359 réponses à ce sujet

[Excella Gionne]

Wasn't it 1/1000 births are the chances of a baby not being Stillborn.

[Deathsaurer]

Oh, a lot of reasons. I could point that Eve's ways are a return to the old ways that led to the apocalypse.  I could mention that many of the conservatives take a perverse pride in their toughness in the adversity, or that a number of them outright state they think in terms of power and savegery as if it was a good thing. I could point to the various Krogan viewpoints of what is considered 'good' from ME1 and ME2, and how little of that is challenged or changed by Krogan characters not named Wrex or Eve. I could talk about the cultural relevance of the shamans, the rituals, the stated desires or retribution and justice for the genophage.

 

If I wanted to expand on the topic, with real parallels, I could point to a variety of peoples in the world whose society remains in a way that could politely be called 'medieval.' I could talk about narrow interests. I could talk about how conservatism endures.

I'm well aware of the negative aspects of Krogan society. It's hard to miss and very much why they have no future without Wrex. I don't think real world parallels would be particularly meaningful because we've never had a sterilized culture be given a second chance. I'm sure there will be those that object to Wrex's long term vision I just don't think they'll get anywhere. They couldn't unite against him before his Savior of the Krogan status and they certainly won't have the clout after it with the females backing him. Which brings us to the next topic.

 

The dissenters believe they are the Krogan people, and think that the Blood Rage is what give the Krogan strength.

 

Some of them also don't care for the collective past their clan. Since, you know, they're a tribal society.

 

Well that in itself is contradictory. They can't think they are the Krogan people if they don't care about anything past their clan. They can think they are "real" Krogan and the flaw with this mindset it clans are dependent on females to exist. Without sympathetic females you have no clan. You try kidnapping females and the rest of the clans are going to come down on them.
 

 

I'm not- actually, I am going to ask this. Have you ever even been to any of the 'backwards' regions of the world and asked anyone why they don't get with the program of modern civilization?

 

Because you sound exactly like a westerner I knew who couldn't understand why Iraqis weren't more grateful for the American invasion of Iraq and all the improvements and social progress they should have embraced.

 

No, I've never been to them. I've never been particularly interested in why they don't feel the need to change. They can live the lives they want to. And it's very easy to understand why the Iraqis were unhappy. But as I said before I don't see real world examples are particularly meaningful. None of these cultures have ever lived under a forced sterility plague for centuries and have the very obvious before and after metric to compare and ask which they liked best. And I don't see any reason they can't still have their rituals and rites in a more progressive system.

 

Just compare the Wrex and Wreav epilogues. Wreav builds an army (and possibly ends up in a civil war), Wrex's Krogan build a monument. There is a difference shown between the two for a reason. And in Synthesis Wreav isn't even shown building an army. Now having said that with Wreav as the guiding force of the Krogan I absolutely agree with you. Though if I was metagaming I might cure it anyways because there will be something at the end preventing him from doing anything. But that would mainly be to spite him.
 

2/3?

 

Well, in destroy they have a buffer to build up numbers and an empire before everyone bounces into eachother. But then with Control, there's the question about whether Shepardlyst will even oppose them in the first place, or if the Krogan will be allowed to expand and grow into a form at which they are a threat. I don't think most people would advocate pre-emptive genocide (again), but the Reaper deterrant isn't permanent.

 

Synthesis is the most optimistic... though only if other races make themselves more like Krogan.

 

 

Yeah, 2/3. With the Reapers around the Krogan aren't doing squat to anyone. Whether the guardian of all or the leader of the army none would dare oppose the Reapers would put down any Krogan rebellion that occurred. And even without the Reapers you have the Rachni and Geth to consider when factoring in any Krogan threat. The political and military landscape is far different from the rebellions. Hell, the Reapers could just lock all the Relays the Krogan use containing them forever and be done with it.

[I Tsunayoshi I]

@Tsunayoshi
We're in a war of survival. Weekes said the Quarians got the stealth plans from the Turians and it's said elsewhere the Salarians reverse-engineered it. I honestly don't care who got it or how - nobody throws Garrus in prison for giving Thanix designs to Cerberus. Throwing a **** fit over a patent when those capabilities improve everyone's chances at survival is about as useful as chewing out Admiral Raan for having too many dreadnoughts during a reaper invasion. If we're talking about breaking laws in a way which does not help the war effort (ex: Thessia), that's an entirely different story

 

That certainly isnt true because then there would have been no need to reverse engineer anything since they had the plans, and the Salarian's didnt reverse-engineer it because the codex explicitly says STG procured the plans for the stealth systems and the IFF, the latter being impossible to reverse-engineer.

[guigaccess]

EDIT: Sorry, there was a thread on the subject already.

