359 réponses à ce sujet

[Excella Gionne]

Engaging in wild speculation here, but I'm thinking there would be an initial HUGE surge in the krogan population -- After all, they will have been decimated in the reaper war along with everyone else -- but things would even out after awhile. The krogan don't want a repeat of history any more than anyone else, and Eve will keep preaching her wisdom to make sure that history doesn't repeat.

Wrex said he doesn't even want to know what other worse things Salarians can cook up besides the Genophage. Worse case scenario, blow up the Mass Relay...

[SporkFu]

Wrex said he doesn't even want to know what other worse things Salarians can cook up besides the Genophage. Worse case scenario, blow up the Mass Relay...

There's that too, but would the salarians risk everyone else in the galaxy letting them get away with that? The krogan are heroes now, and they've generated a lot of goodwill for themselves for their efforts in the reaper war. People aren't going to forget the salarians sat on their hands for quite awhile while planets burned. 

[KaiserShep]

I don't think the salarians would dare to blow up a relay just to deal with the krogan. Everyone in the galaxy would turn on them in a second, and they would lose their position on the Council.

[SporkFu]

If there even is a council after the war, and if there is, there is no guarantee the salarians will keep their place on it. We could see a huge political restructuring. 

[KaiserShep]

Council or no, whatever form of government remains or replaces the old one wouldn't stand for it.

[Dean_the_Young]

I don't think the salarians would dare to blow up a relay just to deal with the krogan. Everyone in the galaxy would turn on them in a second, and they would lose their position on the Council.

Sort of like how everyone in the galaxy turned on the Alliance, which promptly lost its position on the Council?

[Ryriena]

That's odd because I don't remember them turning against the Alliance......

[Dean_the_Young]

If there even is a council after the war, and if there is, there is no guarantee the salarians will keep their place on it. We could see a huge political restructuring. 

 

If there was any species who would get a seat on the Council, the one major species that didn't have its homeworld occupied and its main territory turned into the front lines would be the safest bet. The Salarians have the most intact power base. They have amonst the most residual strength to keep their foot in the door... and extensive blackmail and other means to keep the Turians and Asari (and maybe Humans) from wanting to kick them out.

 

Of course, the Crucible ultimately trumps all that. In a Destroy setting, there probably isn't a galactic civilization period for some time. The only people we see in the epilogues getting back to their homes in a lifetime are the ones with the centuries-long life span to do so via slow FTL travel. In a Control setting, the Shepardlyst's will is the political restructuring. And in Synthesis... who knows?

[Ryriena]

Please, that is bull crud Dean. Even, I can see them get kicked off the Council for withholding support for the war. The one species that didn't help in the war efforts get rewarded for not doing a damn thing. Yeah right.

[SporkFu]

If there was any species who would get a seat on the Council, the one major species that didn't have its homeworld occupied and its main territory turned into the front lines would be the safest bet. The Salarians have the most intact power base. They have amonst the most residual strength to keep their foot in the door... and extensive blackmail and other means to keep the Turians and Asari (and maybe Humans) from wanting to kick them out.

 

Of course, the Crucible ultimately trumps all that. In a Destroy setting, there probably isn't a galactic civilization period for some time. The only people we see in the epilogues getting back to their homes in a lifetime are the ones with the centuries-long life span to do so via slow FTL travel. In a Control setting, the Shepardlyst's will is the political restructuring. And in Synthesis... who knows?

That's a good point. The salarians may very well have the strongest powerbase in the future, and they may take it in a direction nobody can predict. Maybe they'll try and set up their own empire. 

 

Please, that is bull crud Dean. Even, I can see them get kicked off the Council for withholding support for the war. The one species that didn't help in the war efforts get rewarded for not doing a damn thing. Yeah right.

Except that after the citadel coup attempt, the salarians throw their full support into the war effort as a thank you for saving councilor Valern. 

[Dean_the_Young]

Engaging in wild speculation here, but I'm thinking there would be an initial HUGE surge in the krogan population -- After all, they will have been decimated in the reaper war along with everyone else -- but things would even out after awhile. The krogan don't want a repeat of history any more than anyone else, and Eve will keep preaching her wisdom to make sure that history doesn't repeat. 

Since when has wisdom of past mistakes kept history from repeating itself? Let's ignore that the warmongering Krogan don't see it as history repeating itself- they see it as revenge/justice, and they think they'll win.

