359 réponses à ce sujet

[Dean_the_Young]

Disagree with this. The War Assets page for Wrex says all conservative Krogan that opposed him promptly shut up once the Genophage. They basically lost all clout. That and all the females want a piece of Wrex, all day every day. He literally ran away from Tuchanka to get away from them because they won't leave him alone. We see the stark contrast between Wrex and Wreav in what the Krogan do in the ending slides.

They build a big building, and some have happy expressions on their faces with babies.

 

And that implies... what about Wrex's ability to prevent dissent over the medium or even long term? Or how enduring the opposition shut-up is?

[Barquiel]

I think even the writers underestimated how fast their own fictional FTL drives could go. It would only take roughly 40 years (estimation based on relative distance) to reach Rannoch from earth, assuming no travel in a straight line (to avoid the dangerous area that extends for 20kly from the galactic core), no extended stopping, no need to regain fuel from gas giants/discharge/etc which is unreasonable. But, 50 years is a plenty reasonable bet. All of the other homeworlds are much closer to earth than Rannoch. Many younger individuals could easily reach them in their lifetimes, and for the longer lived species it'd be no problem at all.

It only takes roughly 25-30 years at 12 Ly/day to travel clear across the milky way in a straight line. (this would not be possible, as you could not travel by FTL anywhere close to the galactic core and would have to take an extended arching path around it, which extends the length of travel time).

People underestimate how crazy fast the Mass Effect FTL drives are described as being. The average speed of a vessel is roughly 4,380c.

According to the developers the planet slides in the epilogue take place 10-15 years after the war. And we see Samara on Thessia and Wrex/Grunt on Tuchanka...

[I Tsunayoshi I]

I'm not going to lie- I think you're taking far worse of a view of the Salarians than has been evidenced by any non-Krogan in the ME-verse.

 

Not gonna lie. I've started to hate the Salarians more and more since ME2. Mordin coming out about the modified Genophage is pretty telling about the entire race when its clear they acted out of one of the most irrational reasons ever to keep the Krogan down when they had absolutely no reason to and no means to predict the future with the overabundance of variables they could never account for in their simulations.

[Kabooooom]

The Secret of the Normandy Stealth tech was out when Cerberus revealed they could build a bigger, better normandy stealth tech. Considering the Council already was established to be having a direct hand in the project, the idea that there will be an international incident or repercussion from a Council member having technology of a Council-sanctioned project between Council members is a bit weak.

I'm not going to lie- I think you're taking far worse of a view of the Salarians than has been evidenced by any non-Krogan in the ME-verse.

No, like I said in the other thread - the Cord-Hislop Aerospace company (Cerberus, basically) was contracted by the Alliance to build the Normandy SR-1. The blueprints were never "leaked". They just already had them and used them to design the SR-2. The Salarians and Quarians must have therefore stolen the blueprints somehow.

[Kabooooom]

According to the developers the planet slides in the epilogue take place 10-15 years after the war. And we see Samara on Thessia and Wrex/Grunt on Tuchanka...

If that's true, then that is a stupidly fast amount of time and the developers retconned their own lore - which wouldn't be the first time. The speed I gave for the FTL drives is what is described from multiple in game sources, including the Codex and Ashley when she tells you 12 ly is roughly "one day's travel" in ME1.

[Deathsaurer]

This is what the war assets pages says about Wrex.

 

Urdnot Wrex fought alongside Commander Shepard during the Reapers' first invasion attempt in 2183. Afterwards, he returned to Tuchanka and spent the following years rising to the leadership of his clan, championing progressive methods meant to strengthen the krogan as a whole. Conservative elements were unhappy, but news of a successfully cured genophage has solidly united all of Tuchanka under Wrex's command. Hailed not only as a great warrior but a savior, the krogan will follow Urdnot Wrex into the maws of the Reapers themselves.

 

 

And we're told in the Citadel DLC that all the females are firmly in Wrex's camp.

 

 

In short is power base his stronger than it ever was. If the Council gives the Krogan planets for expansion because of his diplomatic undertakings it will be further vindication of his beliefs and with the females backing him his rule won't be in danger for a very, very long time.