[Excella Gionne]

EDIT: Sorry, there was a thread on the subject already.

What? Did you post this in the wrong thread?

[Kabooooom]

I never much understood the whole "the Salarians acquired the Reaper IFF" thing. In ME2 the IFF is a physical object of Reaper tech, not some code that you just broadcast. But suddenly the Salarians and Cerberus are outfitting all their ships with them in ME3??

This makes even less sense when you consider that Cerberus somehow had this technology in their fleet before they launched their initial assault on Omega and booted Aria out, as they had already established a base beyond the Omega 4 relay.

[I Tsunayoshi I]

I never much understood the whole "the Salarians acquired the Reaper IFF" thing. In ME2 the IFF is a physical object of Reaper tech, not some code that you just broadcast. But suddenly the Salarians and Cerberus are outfitting all their ships with them in ME3??

This makes even less sense when you consider that Cerberus somehow had this technology in their fleet before they launched their initial assault on Omega and booted Aria out, as they had already established a base beyond the Omega 4 relay.

 

I always thought it was code, which is why it could be copied and spread around. Either way, the Salarians went around acquiring tech they didnt have a right to have access to (They could have actually asked since the worst that could happen is getting a pair of nos) and effectively **** away the standing of the Salarian Union as a result.

[DeinonSlayer]

I always thought it was code, which is why it could be copied and spread around. Either way, the Salarians went around acquiring tech they didnt have a right to have access to (They could have actually asked since the worst that could happen is getting a pair of nos) and effectively **** away the standing of the Salarian Union as a result.

DOCTOR
CAL. What is it?

LUX
I'm sorry. You didn't sign your personal experience contracts.

DOCTOR
Mr. Lux, right now, you're in more danger than you've ever been in your whole life. And you're protecting a patent?

LUX
I'm protecting my family's pride.

DOCTOR
Funny thing, Mr Lux, I don't wanna see everyone in this room dead because some idiot thinks his pride is more important.

[I Tsunayoshi I]

I'll take your flippant dismissal as a sign that you dont have any further excuses for the Salarians blatantly breaking galactic wall to steal classified military technology from their fellow Council race partners.

 

The fact that you wanna ignore that its not just a patent issue is a major show of ignorance on your part.

[Kabooooom]

I always thought it was code, which is why it could be copied and spread around. Either way, the Salarians went around acquiring tech they didnt have a right to have access to (They could have actually asked since the worst that could happen is getting a pair of nos) and effectively **** away the standing of the Salarian Union as a result.

Yeah code would make way more sense, right? But in ME2 it is actually a physical object - you see it in the Derelict Reaper when you pick it up, again as a hologram on the Normandy, EDI tells you it has to be physically integrated into the ships systems and you can see it on the wiki page last time I checked:

http://masseffect.wi...wiki/Reaper_IFF

Scroll down to the picture of it.

[DeinonSlayer]

I'll take your flippant dismissal as a sign that you dont have any further excuses for the Salarians blatantly breaking galactic wall to steal classified military technology from their fellow Council race partners.

The fact that you wanna ignore that its not just a patent issue is a major show of ignorance on your part.

The difference here is that I'm looking at that law in the context of whether adhering to it aides or obstructs our survival under the current conditions. Normally I'd be opposed to it, too, but we need to change with the times to survive the Reaper war. If we're willing to turn a blind eye to the Blue Suns, etc. etc. etc., in the same vein I don't have a problem with the Salarians using some underhanded means to acquire plans which improve the capabilities of their ships when pitted against a Reaper. It improves their chances of success, and ours along with it.

Or is Shepard the only person permitted to bend the rules?

"Private where private belongs, public where it's needed, and an acknowledgement that circumstances alter cases."

[I Tsunayoshi I]

The difference here is that I'm looking at that law in the context of whether adhering to it aides or obstructs our survival under the current conditions. Normally I'd be opposed to it, too, but we need to change with the times to survive the Reaper war. If we're willing to turn a blind eye to the Blue Suns, etc. etc. etc., in the same vein I don't have a problem with the Salarians using some underhanded means to acquire plans which improve the capabilities of their ships when pitted against a Reaper. It improves their chances of success, and ours along with it.

Or is Shepard the only person permitted to bend the rules?

"Private where private belongs, public where it's needed, and an acknowledgement that circumstances alter cases."

 

Except they would have had to steal the specs long before the war had started to have built a fleet of ships that could use the stealth systems, meaning it was blatant theft with no excuse to fall back on. The war is irrelevant in regards to what the law demands here, especially with the categorical denial that the Reapers exist being the party line out of all Council Races bar the Alliance after the events of Arrival.