 

Moreover, since when is Eve an effective limiter for an entire culture? Let's ignore her somewhat self-serving argument that males are the problem with the Krogan and that the females are more enlightened: we have past female Warlords to suggest otherwise, but whatever.

 

Eve's influence is going to be more soft power than hard. She may have influence as a hero, of gratitude, of honor and respect and all that soft power. But what does she have to use against people who don't give her deference?

 

Wrex's power base, the only Krogan polity that embraced the sort of reforms that she supports and considers necessary, didn't exist because it was popular and the Krogan loved reforms. It sustained itself because it controlled the viable female population, and reforms were the price of admission. Breeding depended on access to semi-fertile females- if you didn't at least nominally start reforms, you didn't get any.

 

But that arrangement depended on the genophage. With the genophage cured, everyone is fertile. Every female, whether they agree or not with Eve, is fertile. The clans no longer need to adopt reforms to maximize their chances for breeding: they just need a fertile female. Who could be willing (a political rival or dissident), or could be unwilling (a horrific but real possibility).

 

Eve has virtually no chance of being able to preserve the breeding monopoly that let Wrex start reforms. Her ability to bring cultural changes to those who don't see her views as preferable is, at best, limited.

[Dean_the_Young]

That's a good point. The salarians may very well have the strongest powerbase in the future, and they may take it in a direction nobody can predict. Maybe they'll try and set up their own empire. 

 

Going by their past, they'll be more likely to try and keep in the next ruling order and work to keep threats to them at a minimum.
 

 

Except that after the citadel coup attempt, the salarians throw their full support into the war effort as a thank you for saving councilor Valern.

 

 

So not only did no one get kicked off the Council for destroying a relay, no one got kicked off for not supporting Shepard early enough in the beginning stages.

 

Mind you, the Asari are probably more vulnerable to 'you didn't support the war' charges than the Salarians. The Salarians might not have supported the Crucible project and Shepard's retake Earth fixation, but they were involved in the war effort outside of Shepard. The Asari not only were just as hesitant about jumping in the initial alliance as the Salarians, but then there was the whole Prothean Beacon with the key to winning the war that they kept a secret for several months as everyone else was being Reaped.

 

The Salarians can get blasted for not supporting Shepard out of fears of the genophage issue, but the Asari were letting everyone get massacred while covering up their dirty secret until they thought it could save Thessia. That's misaimed priorities at best, and a deliberate policy to weaken everyone else via third party genocide at worst.

[SporkFu]

Since when has wisdom of past mistakes kept history from repeating itself? Let's ignore that the warmongering Krogan don't see it as history repeating itself- they see it as revenge/justice, and they think they'll win.

 

Moreover, since when is Eve an effective limiter for an entire culture? Let's ignore her somewhat self-serving argument that males are the problem with the Krogan and that the females are more enlightened: we have past female Warlords to suggest otherwise, but whatever.

 

Eve's influence is going to be more soft power than hard. She may have influence as a hero, of gratitude, of honor and respect and all that soft power. But what does she have to use against people who don't give her deference?

 

Wrex's power base, the only Krogan polity that embraced the sort of reforms that she supports and considers necessary, didn't exist because it was popular and the Krogan loved reforms. It sustained itself because it controlled the viable female population, and reforms were the price of admission. Breeding depended on access to semi-fertile females- if you didn't at least nominally start reforms, you didn't get any.

 

But that arrangement depended on the genophage. With the genophage cured, everyone is fertile. Every female, whether they agree or not with Eve, is fertile. The clans no longer need to adopt reforms to maximize their chances for breeding: they just need a fertile female. Who could be willing (a political rival or dissident), or could be unwilling (a horrific but real possibility).

 

Eve has virtually no chance of being able to preserve the breeding monopoly that let Wrex start reforms. Her ability to bring cultural changes to those who don't see her views as preferable is, at best, limited.

You're discounting the effect that curing the genophage might have on the krogan people. Almost 1500 years of living under that curse suddenly gone thanks to Wrex and Eve. It's like a huge weight off everyone's shoulders.

 

Look at when they first land on Tuchanka to go to the shroud. Wreav is ready to go to war with Wrex right there simply because he brought a salarian with him. Then Eve appears and basically says, "you can fight like we always have, or you can fight for a krogan future." and Wreav says, "yeah okay. Let's do that." As quickly as that the situation is diffused and the krogans' anger is refocused on the reapers. 