[Barquiel]

If that's true, then that is a stupidly fast amount of time and the developers retconned their own lore - which wouldn't be the first time. The speed I gave for the FTL drives is what is described from multiple in game sources, including the Codex and Ashley when she tells you 12 ly is roughly "one day's travel" in ME1.

Well, Patrick Weekes said the element zero cores of the dead/controlled Reapers can be used to improve FTL drives. And the Mass Relays can be repaired. Aethyta implies that the asari have the capability (or at the very least the foundations) to make their own mass relays...and the relays in the Athena Nebula (Thessia), Tuchanka and Sol are probably among the first to be repaired.

[Dean_the_Young]

No, like I said in the other thread - the Cord-Hislop Aerospace company (Cerberus, basically) was contracted by the Alliance to build the Normandy SR-1. The blueprints were never "leaked". They just already had them and used them to design the SR-2. The Salarians and Quarians must have therefore stolen the blueprints somehow.

 

...er, the blue prints falling into possession of designated terrorists by hiring one of their front companies is precisely the sort of security failure that would be considered a leak. A major one at that. Neither the Alliance nor the Council intended for Cerberus to get them, even if they did.

 

On the other hand, the STG procuring the stealth system schematics and Reaper IFF could have been as basic as calling their fellow Council members (possibly Turian, but possibly the Alliance) and trading favors/blackmail. Theft isn't necessary... but even if it was theft, I don't see it being particularly controversial considering that the Salarians are exception for their intelligence operations. It's not like they used it for anything particularly controversial- not compared to what Shepard and the Alliance have done in their black ops.

 

I believe the Devs already nixed the theory that Tali stole and passed on the Normandy stealth systems, but the Quarians aren't building from the blue prints either. Technological reworking once a proof of concept is known is pretty common. Unpopular, but not necessarily illegal... but then, the Quarians are also known for being thieves.

 

 

I am curious what you think the punishment for theft of stealth technology would be. Personally I suspect a wag of the finger- after all, the the possible theft comes out in the course of fighting the ultimate universal evil, and the alternative is that the Alliance and Turians hoarded the technology in the face of omnicide... except, you know, for paying terrorists for the privilage of building the stealth ship for them. I really don't see interspecies opinion being against the Quarians and Salarians at that point.

[Farangbaa]

This is all fine and dandy, but it's stated pretty clearly in the Codex that the Salarians reverse-engineerd the tech.

[Kabooooom]

Yes, but ignoring the possibility of increasing FTL speed with reaper drives (keep in mind that the reapers can only travel like 30 Ly/day which is not *that* much faster on the grand scheme of things) - to repair a primary relay pair requires repairing, well, both relays of the pair. If you repaired the Charon relay, which is a secondary relay, you'd have to travel by FTL by 36 ly to repair one of the Arcturus relays. Arcturus is a hub system, and contained multiple primary relays (although only one was shown in-game). Some of the relays link across thousands of light years, which adds up. So each time you repair a primary pair, you'd always have to travel by FTL the length of the relay span before they are repaired.

So I have a hard time believing that this could be accomplished in 15 years.

[Dean_the_Young]

This is what the war assets pages says about Wrex.

 

 

And we're told in the Citadel DLC that all the females are firmly in Wrex's camp.

 

 

In short is power base his stronger than it ever was. If the Council gives the Krogan planets for expansion because of his diplomatic undertakings it will be further vindication of his beliefs and with the females backing him his rule won't be in danger for a very, very long time.

 

What consituttes a long time in Krogan politics? The argument against Wrex's position isn't that he doesn't have support in the short term: it's that his short term support doesn't imply long term commitment. Brief moments of unity are uncommon, but not unknown: the Reaper War and genophage cure is as obvious a context as any, and it's one that applies to Wreave as well. The question becomes why it should stay that way indefinitely: Wrex didn't think it would, which is why his power base was based off a coercive system of breeding retaliation. As was pointed out, the females collectively can be behind Wrex all they want: dissenters and even rape victims can make that moot.

