137 réponses à ce sujet

[CronoDragoon]

My problem with ME2 is the lack of plot focus, you spend so much time doing all these recruitment and loyalty missions instead of focusing on the Collectors and it just gets boring, I don't care about the squadmates issues, I really don't, they are not important in the grand scheme of things.

 

Well, my problem is the grand scheme of things in BioWare games is usually boring. Comparatively, an insane amount of resources is spent building the characters, which is where I believe the good writing exists.

 

I think the last BW game that made me legitimately interested in the main plot was KOTOR, mainly because the main plot pretty much was about Revan anyway. If we take the main plot as the Star Forge stuff, then yeah kinda boring. DA2 would have had an interesting main plot if they had the time to do it right.

[AlanC9]

Happens to me. You might be "burned out" in regards to the series. I'm currently playing through the series for my buddy, who hates RPGs, for gamerscore and TA points, now I can't be hassled to play through them for myself again. It's not uncommon for that to happen. After I completed DA:O for the umpteenth time I didn't want to finish off my new dwarf noble or even start DAII again. Like someone else said, it's a problem for RPGs, leaving and then trying to come back to that character. You forget what your were doing, your equipment and build, etc. 

 

What's the advantage of having gamerscore and TA points, anyway?

 

I agree about having trouble leaving and coming back to RPGs. I'm actually starting to think that DAI is a bit over optimal length for me.

[RZIBARA]

I actually thought you were spamming threads with spiderman references.

Im comparing my life to what the discussions are and yet here you are coming in my thread with spam

[Vermigs]

What's the advantage of having gamerscore and TA points, anyway?

 

I agree about having trouble leaving and coming back to RPGs. I'm actually starting to think that DAI is a bit over optimal length for me.

 

Nothing, it's like crack really. We pop achievements for the sake of popping achievements.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

My problem with ME2 is the lack of plot focus, you spend so much time doing all these recruitment and loyalty missions instead of focusing on the Collectors and it just gets boring, I don't care about the squadmates issues, I really don't, they are not important in the grand scheme of things. I was told I was building a team of professional's who can get the job done, but this so called group aren't professional enough to put their problems to the back of their minds and concentrate on the mission like you would expect actual professionals to do. 

 

Honestly, the gif below describes accurately how I feel about the squad and their daddy issues. 

 

 

What a useless bunch of "professionals". 

 

I always dismiss arguments about the 'daddy issues'. Many of them legitimate problems that can have disastrous consequences that each squadmate has to worry about:

 

Miranda's sister and her adoptive family are in legitimate danger from a father that she is very justly against. Is the mission that pressing that you'd tell your subordinates to 'deal' with the abduction of their sibling back home and expect them to not be affected by it?

 

Thane's son is on the brink of following his father into his admittedly dark and damaging line of work, and is worried about his son's life decisions in his absence.

Would you feel that your son following into your footsteps as a high-level assassin in a very highly dangerous world where you've made lot's of enemies was a choice that you could live with your son making, especially since its an ignorant and uninformed one?

 

Would you want to know that there's a highly dangerous sexual predator that is very difficult to track and even more difficult to confront is loose when you could have helped her mother stop her?

 

How would I expect actual professionals to conduct themselves? Clearly, competently, and efficiently. Most of them do this. However, said professionals are also human as well, and subject to the same problems and issues that arise. When I was in Afghanistan, our CO's daughter was in the hospital for leukemia treatments, and whenever she was going through her sessions of chemo, our CO was of course personally distracted. To make matters worse for him, his wife and his sister were also in a car accident that left his wife with several broken vertabrae, and his sister with a serious concussion. He never let it affect the mission (and the people on the crew don't hold up the mission), but it was pretty obvious his head was somewhere else for the duration of the tour. Fortunately for him, our detachment came home 7 months early in our 15 month deployment. Being a professional does not make one immune to the problems inherent of being a human being.

[von uber]

Im comparing my life to what the discussions are and yet here you are coming in my thread with spam

 

Well, I did just learn how to climb walls a few months ago

 

Well I got to be with Gwen, but that's in real life, not a video game... sooooo

 

Yeah, web slinging is so much more enjoyable

 

Well found out about what my parents past, killed some nut called Electro, beat up Harry Osborn, and watched the love of my life die.

 

wait what?

 

Or, spam. But whatever floats your boat.
 

[RZIBARA]

Or, spam. But whatever floats your boat.
 

 

lol did you seriously just go searching for all my posts? That's pretty sad.

[DeinonSlayer]

@MassivelyEffective0730
An excellent post, and a big reason why the pre-emptive extermination of our own noncombatant population in the course of the Reaper war would be counterproductive. It's akin to killing Oriana and Kolyat to ensure Miranda and Thane don't have to worry about them anymore.

[KaiserShep]

@MassivelyEffective0730
An excellent post, and a big reason why the pre-emptive extermination of our own noncombatant population in the course of the Reaper war would be counterproductive. It's akin to killing Oriana and Kolyat to ensure Miranda and Thane don't have to worry about them anymore.