 

Wrex and Eve will continue to do that after the war, and the more converts they gain, the more quickly and easily that will spread amongst the krogan. Not saying it won't be a bumpy road, but I could see Eve's work reaching almost religious proportions in the end. 

[Dean_the_Young]

 
Alternatively, it demonstrates how much "maintaining the genophage" in and of itself - regardless of the consequences - had become valuable to elements of the salarian elite. It seems apparent to me that many Council observers consider the genophage to be their sole safeguard against a metaphorical avalanche of bloodthirsty krogan. They equate the end of the genophage to the end of their security, instead of seeing it as only one part of an entire network of measures taken to limit the security threat that the krogan posed.

 

-snip-

Then again, if you're the kind of person who thinks that the krogan should have been slaughtered en masse in retaliation for the rebellions, then you probably aren't all that worried about the societal effects of the genophage on the krogan.

 

Lots of good points here. While the post-Destroy Crucible would give the Krogan time like anyone else to build up a space faring civilization that might not be so one-sided a space war, that's a purely metagaming argument that Shepard doesn't know. As far as the immediate or near term consequences of the genophage cure go, I too wouldn't be terribly concerned about a space war. A major and exponential colonization wave across the galaxy, which could be the basis of future things, is far more credible.

 

 

I think it's interesting to note that the Krogan (and Rachni) birth rates are so destabilizing in part because every other species seems to have relatively comparable growth rates. Part of that 'aliens are very human' thing, but the galactic system really works on a general assumption of relatively comparable population growth.

 

You could probably recast the entire ME trilogy about population balances and growth, if you really wanted.

[Dean_the_Young]

You're discounting the effect that curing the genophage might have on the krogan people. Almost 1500 years of living under that curse suddenly gone thanks to Wrex and Eve. It's like a huge weight off everyone's shoulders.

 

Look at when they first land on Tuchanka to go to the shroud. Wreav is ready to go to war with Wrex right there simply because he brought a salarian with him. Then Eve appears and basically says, "you can fight like we always have, or you can fight for a krogan future." and Wreav says, "yeah okay. Let's do that." As quickly as that the situation is diffused and the krogans' anger is refocused on the reapers. 

 

Wrex and Eve will continue to do that after the war, and the more converts they gain, the more quickly and easily that will spread amongst the krogan. Not saying it won't be a bumpy road, but I could see Eve's work reaching almost religious proportions in the end. 

 

I suspect there might be a slight difference between convincing some Krogan of an enemy mine situation that would allow the genophage to be cured, versus actually changing their views (which isn't even suggested in the Wrex/Wreave confrontation, and we never see in any permutation of the franchise). Let's point out that Eve makes the exact same spiel when its Wreave and his Blood Pack rival, and there is no insinuation of cultural reform there.

 

Everyone wants a future, but plenty of Krogan are uninterested in the kind of future that Wrex and Eve promote. Lifting the genophage wouldn't be lifting a weight that makes them reconsider their ambitions in line to Eve's- it would be lifting the weight restricting their ambitions to pursue the path Eve abhors.

 

 

Wrex and Eve don't have to be unpopular for their vision of a peaceful Krogan to fail. They simply have to be unpopular enough that Krogan who disagree with them (of which there are many) are able to set up a separate power base and do the things that everyone is afraid that would bring collective retaliation down against all Krogan. Wrex and Eve are going to have to prevent that power base from being able to act. If they can't prevent this, then the Krogan will remain a collective threat in the minds of the others if even the 'good' Krogan break off war mongerers that threaten others via reproduction.

 

 

But what does that power base really need to get off the ground? A single female, willing or unwilling. Time. A shuttle or few, to find a bastion to build off from.

 

The measures Wrex and Eve would need to keep the Krogan peaceful and united and not a threat to the slower-breeding species are quite frankly horrifying.

[Ryriena]

That's a good point. The salarians may very well have the strongest powerbase in the future, and they may take it in a direction nobody can predict. Maybe they'll try and set up their own empire.

Except that after the citadel coup attempt, the salarians throw their full support into the war effort as a thank you for saving councilor Valern.

Not me since I don't ever get full support. Yeah I saved Valern but never got full support. That was done by the STG so the Dalatras can stuff it for all I care. They should lose support over not giving support when need. Hell, they didn't help out until the damn Coup when we saved their council member and only gave half of their forces. This is a violation of several treaties between the Citadel NATO forces. They should get severely punished for that at least.