 

The fear of any Krogan watcher is that Wrex's unipolar moment will, going forward, prove to be only that: a moment of heroic and contextual unity in which gratitude and common cause eclipse political differences. Passing context isn't the basis of concerns about the Krogan: systemic trends are.

[Dean_the_Young]

This is all fine and dandy, but it's stated pretty clearly in the Codex that the Salarians reverse-engineerd the tech.

 

I don't recall this (I just looked up the War Asset entry), but let's go with that.

 

So what? What about the Salarians reverse engineering another species technology would be considered exceptional, let alone particularly controversial, after the Reaper War?

[Daemul]

According to the developers the planet slides in the epilogue take place 10-15 years after the war. And we see Samara on Thessia and Wrex/Grunt on Tuchanka...

 

The developers said a lot of things in order to stop fans worrying. it's like a parent telling their child that someone isn't dead, they're only sleeping. When the child gets older they realise that their parent was spouting BS. 

[Kabooooom]

I am curious what you think the punishment for theft of stealth technology would be. Personally I suspect a wag of the finger- after all, the the possible theft comes out in the course of fighting the ultimate universal evil, and the alternative is that the Alliance and Turians hoarded the technology in the face of omnicide... except, you know, for paying terrorists for the privilage of building the stealth ship for them. I really don't see interspecies opinion being against the Quarians and Salarians at that point.

You were describing a sort of "leak" in the sense that "if Cerberus got the plans then anyone could". I rebutted that by pointing out that internally the plans could still be completely secret within the Alliance, Turian Heirarchy, and Cerberus and a massive galaxy wide leak was not necessary. And realistically, it is in the best interest of Cerberus, the Alliance, and the Heirarchy to not leak this information. Although the blackmail example you raised is certainly a possibility - particularly with the Salarians. They are kind of dicks like that.

Also, the punishment in real life should be life imprisonment (I don't accept the death penalty for anything on principle, including for treason). In the case of a fictitious galaxy-wide war in which secret blueprints were leaked/stolen but contributed massively to the war effort nonetheless, a war which results in a massive hit to galactic infrastructure - wag of finger, yes.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

I agree completely with Dean on the Krogan and Salarians. 

 

Honestly? I don't think the Genophage went far enough. The Krogan are dead weight on the galaxy, and I have no faith in their capacity to change into something productive. Like the Quarians, I view the galaxy to be a better place with them gone. They're just violent barbarians. It's in their genes. No amount of short-term social experimentation is going to change that. Once the War is over, I'm coming back to put the Krogan down for good.

[Farangbaa]

I don't recall this (I just looked up the War Asset entry), but let's go with that.

 

So what? What about the Salarians reverse engineering another species technology would be considered exceptional, let alone particularly controversial, after the Reaper War?

 

I might be confusing this with something else... but I don't think so.

 

And my point is that no one should really care that they have the tech if they reverse engineered it. You can't blame them for that.

 

Unless there's whicked patent laws in the MEU

[I Tsunayoshi I]

On the other hand, the STG procuring the stealth system schematics and Reaper IFF could have been as basic as calling their fellow Council members (possibly Turian, but possibly the Alliance) and trading favors/blackmail. Theft isn't necessary... but even if it was theft, I don't see it being particularly controversial considering that the Salarians are exception for their intelligence operations. It's not like they used it for anything particularly controversial- not compared to what Shepard and the Alliance have done in their black ops.

 

I believe the Devs already nixed the theory that Tali stole and passed on the Normandy stealth systems, but the Quarians aren't building from the blue prints either. Technological reworking once a proof of concept is known is pretty common. Unpopular, but not necessarily illegal... but then, the Quarians are also known for being thieves.

 

I am curious what you think the punishment for theft of stealth technology would be. Personally I suspect a wag of the finger- after all, the the possible theft comes out in the course of fighting the ultimate universal evil, and the alternative is that the Alliance and Turians hoarded the technology in the face of omnicide... except, you know, for paying terrorists for the privilage of building the stealth ship for them. I really don't see interspecies opinion being against the Quarians and Salarians at that point.

