39 réponses à ce sujet

[Sjeff]

Hello there,

 

I am fairly new here but i had some question about shapeshifting in dragon age: origins.

Yes i know is broken, i don't care. 

 

Firstly i read somewhere that it was glitched, meaning that spellpower didn't raise

the other stats in their form. Is that still true or is it fixed?

 

My second question is, what does influence the forms as in, attack speed, damage, runes, armor,shield

etc etc.

 

Thanks in advance

[Mike3207]

Spellpower raises STR/DEX/CON for a shapeshifter, but the scaling is a bit slow, and damage is based off a shapeshifter's strength. Bear increases strength by about .2 for each point of spellpower, spider by .1. Swarm carries over your mage's stats as is.With spellpower raising all the stats, a pure magic shapeshifter can reach very high physical resistance in shifted form.

 

I'll admit I'm not sure about what causes damage with Swarm. I've heard conflicting information that's it's either Strength or Spellpower.

 

Any spell cast by another mage will carry over when you are shapeshifted, i.e. Haste, Heroic Defense etc.

 

Any defensive gear will carry over, as well as set bonuses. Most offensive won't, but I think critical will.

 

Resistance runes like Dwemer or Hale will carry over, any other rune won't.

 

I'll also add the link to a guide that covers shapeshifting.

 

http://www.sorcerers...ead.php?t=51020

[Sjeff]

Ah thank you, i will give that guide a read.

 

One quick question though, what about the attackspeed. Will daggers improve the attack speed of bear form  for example or is just a weapon with high attack stat better.

[Sjeff]

Never mind already found it in the link you gave me. thanks again

[Mike3207]

I always use staff with Spider/Bear. It gives incredible armor penetration. Staffs also help with your magic/spellpower score.

 

As for Swarm, you might use daggers though simply to add on additional equipped runes. Overall, I don't think daggers help do additional damage. Attack speed-I have Wynne cast Haste.

 

EDIT-One thing I was able to confirm last night was that both +critical and +critical damage seem to transfer over while shifted. Battleaxes work best, and of the battle axes Dragonbone Cleaver is best geared to do critical damage.+5% critical chance, +10% critical damage.You will lose something switching from staffs-autohit capability and your Dex/Con will be about 3-4 points less. Still, if you want to do more damage with your shifted attacks it's really something to look at.

[Mike3207]

I have been looking at if there's a way for a mage shapeshifter to do enough damage through critical attacks so that you don't need to rely on strength so much. A mage equipped with a Battleaxe, High Regard of House Dace, and the Wicked Oath-supplemented by a single bard singing Song of Courage-can reach about 16% chance to critical. After that, add in items like the Dragonbone Cleaver and Cailan's Gauntlets to increase critical damage. The only time you really run into problems is when you meet high defense foes like spiders or golems-you will miss a lot.

 

To start out, you equip the Balanced Greatsword.If you want to go beyond that weapon without pumping strength, you will need to put 1 point in AW at 14.Equip House Dace and Wicked Oath. Maybe after the Mage Tower and equipping some +items, you might have sufficient strength to equip the Warden Commander Armor and +15 crit damage.I've got one mage with 38 base strength, but I might see if it's possible to go full magic without adding any strength using the above strategy.

 

EDIT-Veshialle is best for my purposes.+2 strength, as much critical as a battleaxe, and both critical chance and critical damage modifiers.Damage does go down a bit with a handaxe, but it has a critical chance of 16% with House Dace and no Song of Courage. I may be able to swap out Dace for Spellward once I get Song of Courage.There doesn't seem to be a comparable weapon in Awakening, so I just might keep it.

 

I'm currently looking at a Veshialle/Rose's Thorn Combination.It'll mean I have to reach 30 STR/DEX to equip both weapons, but that's not as hard as it seems. You can get to 20 by equipping +2 to all stats items and going to the mage tower, and you might be able to get the rest of the way with equipment and putting the tome points into strength. I definitely think dual wield is the best way to do critical damage. You lose a few points in equipping daggers, but you should make it up with the increase chance to critical. The only time you might look at a staff with shifting is if you're facing high defense foes like revenants or golems.

