters? Detractors always feel the need to call a terrorist, even though the supporters feel it's more complex than that.

Most likely because the supporters imply that the non-supporters are lesser to them in intelligence or maturity for not supporting Anders. 

And regardless of how complex the situation is, he is a terrorist. He fits the definition of the term.

[prosthetic soul]

You know, I REALLY hate the term tl;dr because it makes me think people are lazy.  I mean reading isn't that hard.  If you can't be bothered to read a couple of paragraphs then.....

 

But yeah.....

 

tl;dr

[Andersfels-one]

Why do Anders detractors, always feel the need to call out the supporters? Detractors always feel the need to call a terrorist, even though the supporters feel it's more complex than that.

uh don't bother anymore, does who're likely to understand wont need to go to the six page. All that was needed to say was said in the opening. let them call him terrorist and put the all evil on him, after all ,its something so usual in our world (again), brand innocent people terrorists and evil because those who govern us and those who pretend to be saints claim so...am not nearly surprised really ! 

thats my final say in this matter. 

[Leo]

let them call him terrorist and put the all evil on him, after all ,its something so usual in our world (again), brand innocent people terrorists and evil because those who govern us and those who pretend to be saints claim so...am not nearly surprised really ! 

thats my final say in this matter. 

I'm sorry, but I really hope you aren't saying that Anders is innocent.

 

He blew up a church with Elthina inside, and who knows how many people could've died from the debris, not to mention forcing a slaughter of mages and probably many more Kirkwall civilians who likely got caught in the crossfire.

[chance52]

uh don't bother anymore, does who're likely to understand wont need to go to the six page. All that was needed to say was said in the opening. let them call him terrorist and put the all evil on him, after all ,its something so usual in our world (again), brand innocent people terrorists and evil because those who govern us and those who pretend to be saints claim so...am not nearly surprised really ! 

thats my final say in this matter. 

 

Um, what? You are saying it is usual for governments and "those who pretend to be saints" in our world to brand innocent people terrorists?

 

I really don't want to follow your train of logic down that particular rabbit hole but it does show why you are defending Anders so much now. I can't even imagine who you will use as an example to show an 'innocent' person that the world considers a terrorist nor do I want to.

[aTigerslunch]

Including, don't forget, blowing bubbles in chocolate milk or soda is fun, and crazy. 

[whanzephruseke]

Most likely because the supporters imply that the non-supporters are lesser to them in intelligence or maturity for not supporting Anders. 

And regardless of how complex the situation is, he is a terrorist. He fits the definition of the term.

 

Yeah, I love the guy, but he's definitely a terrorist.

 

uh don't bother anymore, does who're likely to understand wont need to go to the six page. All that was needed to say was said in the opening. let them call him terrorist and put the all evil on him, after all ,its something so usual in our world (again), brand innocent people terrorists and evil because those who govern us and those who pretend to be saints claim so...am not nearly surprised really ! 

thats my final say in this matter. 

 

I'm not sure I understand what you're trying to say since it's so garbled, but are you seriously calling Anders innocent?   

I have no words.

[OptionFour]

 

thats my final say in this matter. 

 

Aw. I guess everyone else should just go then, aye?

 

I do wonder if the weather is nicer though when you're on a horse that high.

If you spent more time trying to speak with people, and less time trying to speak at them, you might see why you haven't converted anyone to your way of thinking.

[aTigerslunch]

Optionfour, Im speaking at you, now conform, submit to the Qun.  

[SmilesJA]

Most likely because the supporters imply that the non-supporters are lesser to them in intelligence or maturity for not supporting Anders. 

And regardless of how complex the situation is, he is a terrorist. He fits the definition of the term.

 

Eh on the other side the detractors often say to supporters that they are blind fanboys/girls who refuse to listen to reason. From my point of view, I see him as a revolutionary and that's all I have to say on it.

[SmilesJA]

Aw. I guess everyone else should just go then, aye?

 

I do wonder if the weather is nicer though when you're on a horse that high.

If you spent more time trying to speak with people, and less time trying to speak at them, you might see why you haven't converted anyone to your way of thinking.

 

I could say the same thing to Anders detractors not on this forum, but other websites featuring flamewars about Anders.

[SerCambria358]

uh don't bother anymore, does who're likely to understand wont need to go to the six page. All that was needed to say was said in the opening. let them call him terrorist and put the all evil on him, after all ,its something so usual in our world (again), brand innocent people terrorists and evil because those who govern us and those who pretend to be saints claim so...am not nearly surprised really ! 

thats my final say in this matter. 

Lol and how exactly was he innocent? 

[aTigerslunch]

Anders....innocent?!   He killed the Divine and many others. Regardless of why he did it.

[whanzephruseke]

Eh on the other side the detractors often say to supporters that they are blind fanboys/girls who refuse to listen to reason.

 

There are extremists on both sides of any conflict--isn't that what DA2 is trying to teach us?

[Tarvesh]

The OP does make a few good points that people tend to gloss over when condemning Anders.

Anders didn't blow up the Chntry first thing. It took nearly a decade if witnessing abuse of power after base of power to push him to to that point (which is impressive when you have a spirit in your head constantly calling out 'kill all Templars!).

People also tend to forget that for ten years he did try peaceful solutions to stem the abuses of the Templars. He writes letters and manifestos and even appeals to the Gran Cleric to reign Meredith in.

And for people who want to call him a warmongering terrorist, warmongering terrorists don't spend ten years trying to find peaceful solutions.

Anders blowing up the Chantry was akin to a modern day airstrike on an area where a hostile target is known to be. Will there be civilian casualties? Yes. But that's the price if war.

I don't agree that he didn't intend to murder the Gran Cleric. That was ibviously his intention from the moment he set the plan into motion. You don't set that big of an explosive in a cathedral an think "well, maybe no one will be in it that day".

Anders knew what he was doing, but he isn't a warmonger. And I wouldn't call him a terrorists. Terrorists don't fight for freedom or liberty. I would label him a revolutionary. He did what he did for the Long term goal of freedom for his people.

But let's not call him innocent or pretend he didn't intend on murdering others to start a chain of events that would lead to war.

[LonewandererD]

"One man's revolutionist is another man's terrorist" - Gerald Seymour 1975

 

While he did write to the Grand Cleric it has been said by herself that many people over-estimate her power, she can keep Meredith under so long as Meredith is under the impression that she can actually do. Hell, she says this with the option of Anders being in your group. She may be considered useless by many and the representative of what Ander's believe to be the enemy but attacking her and her institution in such a way is akin to righting to your political representative to air your problems and then setting fire to their house when the law doesn't change the way you want. Also, the comment on the airstrike may be true in war times in this situation I feel it more akin to fire upon a ship with a peace delegate; it may be the enemy but it could possibly be a literal example of sinking your only hope for peace.

 

By his own admission Ander's goal was to remove all compromise and force actions to take place based solely on his judgement. He may have had good intentions, or a concept of the greater good, but that is no solace to the apprentices having to fight for their lives, the people watching the symbol of their faith destroyed and the peaceful parties thrust into a war that could never have been.

 

-D-

 

EDIT: Hope this doesn't come of as too harsh, I've had a long day and have to let off some steam. Sorry for any offence