 

1: The Quarians cant reverse engineer **** without someone to see the tech at document what they can. Tali is the only Quarian to have that opportunity. Even if the tech isnt straight up stolen, they had to have someone to come back with the data needed to reverse engineer the tech. I dont really care what the Devs say in this regard because what we know in game is directly contradictory to what they are saying.

 

2: The Salarians didnt reverse-engineer the stealth tech. It was stolen under orders by STG along with the Reaper IFF (http://masseffect.wi...ian_First_Fleet). This effectively confirms they were not given the tech, and that laws were broken to get what they needed to make the First Fleet into what it is. The Salarians cant defend having the tech nor how they procured it to begin with. They undertook a criminal act and should be held accountable for it.

 

Assuming the orders came from Linron, incarceration is an absolute minimum for her. This assumes she lives considering her political position on Sur'kesh to begin with. Sanctions against the Salarian Union, primarily aimed at either forcing oversight over any use of the STG or taking STG control away from the Salarians in general.

 

Linron herself has no career beyond the Reaper War regardless of the Genophage being sabotaged or not. She either gets busted red handed in trying to sabotage the T-K which ends her career, or she's done in by turning over a fleet that's main feature was stolen from Turian Hierarchy and the Alliance.

 

This is all fine and dandy, but it's stated pretty clearly in the Codex that the Salarians reverse-engineerd the tech.

 

I provided a link that shows thats a load of ****.

[Dean_the_Young]

You were describing a sort of "leak" in the sense that "if Cerberus got the plans then anyone could". I rebutted that by pointing out that internally the plans could still be completely secret within the Alliance, Turian Heirarchy, and Cerberus and a massive galaxy wide leak was not necessary. And realistically, it is in the best interest of Cerberus, the Alliance, and the Heirarchy to not leak this information. Although the blackmail example you raised is certainly a possibility - particularly with the Salarians. They are kind of dicks like that.

 

Ah, a mistaken communication on my part. My point wasn't that 'if Cerberus got the plans then anyone could': my point was that if Cerberus got the plans, then the Humans and Turians have far great grief from other races for losing such technology to terrorists than the Salarians (or Quarians) would receive for getting the technology for themselves.

 

In fact, I expect many Humans and Turians would care far more about Cerberus getting a hold of stealth technology than they would about the Salarians. Fortunately the Salarians know about Cerberus and the SR2, and could easily tell them if certain Turian/Human interests decided to accuse the Salarians of irresponsible technology gathering.
 

Also, the punishment in real life should be life imprisonment (I don't accept the death penalty for anything on principle, including for treason). In the case of a fictitious galaxy-wide war in which secret blueprints were leaked/stolen but contributed massively to the war effort nonetheless, a war which results in a massive hit to galactic infrastructure - wag of finger, yes.

 

So, when are we stringing up those Humans and Turians who hired anti-Council terrorists to build their stealth ships?

[Farangbaa]

I provided a link that shows thats a load of ****.

 

 

I might be confusing this with something else...

[Deathsaurer]

What consituttes a long time in Krogan politics? The argument against Wrex's position isn't that he doesn't have support in the short term: it's that his short term support doesn't imply long term commitment. Brief moments of unity are uncommon, but not unknown: the Reaper War and genophage cure is as obvious a context as any, and it's one that applies to Wreave as well. The question becomes why it should stay that way indefinitely: Wrex didn't think it would, which is why his power base was based off a coercive system of breeding retaliation. As was pointed out, the females collectively can be behind Wrex all they want: dissenters and even rape victims can make that moot.

 

The fear of any Krogan watcher is that Wrex's unipolar moment will, going forward, prove to be only that: a moment of heroic and contextual unity in which gratitude and common cause eclipse political differences. Passing context isn't the basis of concerns about the Krogan: systemic trends are.