Or keep them hostage, like Homer Simpson did to Bart's pet turtle to make sure he wins his hockey game.

[Mordokai]

Or keep them hostage, like Homer Simpson did to Bart's pet turtle to make sure he wins his hockey game.

 

You know we've fallen pretty low when we start holding Homer Simpson as some sort of ideal.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

@MassivelyEffective0730
An excellent post, and a big reason why the pre-emptive extermination of our own noncombatant population in the course of the Reaper war would be counterproductive. It's akin to killing Oriana and Kolyat to ensure Miranda and Thane don't have to worry about them anymore.

 

I also took care to show when it's in order of preference in my post, so I'll shoot you down where you're going. There comes a point where transformational leadership (like I described) needs to give way for a more transactional leadership that I've advocated in different posts. What I've given in an example of is the team style, or even country-club style of management. No one style is going to be useful for every situation. Check out the managerial grid model for leadership styles. In the Reaper war, I'd expect to adopt a very dictatorial style, where results are the only goal. Maximizing team functioning outside the battlefield isn't going to maximize my efficiency or results. I don't have the time or spare energy to devote to the actualization of my peers, subordinates, and civilians. I need to maximize everything to the focus of stopping the Reapers and winning the war. Said professionals aren't going to do their job as efficiently when the stakes are higher and their own investments are in danger. That's going to hinder their capability, because the new threat demands a new, emotionless, dispassionate, brutal, ruthless, and downright cruel perspective. That's when humanity needs to clock out and become something else. If my CO was behaving like that in a situation of say, an invasion of the United States by a foreign force where every bit of our resources need to be dedicated to the fight, then I'd be just as quickly admonishing my CO to get his head out of ass and do what he has to do. Survival of the state is precedent. The people are not the state. Their concerns are tertiary.

 

Yes, your humanity is what you fight for, but your humanity isn't going to fight well. You can reclaim it later. Now you need to be a machine, just as much a machine as the Reapers.

 

Outside immediate crew concerns with family (said crew are who I want to be on my side), pre-emptive extermination of our non-combatant population has only one flaw that I can think of; it lets the Reapers come onto us faster. That said, keeping them alive for the purpose of being meat shields would be disastrous as it also empowers the Reapers. 

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Or keep them hostage, like Homer Simpson did to Bart's pet turtle to make sure he wins his hockey game.

 

Why keep them alive at all? They're a drain on resources. Resources that aren't being spent on fighting or supporting the fight. That's intolerable.

[KaiserShep]

You know we've fallen pretty low when we start holding Homer Simpson as some sort of ideal.

One could do a lot worse, like Peter Griffin.

[KaiserShep]

Why keep them alive at all? They're a drain on resources. Resources that aren't being spent on fighting or supporting the fight. That's intolerable.

I don't think the Doctor would approve of this sort of ideology.

[Mordokai]

One could do a lot worse, like Peter Griffin.

 

Low blow...

[MassivelyEffective0730]

I don't think the Doctor would approve of this sort of ideology.

 

I don't always approve of the Doctor's ideology. I absolutely believe he made the right call in the Time War (until he made a new option). 

 

I disagree with his pacifism and his inability to deviate from a moral code that involves punishing those who would willingly end the Daleks, the greatest threat to the DW Omniverse. He's one man. And he's not always right. I love the Doctor, and when he is sufficiently motivated, he really is terrifying. But most of the time, he is idealistic to a fault.

[Jorji Costava]

Yes, your humanity is what you fight for, but your humanity isn't going to fight well. You can reclaim it later. Now you need to be a machine, just as much a machine as the Reapers.

 

Outside immediate crew concerns with family (said crew are who I want to be on my side), pre-emptive extermination of our non-combatant population has only one flaw that I can think of; it lets the Reapers come onto us faster. That said, keeping them alive for the purpose of being meat shields would be disastrous as it also empowers the Reapers. 

 

Well, here we go again . . .

 

Very quickly, the policy of preemptively exterminating non-combatants during the war seems no less irrational than a policy of preemptively exterminating all non-doctors during the outbreak of a plague: "Well, your average soldier doesn't know a damn thing about cell biology, so he's useless in the fight against this disease (except maybe as a test subject). They're not pulling their weight in the war against the plague, and that's unacceptable! So we might as well exterminate them and everyone else who isn't a medical researcher before they have a chance to become vectors for the plague." That seems to defeat the whole point of having doctors; similarly, having your soldiers exterminate your own civilians seems to defeat the whole point of having soldiers.

[CptFalconPunch]

Well, my problem is the grand scheme of things in BioWare games is usually boring. Comparatively, an insane amount of resources is spent building the characters, which is where I believe the good writing exists.

 

I think the last BW game that made me legitimately interested in the main plot was KOTOR, mainly because the main plot pretty much was about Revan anyway. If we take the main plot as the Star Forge stuff, then yeah kinda boring. DA2 would have had an interesting main plot if they had the time to do it right.