 

One thing I'm looking at when i make it to Awakening-will the critical hit/damage runes carry over when shifted.If they do, you could reach all sorts of damage potential when you stack them on weapons.

[Mike3207]

I've been looking at a way for critical chance/critical damage to make up for a shapeshifter mage inability to do damage without increasing strength. The problem really is attack, you have to get to the point where STR/Dex will increase attack enough that you won't miss with every attack. Spider has good growth for Dex, Bear good growth for strength. In theory, a full magic shapeshifter should be able to increase attack by enough to be able to get to a good hit ability without pumping strength.it's just going to take longer than I originally thought.
 
The more strength you do have however, the more damage you'll do with a critical. i remember my spider doing a 90 point damage attack in the Dust Town hideout with a mage that had 38 strength.I still think it's worth it to increase strength, but I'd like to do it a lesser extent if possible.I was trying Dual Wield in Origins, but I think I might postpone that into Awakening. You just lose a lot of potential damage by equipping a dagger.
 
The next thing I'm going to look at is gear that increases attack,maybe even over gear that increases critical damage/critical chance.The sooner you can get to a high attack score, the sooner you might be able to make that critical attack actually hit.
 
EDIT-area spells seem to carry over after your shapeshift. Like I can cast a Glyph of warding, and my Bear can take advantage of the defense boost as long as it remains in the Glyph. i'd imagine it's the same for area spells like Earthquake and Spellbloom.
 
Also, Swarm doesn't seem to take advantage of critical attacks. It seems like that is restricted to Bear and Spider.


EDIT 2-I was able to do a critical attack during a Overwhelm with Spider.That was a bit of a surprise to me.I had always thought Overwhelm only did normal attacks.i don't expect that will happen a lot, but it was definitely a bit of a surprise.

I've got Critical chance up to about 30% right now.2 songs of courage and high regard, mostly.I also went with Veshialle that has about a 10% chance to do a critical.It's a option to add Rose's Thorn, but I'd have to add some points to dex.

My attack problems lessened considerably after I got the bonus from the AW spec.I'll still miss occasionally against high def enemies, but nothing like it was before.

Finally, not sure if it was a bug or not, but my Bear rage carried over to my mage form.I had just started the Rage and transformed back, and my mage carried that +10 strength for nearly half a minute after.

Modifié par Mike3207, 24 mai 2014 - 01:26 .

[Mike3207]

So a new update- i had done pretty well with a significant increase in strength, so i was curious how a pure mage would fare under the same conditions. Leliana and Zevran with Song of Courage, Shale with Stone Aura, shapeshifter mage with +2 to all stats gear.Here's the numbers for my 100 spellpower mage, buffed by Shale.

Spider:

Str-31
Dex-51
Con-58
Mental R-60
Physical R-100(2 hale runes)
385/385
285/285
Armor-25
Defense-91
Spellpower-100
Damage-35.7-greatsword Starfang
Critical Chance-26.45%



Bear:

Str-44
Dex-45
Con-67
MR-60
PR-100
430/430
275/275
Armor-35
Defense-85
100 S/26.45
Damage-47.1

So really, you can do significant damage with either a pure mage or or a strength mage. I actually achieved triple digits in damage in Bear Form with the Pure Mage on a critical attack.The main difference between the two in my estimation is that the strength shapeshifter will always do good normal damage, but pure mage is no slouch either.Just have the right group, have good gear to help the base stats, and you're golden.

EDIT 1-In case my point wasn't made clear, the shapeshifter research on the wikia only measures stat growth through spellpower.It assumes a shapeshifter without any gear at all, just measuring the impact spellpower grows a shapeshifter's form.I'd say using items a full magic shapeshifter can have 35 strength for spider by the end of Origins, 50 strength for Bear.There's a few ways to increase strength through gear in Awakening,60 strength is not out of the ballpark for both PC and console.

Modifié par Mike3207, 08 juin 2014 - 04:36 .

[TBastian]

You forgot to mention one other thing that makes a pure mage shapeshifter unique - massive spell damage.