[Daemul]

 

Except that after the citadel coup attempt, the salarians throw their full support into the war effort as a thank you for saving councilor Valern. 

Nah, they only give you one fleet, if you want the other fleet you need to sabotage the cure. 

 

On topic:

 

Let's use our brains here for a moment guys, the Asari and Salarians are not going to be kicked off a council they founded, its not going to happen. 

[guigaccess]

Back on topic, Mass Effect 3's writing of Krogan births is quite off putting. Krogans have normal sized youngs, and by not specifying in what EDI means by "eggs" makes the concept quite vague. My interpretation is that Female Krogans must produce a lot of ovum which makes them very fertile. But what I wonder is how fast do their fetus's grow? 

I would guess she refers to regular eggs because she says "1,000 fertilized eggs".

 

I am no biologist, but if EDI meant eggs like in a human eggs cell a clutch of 1,000 fertilized eggs wouldn't mean 1,000 babies growing inside the female at the same time?

And while I am no english native speaker, I don't think the word "egg" is used to refer to the egg cell after it is fertilized.

 

Not to mention the sentence "lay a clutch of eggs" doesn't sound like something one would say refering to a ma,mal-like creature.

[I Tsunayoshi I]

Please, that is bull crud Dean. Even, I can see them get kicked off the Council for withholding support for the war. The one species that didn't help in the war efforts get rewarded for not doing a damn thing. Yeah right.

The Salarians are in a lose-lose position. They give you the First Fleet, and the Humans and Turians are likely to crawl up their asses for stealing top secret tech from other council races. if you get the token support for saving the Counselor, you still are not getting anything worth a damn which should get them accused of not wanting to aid the war effort.

 

The fact that Linron tried to get you to sabotage the Genophage cure would be enough to cause them lasting trouble after the war even.

 

That's a good point. The salarians may very well have the strongest powerbase in the future, and they may take it in a direction nobody can predict. Maybe they'll try and set up their own empire. 

 

Except that after the citadel coup attempt, the salarians throw their full support into the war effort as a thank you for saving councilor Valern. 

 

That isnt full support because they hold back the First Fleet. Though honestly, it would have been in their best interests to never let word of that get out in the first place. They'd be in the same level of trouble that the Alliance was when they got caught with their hand in the AI cookie jar.

[Dean_the_Young]

The Salarians are in a lose-lose position. They give you the First Fleet, and the Humans and Turians are likely to crawl up their asses for stealing top secret tech from other council races. if you get the token support for saving the Counselor, you still are not getting anything worth a damn which should get them accused of not wanting to aid the war effort.

 

The fact that Linron tried to get you to sabotage the Genophage cure would be enough to cause them lasting trouble after the war even.

 

 

That isnt full support because they hold back the First Fleet. Though honestly, it would have been in their best interests to never let word of that get out in the first place. They'd be in the same level of trouble that the Alliance was when they got caught with their hand in the AI cookie jar.

 

There is a difference between not aiding the war effort and not aiding Shepard and the Crucible project/Earth liberation fleet, you know. At no point is it ever indicated that the Salarians are sitting idly and not using their fleets or military against the Reapers just to spite Shepard. Nor do we ever get any insight into the referenced by not war-asseted resources and support the Council as a whole gives after the Coup. There's a lot more going into the Crucible project than what Shepard collects as an asset- it's just guaranteed and doesn't show up as a modifier.

 

And, let's be frank, about the only species the Salarians will be in hot water with for not curing the genophage is probably going to be the Krogan. Unlike, say, the Turians, who had a mega-bomb on the Continent ready to go off, the Salarians were just a bit less helpful in the final push than they could have been.

[Ryriena]

They hardly aided in the war effort in the first place. They gave Shepard one of their fleets since it was ordered by the STG to do so not by the Dalatras. In other words, she refused to help in the war effort as the Salarins were untouched by the reapers. This proves to me they gave nothing to aid too their allied forces let alone the citadel fleets forces. So yeah they're screwed in that regard.

[Kabooooom]

The only people we see in the epilogues getting back to their homes in a lifetime are the ones with the centuries-long life span to do so via slow FTL travel. In a Control setting, the Shepardlyst's will is the political restructuring. And in Synthesis... who knows?