I never got really invested in the kotor plot, since all you do is hear about revan, hearing and nothing else. Then OH its you! So what? Who cares, nothing changes. The only thing that could be interesting about this is that you're a star wars fan and perceive it as something amazing when jedi are proven to be sith. Which happens all the fricken time. 

 

Compare that to Mass effect where the stakes are higher and you're more engaged, you're not a chosen one, you're the right person in the right place. And don't tell me that when you found out about sovereign you didn't get pumped up.

 

Anyway, what I've gathered from the opinions of people is that some prefer a simple, straight out story that doesn't have you learning anything new, or having you think. In that case, you don't care about the plot.

Some other people that care about the story and seek out its meaning and like being challenged and engrossed in it have a different kind of experience. And that is where ME2 fails. 

 

Games like half life can pull both greatly. You're either a simple scientist killing alliens and humans,

Or gordon freeman, a member of a failed experiment involving enslaved alien races and their escape from their horrors, teleportation, a military conspiracy cover up and a mysterious figure with the ability to manipulate time and space, watching everything you do.

[DeinonSlayer]

I'll have to get back to you, Massively. I will say I can see where you're coming from; all moral considerations aside, I still question if it's warranted, feasible, and economical in this situation, though. I'll have a more detailed response here later and a PM to run by you.

[von uber]

lol did you seriously just go searching for all my posts? That's pretty sad.

 

Took about 3 minutes.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Well, here we go again . . .

 

Very quickly, the policy of preemptively exterminating non-combatants during the war seems no less irrational than a policy of preemptively exterminating all non-doctors during the outbreak of a plague: "Well, your average soldier doesn't know a damn thing about cell biology, so he's useless in the fight against this disease (except maybe as a test subject). They're not pulling their weight in the war against the plague, and that's unacceptable! So we might as well exterminate them and everyone else who isn't a medical researcher before they have a chance to become vectors for the plague." That seems to defeat the whole point of having doctors; similarly, having your soldiers exterminate your own civilians seems to defeat the whole point of having soldiers.

 

Not really. The purpose of having Soldiers, is to ensure the survival of the state. Not the survival of it's citizens. 

 

I'm not here to protect noncombatants. I'm here to kill Reapers. See what I'm getting at? You can always make more citizens with the surviving Soldiers. This probably comes from a different perspective of Soldiers. I, as a Soldier, have no interest in protecting the American people. I'll say it. I didn't join to serve. I joined for entirely selfish reasons that center around me. But that's only a partial part of the argument. To me, the point of Soldiers in the war is to kill the Reapers. Much as the same in your next example.

 

That said, that actually makes sense. Kill the food, the plague has no way to spread. It's perfectly logical to me. It's like the Halo's in, well, Halo. Starve the flood by killing everyone. The flood all die and you repopulate the galaxy with the survivors. As I said above about the Soldiers, the point of Doctors and medical researchers isn't to heal the sick. It's to kill the plague. Stopping the plague is more important than protecting or healing the people who have it. Stopping the Reapers is more important than protecting people (namely, the people who are of no economic value to your effort). Don't kill everyone of course. You need to categorize people on what skills they have and what use they are to both the war effort and to rebuilding society. People with actual valuable and technical abilities such as architecture, engineering, horticulture, etc. (I'm assuming you get what I mean) are the people who are prioritized for survival, while the more extraneous ones in the positions that aren't so valuable or necessary to the continuity of civilization or of the race for that matter (no offense to you, but philosophers, painters, writers, liberal artists, etc. don't have any technical valuable skill to give to society when you look at it. There will always be more philosophers, whereas if you lose the few plumbers, you're kinda screwed in that department. That's not to say that they'll all die, but they tend to have less of an actual physical utility).

 

It's the litmus test given in KotOR to an extent, the one on Kashyyyk; You, the general, have the opportunity to destroy the enemies army. Doing so would mean putting your city in the path of their invasion and lead to massive civilian casualties. You have several options available; hold your army back and let the city be destroyed while you trash the headquarters element of their military (sending them into chaos), reinforce and protect the city, letting the enemy know that you are aware of their weakness, causing them to withdraw, but at the cost of drawing the war out, evacuating the city (an ideal option, except that you can't evacuate that many people without the enemy getting fuzzy to what's going on), or attacking the enemy head on and risking your own force to actively protect the city. Granted, you aren't attacking your own city, but the implication is that holding out will decisively end your opponents war prospects completely. 

 

The military doesn't operate on litmus tests, and neither do Government agencies. To the former, all they care about is PT scores. To the latter, they care about connections, a language degree, and how much of a conservative WASP you are. And I wish I could say I'm exaggerating, but I am being dead serious about both of these.

[RZIBARA]

Took about 3 minutes.

 

The fact that you did so is still pretty sad.

[AlanC9]

Nothing, it's like crack really. We pop achievements for the sake of popping achievements.

 

Except that you can outsource the actual smoking to someone else, eh?You're running up achievements for your friend, right?

[von uber]

The fact that you did so is still pretty sad.

 

If you say so