Why exactly do you think anyone will be interested in following the old ways that left Tuchanka in ruins for over a thousand years? The dissenters know they have nothing to offer the Krogan people. Wrex did far more for them in 2 years than the old ways ever managed. I'm sure some males will resist the new ways and I'm sure they will fail. They might maintain a separate, significantly smaller, Krogan population in the Terminus Systems but they aren't going anywhere because, as I said, they have nothing to offer but isolation and despair. It comes down to the guy that can say I got the Genophage cured vs the guys that would still be sitting in rubble plotting their non existent revenge.

 

This is ignoring that in 2/3 of the endings the Krogan by themselves will never be a major threat to the galaxy again regardless. And in the last one the threat they provide is questionable at best since they have no means of large scale space transit for the foreseeable future.

[Dean_the_Young]

1: The Quarians cant reverse engineer **** without someone to see the tech at document what they can. Tali is the only Quarian to have that opportunity. Even if the tech isnt straight up stolen, they had to have someone to come back with the data needed to reverse engineer the tech. I dont really care what the Devs say in this regard because what we know in game is directly contradictory to what they are saying.

 

That's not quite right. Most engineering breakthroughs are about establishing that a proof of concept works: once people know that it is possible, reverse engineering is far, far easier. Even a non-technical description from Tali of heat sinks, gravity wells, and oversized e-zero cores would be a foundation for reverse engineering. And that's not even touching

 

2: The Salarians didnt reverse-engineer the stealth tech. It was stolen under orders by STG along with the Reaper IFF (http://masseffect.wi...ian_First_Fleet). This effectively confirms they were not given the tech, and that laws were broken to get what they needed to make the First Fleet into what it is. The Salarians cant defend having the tech nor how they procured it to begin with. They undertook a criminal act and should be held accountable for it.

 

Well, aside from how 'procure' doesn't translate to 'steal'... sure the Salarians can defend how they got it. They got a first rate intelligence agency, and everyone knows it. Just like the Salarians know how the Alliance conducts covert and black ops. The entire Spectre system is a legalized flouting of the law and condonement of criminal activity.

 

 

Assuming the orders came from Linron, incarceration is an absolute minimum for her. This assumes she lives considering her political position on Sur'kesh to begin with. Sanctions against the Salarian Union, primarily aimed at either forcing oversight over any use of the STG or taking STG control away from the Salarians in general.

 

Why? Compared to what Shepard and the Alliance have done, not to mention the dirty secrets of the Turians and Asari, this an extreme over-reaction to not much harm.

 

 

Linron herself has no career beyond the Reaper War regardless of the Genophage being sabotaged or not. She either gets busted red handed in trying to sabotage the T-K which ends her career, or she's done in by turning over a fleet that's main feature was stolen from Turian Hierarchy and the Alliance.

 

Or Cerberus. Though that would make an embarassing scandal in any courtroom if the Turians and Alliance tried to sue the Salarians for copyright, only for it to come out who else they lost the plans to.

 

I provided a link that shows thats a load of ****.

 

I do believe he was responding to me.

[Dean_the_Young]

Why exactly do you think anyone will be interested in following the old ways that left Tuchanka in ruins for over a thousand years?

 

 

Oh, a lot of reasons. I could point that Eve's ways are a return to the old ways that led to the apocalypse.  I could mention that many of the conservatives take a perverse pride in their toughness in the adversity, or that a number of them outright state they think in terms of power and savegery as if it was a good thing. I could point to the various Krogan viewpoints of what is considered 'good' from ME1 and ME2, and how little of that is challenged or changed by Krogan characters not named Wrex or Eve. I could talk about the cultural relevance of the shamans, the rituals, the stated desires or retribution and justice for the genophage.

 

If I wanted to expand on the topic, with real parallels, I could point to a variety of peoples in the world whose society remains in a way that could politely be called 'medieval.' I could talk about narrow interests. I could talk about how conservatism endures.

 

 

The dissenters know they have nothing to offer the Krogan people.

 

 

The dissenters believe they are the Krogan people, and think that the Blood Rage is what give the Krogan strength.

 

Some of them also don't care for the collective past their clan. Since, you know, they're a tribal society.
 