[DeinonSlayer]

Except they would have had to steal the specs long before the war had started to have built a fleet of ships that could use the stealth systems, meaning it was blatant theft with no excuse to fall back on. The war is irrelevant in regards to what the law demands here, especially with the categorical denial that the Reapers exist being the party line out of all Council Races bar the Alliance after the events of Arrival.

Do you have a direct quote somewhere about what the Salarians did? Do we know it wasn't a backchannel deal woth the Turians as it was with the Quarians? Not that it'd change my position, but I'm curious.

"Party line" is the key part of the above. Kirrahe says at least some of them believed the threat to be legitimate - they're preparing by any means they can, like Garrus giving Thanix designs to Cerberus. And again, unlike illegal actions taken by the Asari Matriarchs, this aided the war effort as opposed to hindering it. Seems like a whole lot of counterproductive fuss to me. Or should Shepard be imprisoned after ME1 for stealing the Normandy?

[I Tsunayoshi I]

Do you have a direct quote somewhere about what the Salarians did? Do we know it wasn't a backchannel deal woth the Turians as it was with the Quarians? Not that it'd change my position, but I'm curious.

"Party line" is the key part of the above. Kirrahe says at least some of them believed the threat to be legitimate - they're preparing by any means they can, like Garrus giving Thanix designs to Cerberus. And again, unlike illegal actions taken by the Asari Matriarchs, this aided the war effort as opposed to hindering it. Seems like a whole lot of counterproductive fuss to me. Or should Shepard be imprisoned after ME1 for stealing the Normandy?

 

So a full fleet can be built in a weeks time? If you really wanna play that card, I'm calling bullshit and you can have the entire stack. You cant seriously expect anyone to believe the Salarians really build the First Fleet in such a small timeframe. By the way, STG isnt called in to get anything easy. STG is called in to get something the Salarians know wont be given to them or handed over lightly.

 

Stop trying to deflect to the other races for what they did. One, tech like the Thanix Cannons wasnt classified and was already beginning to be deployed across the entire Turian fleet. It would have been one of the worst kept secrets that one of the most powerful fleets in Citadel space were getting an upgrade. Two, no one is excusing the Matriarchs, and pretty much agree that the Reaper Rape on Thessia was their price to pay for that sort of stupidity.

 

That last statement is pretty much a screw you because now you are insulting people's intelligence by even bringing it up.

[DeinonSlayer]

While on the subject, I actually think it makes a better story if Tali did copy the design from the Normandy. In ME2, her father assigns her a mission in Geth space. The Geth have shot down any organic entering their space on sight for three centuries - no hails, no warnings. Kal says their shuttle had a "low-emissions" mode. They'd need stealth to survive. What's to say her father didn't assign her that mission specifically to coerce her to disclose what she knew?

The choice between copying a design from an ally and certain death is no choice at all.

But, alas, word of god is they got it from the Turians between ME2 and 3.

[Dean_the_Young]

 

 

 

No, I've never been to them. I've never been particularly interested in why they don't feel the need to change. They can live the lives they want to. And it's very easy to understand why the Iraqis were unhappy. But as I said before I don't see real world examples are particularly meaningful. None of these cultures have ever lived under a forced sterility plague for centuries and have the very obvious before and after metric to compare and ask which they liked best. And I don't see any reason they can't still have their rituals and rites in a more progressive system.

This sort of cultural chauvenism and self-centered perspective is an excellent demonstration of why you wouldn't understand other Krogan viewpoints even if they explained them to you... which they did.

[I Tsunayoshi I]

While on the subject, I actually think it makes a better story if Tali did copy the design from the Normandy. In ME2, her father assigns her a mission in Geth space. The Geth have shot down any organic entering their space on sight for three centuries - no hails, no warnings. Kal says their shuttle had a "low-emissions" mode. They'd need stealth to survive. What's to say her father didn't assign her that mission specifically to coerce her to disclose what she knew?

The choice between copying a design from an ally and certain death is no choice at all.

But, alas, word of god is they got it from the Turians between ME2 and 3.

 

And its a bold faced lie. Nothing new that we have seen before from Bioware when it comes down to things they know are not supported in the games.

[Dean_the_Young]

I always thought it was code, which is why it could be copied and spread around. Either way, the Salarians went around acquiring tech they didnt have a right to have access to (They could have actually asked since the worst that could happen is getting a pair of nos) and effectively **** away the standing of the Salarian Union as a result.

 

Well, the worst that could have happened was that the Turians or Humans or Cerberus would say no, and then beef up security measures.

 

Mind you, those governments and private organizations don't exactly have a right to a monopoly on the stealth drive either. There's no such things as a 'right' to national interest monopolies.