 

There is a school of thought that maintains that Shapeshifters aren't broken because there is exists one way to play it that makes it OP. Consider that pure mage Shapeshifters are ideal nukers because almost all your points are going into magic anyway, so one very effective playstyle revolves around not relying on allies and focusing on elemental damage primal spells (Fireball, Flame Blast, Cone of Cold, Shock, Inferno, Blizzard, Tempest) plus a few defensive spells like Heal, Forcefield, Arcane Shield, Rock Armor, Mana Clash. The goal is to nuke everything down and then shift forms to finish off the critically wounded or to use non-magical attacks on bosses. There's only a very small number of boss-level creatures not immune to shapeshifter abilities (broodmothers, dragons, revenants) . Everything else (branka, ser cauthrien, gaxkang) is either CHOMP-able or Mana Clash-able. Combined with Spirit Healer a pure mage Shapeshifter played this way becomes a walking disabler/bosskiller/nuker/tank/support character all in one.

 

I've fiddled with characters like these many times and the main reason why Shapeshifter works best is because:

a) Blood Mage skills don't really work well when you are constantly stealing aggro from your warriors - my nuker mages have 40+% dodge/spell resistance and high defense/armor from gear and they still needs to chug potions/use healing spells occasionally (being able to heal to full with just poultice use contributes a lot to what makes this build tanky). Blood Mage skill options on bosses is also limited - you can replace/recreate Blood Wound's effect in a lot of ways, but double Overwhelms +web/slam/spit on bosses like Ser Cauthrien while all your other allies are attacking her so she dies without ever recovering is just golden.

b ) Arcane Warriors aren't really ideal for nuking (massive fatigue) and mages can already achieve extreme survivability with gear/buffs even without Shimmering Shield/Fade Shroud (thanks to dodge items, buffs, heal, forcefield, etc). If you go Blood Mage/Arcane Warrior you are sacrificing Spirit Healer and a valuable arsenal of powerful support spells.

c) Shapeshifter abilities are available earlier than all other spec abilities, so this build can actually tackle difficult content and have an easier time than any other spec. This is especially true considering how abilities like Blood Wound/Shimmering Shield are only available at level 14. A Shapeshifter at the same level would have used the ability point to get the extremely useful Group HealSpirit Healer ability, among dozens of other useful choices. Double Overwhelms are available as early as level 12, and you can use the Swam to kite Branka, revenants, or other annoying bosses as early as level 10.

 

In a sense there isn't really an ideal nuking spec, but Shapeshifter simply adds more to the table. You can argue that the Shapeshifter in these scenario is merely riding on the sheer OP-ness of the pure mage, and you'd be correct, but that doesn't change how it's the ideal spec choice.

[DarthGizka]

Very nice summary, lots of inspiration in there. Ajira just turned 14 and I have half a mind to pick shapeshifting instead of AW (= 'armour wearing'), using greater balms for avenging Ser Otto and for dealing with Archie, in lieu of Wade's and Corruption... Could have used the swarm form a couple of times already, for example to lure the dragon in the elven ruins to better kiting ground, with sufficient space. That beast is bloody fast!

 

For now I'll leave the specialisation open until I'm forced to commit one way or the other, since spell points are scarce and my shopping list long... Things are a bit tight because the plan includes Entropic Death this time, which means an extra expenditure of six spell points. Or two, if I make Morrigan or Wynne learn Death Cloud.

 

Also, none of my mages has ever had Spell Might and Mana Clash. Choices, choices...

[Mike3207]

Well, for me the one point in Arcane warrior is worth it.You take it for the Attack Boost and for the ability to equip any weapons.Both are needed if you plan on switching from staffs to regular weapons and you don't want to put a lot of points into strength on your ability levels up.Fatigue-there are runes in Awakening that can reduce fatigue.5% for each, as much as 15% for one suit of armor.

You do get 4-5 spell tomes, depending on whether or not you do the deal with the desire demon.I think it's worth it to pick it up, but you don't get a chance to get much with the 4th specialization unless you save those tomes.

Darth, do let me have the numbers on shifter attack speed when you have the chance.I think Zevran with all Attack Speed boosts and Spider Form are just about neck and neck as far as attack speed. I have killed dragons with Swarm, but just don't run out of mana.I remember the time I had my shifted Swarm run out of mana, then my shifted bear, then i finally got killed by the dragon in mage form.