I think even the writers underestimated how fast their own fictional FTL drives could go. It would only take roughly 40 years (estimation based on relative distance) to reach Rannoch from earth, assuming no travel in a straight line (to avoid the dangerous area that extends for 20kly from the galactic core), no extended stopping, no need to regain fuel from gas giants/discharge/etc which is unreasonable. But, 50 years is a plenty reasonable bet. All of the other homeworlds are much closer to earth than Rannoch. Many younger individuals could easily reach them in their lifetimes, and for the longer lived species it'd be no problem at all.

It only takes roughly 25-30 years at 12 Ly/day to travel clear across the milky way in a straight line. (this would not be possible, as you could not travel by FTL anywhere close to the galactic core and would have to take an extended arching path around it, which extends the length of travel time).

People underestimate how crazy fast the Mass Effect FTL drives are described as being. The average speed of a vessel is roughly 4,380c.

[I Tsunayoshi I]

There is a difference between not aiding the war effort and not aiding Shepard and the Crucible project/Earth liberation fleet, you know. At no point is it ever indicated that the Salarians are sitting idly and not using their fleets or military against the Reapers just to spite Shepard. Nor do we ever get any insight into the referenced by not war-asseted resources and support the Council as a whole gives after the Coup. There's a lot more going into the Crucible project than what Shepard collects as an asset- it's just guaranteed and doesn't show up as a modifier.

 

And, let's be frank, about the only species the Salarians will be in hot water with for not curing the genophage is probably going to be the Krogan. Unlike, say, the Turians, who had a mega-bomb on the Continent ready to go off, the Salarians were just a bit less helpful in the final push than they could have been.

 

The Salarians for the most part were only concerned about themselves even when everyone else was starting to figure they needed the bloody help.

 

Fact of the matter is, if the First Fleet is given to Shep, it means the secret is out about the stolen Normandy Stealth tech. They will pay for that no matter what.

 

Linron will pay for her disgustingly bad leadership regardless of if she gets what she wants or not.

 

The Salarians would be in the same position as the Krogan around the time of the Rebellions. ANY sort of stupid and/or bad move by them would be punished harshly with effects to be felt for centuries afterwards.

[Deathsaurer]

 

Except that after the citadel coup attempt, the salarians throw their full support into the war effort as a thank you for saving councilor Valern. 

It's a transparent political ploy from Linron though. And may have been the result of significant STG pressure. Actual reprisal against the Salarian Union

however is unwarranted. The STG didn't care about any of the political angles and they'll deal with Linron their own way. She was the problem, not the species.

 

Wrex's power base, the only Krogan polity that embraced the sort of reforms that she supports and considers necessary, didn't exist because it was popular and the Krogan loved reforms. It sustained itself because it controlled the viable female population, and reforms were the price of admission. Breeding depended on access to semi-fertile females- if you didn't at least nominally start reforms, you didn't get any.

 

But that arrangement depended on the genophage. With the genophage cured, everyone is fertile. Every female, whether they agree or not with Eve, is fertile. The clans no longer need to adopt reforms to maximize their chances for breeding: they just need a fertile female. Who could be willing (a political rival or dissident), or could be unwilling (a horrific but real possibility).

 

Eve has virtually no chance of being able to preserve the breeding monopoly that let Wrex start reforms. Her ability to bring cultural changes to those who don't see her views as preferable is, at best, limited.

Disagree with this. The War Assets page for Wrex says all conservative Krogan that opposed him promptly shut up once the Genophage. They basically lost all clout. That and all the females want a piece of Wrex, all day every day. He literally ran away from Tuchanka to get away from them because they won't leave him alone. We see the stark contrast between Wrex and Wreav in what the Krogan do in the ending slides.

[Dean_the_Young]

The Salarians for the most part were only concerned about themselves even when everyone else was starting to figure they needed the bloody help.

 

Fact of the matter is, if the First Fleet is given to Shep, it means the secret is out about the stolen Normandy Stealth tech. They will pay for that no matter what.

 

Linron will pay for her disgustingly bad leadership regardless of if she gets what she wants or not.

 

The Salarians would be in the same position as the Krogan around the time of the Rebellions. ANY sort of stupid and/or bad move by them would be punished harshly with effects to be felt for centuries afterwards.

 

The Secret of the Normandy Stealth tech was out when Cerberus revealed they could build a bigger, better normandy stealth tech. Considering the Council already was established to be having a direct hand in the project, the idea that there will be an international incident or repercussion from a Council member having technology of a Council-sanctioned project between Council members is a bit weak.

 

I'm not going to lie- I think you're taking far worse of a view of the Salarians than has been evidenced by any non-Krogan in the ME-verse.