[Dean_the_Young]

I never much understood the whole "the Salarians acquired the Reaper IFF" thing. In ME2 the IFF is a physical object of Reaper tech, not some code that you just broadcast. But suddenly the Salarians and Cerberus are outfitting all their ships with them in ME3??

This makes even less sense when you consider that Cerberus somehow had this technology in their fleet before they launched their initial assault on Omega and booted Aria out, as they had already established a base beyond the Omega 4 relay.

Nah, the IFF was software derived from hardware. Cerberus got copies of the IFF back then- you could see them use it if you died but saved teh base.

[DeinonSlayer]

So a full fleet can be built in a weeks time? If you really wanna play that card, I'm calling bullshit and you can have the entire stack. You cant seriously expect anyone to believe the Salarians really build the First Fleet in such a small timeframe. By the way, STG isnt called in to get anything easy. STG is called in to get something the Salarians know wont be given to them or handed over lightly.
 
Stop trying to deflect to the other races for what they did. One, tech like the Thanix Cannons wasnt classified and was already beginning to be deployed across the entire Turian fleet. It would have been one of the worst kept secrets that one of the most powerful fleets in Citadel space were getting an upgrade. Two, no one is excusing the Matriarchs, and pretty much agree that the Reaper Rape on Thessia was their price to pay for that sort of stupidity.
 
That last statement is pretty much a screw you because now you are insulting people's intelligence by even bringing it up.

Calm down. Who said anything about a few weeks? They had two and a half years since Sovereign was destroyed to assess the threat and decide what they needed to do about it. Also, just because an upgrade in military hardware is widespread doesn't mean the designs are unclassified - think ICBMs.

All I asked for was your source that it was stolen.

[guigaccess]

Based on the war asset entry on Salarian's First Fleet, it took them months of research before they could acheive any result. Add to that the time needed to upgrade a whole fleet and a dreadnought and, yeah, the salarian had to start their espionage on the SR-2 many months before the Reapers actually came in.

 

 

Problem is: mere 6 months before the Reapers attacked, the SR-2 still belonged to Cerberus, a criminal organization, not to the Alliance.

[I Tsunayoshi I]

Well, the worst that could have happened was that the Turians or Humans or Cerberus would say no, and then beef up security measures.

 

Mind you, those governments and private organizations don't exactly have a right to a monopoly on the stealth drive either. There's no such things as a 'right' to national interest monopolies.

 

Like I said. The Salarians could have asked for access to the classified military technology, which the Turians and Alliance do have a right to withhold for their own security reasons. Either the attempts were made and denied, or the attempts were never made at all and the Salarian Union decided to go straight for the criminal means of getting what they wanted. Cerberus wasnt asked for **** more than likely, since the Normandy did come back with the IFF still installed. That would make it Alliance property and left at their discretion if they wanted to share it or not.

[Dean_the_Young]

Except they would have had to steal the specs long before the war had started to have built a fleet of ships that could use the stealth systems, meaning it was blatant theft with no excuse to fall back on. The war is irrelevant in regards to what the law demands here, especially with the categorical denial that the Reapers exist being the party line out of all Council Races bar the Alliance after the events of Arrival.

 

Question- does this law come before or after multiple attacks by the Alliance on the Batarian Hegemony, including massacres of scientists and an entire planet being wiped out? Because I think the laws about genocide matter a bit more than technological copy rights that have already been lost to state-designated terrorists.

 

What's the punishment for the Alliance and Turians going to be for that? After all, losing control of classified information is itself a criminal offense.

 

And its a bold faced lie. Nothing new that we have seen before from Bioware when it comes down to things they know are not supported in the games.

Wait, did you miss the point where he directly addressed that it wasn't, in fact, true?

[Bardox9]

A cure with Wreav in charge?? Nooooooo spank you. He is a warmonger with a pension for blowing things up with nukes. He won't let Bakara stop him from expanding and taking revenge on the other races. The influence of the female clans will disappear when all females of all clans can "pop 'em out" on a regular basis.

[Dean_the_Young]

Like I said. The Salarians could have asked for access to the classified military technology, which the Turians and Alliance do have a right to withhold for their own security reasons. Either the attempts were made and denied, or the attempts were never made at all and the Salarian Union decided to go straight for the criminal means of getting what they wanted. Cerberus wasnt asked for **** more than likely, since the Normandy did come back with the IFF still installed. That would make it Alliance property and left at their discretion if they wanted to share it or not.

 

The right of Turians and Humans to withhold a strategic technology for their own security interests is the same right for Salarians to pursue strategic technology for their own security interests. In both case the 'right' being cited is self-interest.

 

It's not like the Alliance doesn't go about stealing technology either, so it's a pretty hypocritical stance to make an international incident of... if anyone in the setting actually made any indication of making an international incident of it. Which they didn't.