One more thing-you actually have two chances to achieve Criticals with Bear Form.One from the Slam, and one from your ordinary chance to do Criticals with a non-staff weapon.One interesting thing i found out recently about Death Hex.You actually have a lesser chance to have a successful Hex if you have a high critical rate.I think it's 100% minus your critical rate, so a high rate will mean a lesser chance to get the Hex.

[DarthGizka]

Measuring actual attack speed and damage (by making toons bash each other and analysing a sufficient number of hits) isn't in the cards for now, there's not enough play time for the required programming and experimentation. However, the existing script can be extended easily to include any stats value that can be queried directly, like PROPERTY_ATTRIBUTE_ATTACK_SPEED_MODIFIER.

The toolset wiki has a page listing the symbolic names of these stats. Have a look at those names, to see whether there are any others that look tasty and should be included. Other stats could be added as well, as long as they can be queried directly by calling some engine function instead of requiring complicated measurements (in case one of our toolset gurus is reading this and has a suggestion). Then I can adapt the script, run the test series and post the result in the pet stats thread.

The last test series covered these properties:
 

PROPERTY_DEPLETABLE_HEALTH
PROPERTY_ATTRIBUTE_REGENERATION_HEALTH_COMBAT
PROPERTY_DEPLETABLE_MANA_STAMINA
PROPERTY_ATTRIBUTE_REGENERATION_STAMINA_COMBAT

PROPERTY_ATTRIBUTE_ATTACK
PROPERTY_ATTRIBUTE_AP
PROPERTY_ATTRIBUTE_DAMAGE_BONUS

PROPERTY_ATTRIBUTE_DEFENSE
PROPERTY_ATTRIBUTE_ARMOR
PROPERTY_ATTRIBUTE_DISPLACEMENT

PROPERTY_ATTRIBUTE_RESISTANCE_MENTAL
PROPERTY_ATTRIBUTE_RESISTANCE_PHYSICAL
52 // PROPERTY_ATTRIBUTE_SPELLRESISTANCE_

PROPERTY_ATTRIBUTE_DAMAGE_RESISTANCE_FIRE
PROPERTY_ATTRIBUTE_DAMAGE_RESISTANCE_COLD
PROPERTY_ATTRIBUTE_DAMAGE_RESISTANCE_ELEC
PROPERTY_ATTRIBUTE_DAMAGE_RESISTANCE_SPIRIT
PROPERTY_ATTRIBUTE_DAMAGE_RESISTANCE_NATURE

[Salaya]

Maybe this is a newbie question but I'm curious about what I've read here: the "always hit" natural to all staffs carries to the shapeshifter forms? A mage that transforms into a bear wearing a staff will always hit his enemies?

[DarthGizka]

Yes, the staff's auto-hit and high armour penetration carry over to the shifted form. It's under 'Mechanics' in the Shapeshifting 101 linked by Mike.

 

That would probably make spider and bear ideal revenant-killers...

[Googleness]

Shapeshifter is horrible.

by the time you get with your bear mosquito form to the mobs the archers and other spell casters will kill them all.

[DarthGizka]

If you use a Glock as a club then you may well complain about lack of punch and reach... But this doesn't mean that the gun lacks either.

[Mike3207]

Actually, Swarm is ideal against the archers and spell casters.Swarm has immunity to normal missiles, and any spell resistance/dodge carries over.It's not hard for a mage to have dodge/spell resistance in the 40%-60% range, so it's not as easy as all that to hit mages.

Yes, autohit still applies with a staff.I still stick with a staff against high defense foes like golems, spiders, and revenants, but anything else gets a regular weapon for the chance to critical.

On Swarm, the guide says that a Swarm's Dodge doesn't stack with dodge items.I suspect there are two checks involved-first for the Swarm dodge of 40%, second for any equipped dodge on the mage.

[Mike3207]

Measuring actual attack speed and damage (by making toons bash each other and analysing a sufficient number of hits) isn't in the cards for now, there's not enough play time for the required programming and experimentation. However, the existing script can be extended easily to include any stats value that can be queried directly, like PROPERTY_ATTRIBUTE_ATTACK_SPEED_MODIFIER.