 

Wrex did far more for them in 2 years than the old ways ever managed. I'm sure some males will resist the new ways and I'm sure they will fail. They might maintain a separate, significantly smaller, Krogan population in the Terminus Systems but they aren't going anywhere because, as I said, they have nothing to offer but isolation and despair. It comes down to the guy that can say I got the Genophage cured vs the guys that would still be sitting in rubble plotting their non existent revenge.

 

 

I'm not- actually, I am going to ask this. Have you ever even been to any of the 'backwards' regions of the world and asked anyone why they don't get with the program of modern civilization?

 

Because you sound exactly like a westerner I knew who couldn't understand why Iraqis weren't more grateful for the American invasion of Iraq and all the improvements and social progress they should have embraced.
 

 

This is ignoring that in 2/3 of the endings the Krogan by themselves will never be a major threat to the galaxy again regardless. And in the last one the threat they provide is questionable at best since they have no means of large scale space transit for the foreseeable future.

 

 

 

2/3?

 

Well, in destroy they have a buffer to build up numbers and an empire before everyone bounces into eachother. But then with Control, there's the question about whether Shepardlyst will even oppose them in the first place, or if the Krogan will be allowed to expand and grow into a form at which they are a threat. I don't think most people would advocate pre-emptive genocide (again), but the Reaper deterrant isn't permanent.

 

Synthesis is the most optimistic... though only if other races make themselves more like Krogan.

[DeinonSlayer]

@Tsunayoshi
We're in a war of survival. Weekes said the Quarians got the stealth plans from the Turians and it's said elsewhere the Salarians reverse-engineered it. I honestly don't care who got it or how - nobody throws Garrus in prison for giving Thanix designs to Cerberus. Throwing a **** fit over a patent when those capabilities improve everyone's chances at survival is about as useful as chewing out Admiral Raan for having too many dreadnoughts during a reaper invasion. If we're talking about breaking laws in a way which does not help the war effort (ex: Thessia), that's an entirely different story.

There are times I can see where Massively is coming from. I wouldn't lean towards preemptive extermination, however; I say put who can be put to work in munitions factories and the like - if you come to the military for protection, earn your keep. For those who are able-bodied but unwilling to help, draft who you can, send no help for the rest. Their job is to stay out of the way - make themselves self-sufficient if possible, but if not, resources should not be devoted to helping them. If the Reapers take the time to harvest them, that buys time before they move on to the next world - destroy the Reaper troop transports and processing ships like Illium does before they deploy on the next world, and any gains the Reapers made through the previous time-consuming harvest are negated.

[Excella Gionne]

I would guess she refers to regular eggs because says "1,000 fertilized eggs".

I am no biologist, but if EDI meant eggs like in a human eggs cell a clutch of 1,000 fertilized eggs wouldn't mean 1,000 babies growing inside the female at the same time?
And while I am no english native speaker, I don't think the word "egg" is used to refer to the egg cell after it is fertilized.

Not to mention the sentence "lay a clutch of eggs" doesn't sound like something one would say refering to a ma,mal-like creature.

ME3 contradicts itself in the smallest ways, not saying you're wrong and I'm right. Throughout the Trilogy we only hear of Krogans talking about having a child. Take the Krogan within Tuchanka in the Urdnot Camp in ME2 for example. At the slideshows during any of the endings in 3 should you cure the Genophage, the Krogans are only with one child as well. If they could have many offsprings at once, why do every Krogan always talk about one child. Eve herself talks about her stillborn baby and we both know Stillborn occurs in both births either from an egg or womb. But whatever has been shown about babies throughout the trilogy, it seems Krogans only make single births and live births also seem legit as well.

[Farangbaa]

I'm not- actually, I am going to ask this. Have you ever even been to any of the 'backwards' regions of the world and asked anyone why they don't get with the program of modern civilization?

 

Because you sound exactly like a westerner I knew who couldn't understand why Iraqis weren't more grateful for the American invasion of Iraq and all the improvements and social progress they should have embraced.

 

Anxiously awaiting the reply to this.

 

I'm getting the popcorn