The toolset wiki has a page listing the symbolic names of these stats. Have a look at those names, to see whether there are any others that look tasty and should be included. Other stats could be added as well, as long as they can be queried directly by calling some engine function instead of requiring complicated measurements (in case one of our toolset gurus is reading this and has a suggestion). Then I can adapt the script, run the test series and post the result in the pet stats thread.

The last test series covered these properties:
 
 

PROPERTY_DEPLETABLE_HEALTH
PROPERTY_ATTRIBUTE_REGENERATION_HEALTH_COMBAT
PROPERTY_DEPLETABLE_MANA_STAMINA
PROPERTY_ATTRIBUTE_REGENERATION_STAMINA_COMBAT

PROPERTY_ATTRIBUTE_ATTACK
PROPERTY_ATTRIBUTE_AP
PROPERTY_ATTRIBUTE_DAMAGE_BONUS

PROPERTY_ATTRIBUTE_DEFENSE
PROPERTY_ATTRIBUTE_ARMOR
PROPERTY_ATTRIBUTE_DISPLACEMENT

PROPERTY_ATTRIBUTE_RESISTANCE_MENTAL
PROPERTY_ATTRIBUTE_RESISTANCE_PHYSICAL
52 // PROPERTY_ATTRIBUTE_SPELLRESISTANCE_

PROPERTY_ATTRIBUTE_DAMAGE_RESISTANCE_FIRE
PROPERTY_ATTRIBUTE_DAMAGE_RESISTANCE_COLD
PROPERTY_ATTRIBUTE_DAMAGE_RESISTANCE_ELEC
PROPERTY_ATTRIBUTE_DAMAGE_RESISTANCE_SPIRIT
PROPERTY_ATTRIBUTE_DAMAGE_RESISTANCE_NATURE

I suppose add melee crit modifier and attack speed modifier to the above.Movement speed modifier as well.Thanks for everything.

EDIT 1-Drop the crit modifier.I'd say there is a 99% chance that neither the mage nor the shifted forms have any critical chance without equipment/talents kicking in.

One other thing-i think the only time shifted attack speed changes is when the Bear gets its Master Shapeshifter form.Movement speed can change when you use a Swift Salve or the Haste Spell however. I hope you can use the modifier to figure out what it is though.

Modifié par Mike3207, 15 juin 2014 - 05:52 .

[dragonflight288]

If you're an arcane warrior, it replaces strength with magic, so as a shapeshifter, you suddenly become much stronger in your individual forms if you're an arcane warrior as well. 

[Mike3207]

If you're an arcane warrior, it replaces strength with magic, so as a shapeshifter, you suddenly become much stronger in your individual forms if you're an arcane warrior as well.

That's true enough-Combat Magic scales with spellpower as well. My issues with Combat Magic have always been the high fatigue cost(-50% fatigue) and there's a bit of overlap with the melee combat situations.Do you use the Arcane Warrior sustains in human form, or shift into the forms?

My feeling on it is that it depends on the situation. There's not a lot better at dealing with groups then Swarm. The linked thread in the first post says Swarm will actually outdamage Inferno in Awakening, but I haven't run the numbers myself. Tough foes with special attacks like Overwhelm-Bear or Spider.Other situations-Arcane Warrior.

A shapeshifter can actually approach a lot of the numbers you reach with Shimmering Shield. Both mental and physical keeps increasing as spellpower slowly scales a shifter's STR/DEX/CON.You might actually go over 100 in some stats by the finish of Awakening. Elemental resistance-there's a belt that gives you 50% for almost all, and immunity runes can add 25% for each armor rune at Paragon. The advantage of SS is that it lets you do that for a minimal fatigue cost and spell cost, without using any gear.

EDIT-The guide actually says as damaging as Inferno, not more than.I had to correct that.

Modifié par Mike3207, 28 juin 2014 - 04:28 .

[Mike3207]

I did briefly look at what the sort of weapons you could utilize if you were to pick either Spirit Healer/Blood Mage as the second spec, assuming a Pure Mage playthrough. Assuming 20 strength, likely Chasind Flatbade, +1 AP and critical chance. At 22 strength, you could equip a Steel Battleaxe, which would give you 1 rune slot. I think Steel Battleaxe might give you a bit more, but your choice really.

The one thing you are dealing with those other specs is a limited number of crit chance/damage gear, as well as runes.You can still get damage on a critical, but a lower chance to critical and a bit less crit damage. I still think AW is better, but I thought I'd at least look into it.

Mana regeneration-it's a bit more important than I originally thought. You do turn back into a squishy mage when you run out of mana, so you definitely want a respectable mana regen rate for both AW and SS. I've currently got 6 mana regen on items-Veshialle and Andruil's Blessing for Bear/Spider, 10.5 with Cailan's Arms/Andrui's Blessing for Swarm.You do get a bit more regen on console, though.


Spells-I've been looking to combine Destruction and Entropy.I've mostly been looking at the Immobilize spells in Entropy. The Paralyze Line, the Glyphs, and the Hex Line. I like Death Hex because it gives you a lot of criticals while shifted, maybe as many as 4-6 depending on what your movement speed is.Paralyze is a very quick way to freeze foes. Cone of Cold and Petrify can both shatter foes, but I haven't tried using those combos a lot yet. I've given Petrify to Wynne, i can take a lot of foes out quickly with it.It does get resisted though.

Spells to watch out-Dispel Magic and Anti-magic Burst.Both these will break your shapeshift instantly.I got AMB thrown at me by the Arcane warrior with Spellweaver. In the Blood mage hideout, I think I once had 2 Dispels thrown at me, breaking both Spider and then Bear.You definitely want a few ways to take down mages ASAP.I've set Leliana to use Arrow of Slaying on mages, but it definitely takes some time.

[Rillifane]

Actually, Swarm is ideal against the archers and spell casters.Swarm has immunity to normal missiles, and any spell resistance/dodge carries over.It's not hard for a mage to have dodge/spell resistance in the 40%-60% range, so it's not as easy as all that to hit mages.

Yes, autohit still applies with a staff.I still stick with a staff against high defense foes like golems, spiders, and revenants, but anything else gets a regular weapon for the chance to critical.

On Swarm, the guide says that a Swarm's Dodge doesn't stack with dodge items.I suspect there are two checks involved-first for the Swarm dodge of 40%, second for any equipped dodge on the mage.

 

The Guide is probably wrong. The dodge bonus does seem to stack, test it yourself.

 

I've successfully created a nearly invincilbe flying swarm(100% dodge, almost 100% spell resistance), the only weakness is nature immune monsters and auto-hit non-magic ability(like ogre ram, spider spit). Even facing tough boss with some auto hit abilities, I can still apply hit and run strategy to chew it down. Remember the swarm is immune to knockdown,grab,overwhelm.....and move super fast. Equip with mana/stamina items to regenerate the swarm health.

 

It's a pity the most people doesn't realize how powerful the shifter could be before give it a real try.

[Mike3207]

One thing I'd definitely be interested in finding out-if anyone is able to test it in Awakening-is whether the Intensifying runes that add critical chance/critical damage to melee weapons-carry over while you're in shifted form. In general, critical chance/damage do carry over on equipment, but I've been unable to verify if they do on runes in Awakening.I'd also like to know what other runes might carry over shifted as well with the Awakening weapon and armor runes.I'm currently without a PS3 that plays games, so it's not something I'll be able to find out myself in the near future.

[Vazgen]

A bit of a necropost, but how does Death Hex work with a shifted mage who uses a staff? Staves can't score critical hits so your critical chance is 0, correct? Will it make all attacks critical?

[Mike3207]

A bit of a necropost, but how does Death Hex work with a shifted mage who uses a staff? Staves can't score critical hits so your critical chance is 0, correct? Will it make all attacks critical?

No, staffs will give the autohit capability but eliminate any chance of criticals. I think staffs are most useful levels 7-14 when you have a low percentage chance to get criticals. 

 

Death Hex gives you a 100% critical chance subtracted by your current base critical rate. It's more effective with a low base critical rate.