359 réponses à ce sujet

[I Tsunayoshi I]

Calm down. Who said anything about a few weeks? They had two and a half years since Sovereign was destroyed to assess the threat and decide what they needed to do about it. Also, just because an upgrade in military hardware is widespread doesn't mean the designs are unclassified - think ICBMs.

All I asked for was your source that it was stolen.

 

And the order being given to STG had to happen within the 6 months between Arrival and ME3 starting because of the inclusion of the Reaper IFF in said orders. There is no way for them to have gotten any results from what they stole and build a full fleet in the timeframe they had. Meaning that I dont have to prove **** to you, since it seems like you dont care what I tell you since you are trying to make every excuse in the book for the Salarians while throwing everyone else under the bus.

 

Based on the war asset entry on Salarian's First Fleet, it took them months of research before they could acheive any result. Add to that the time needed to upgrade a whole fleet and a dreadnought and, yeah, the salarian had to start their espionage on the SR-2 many months before the Reapers actually came in.

 

 

Problem is: mere 6 months before the Reapers attacked, the SR-2 still belonged to Cerberus, a criminal organization, not to the Alliance.

 

With Arrival being the start of that 6 month period of time, the Alliance would have come into possession of the SR-2 when Shepard was taken into custody. Again, Cerberus would have had no say at all in the matter.

[I Tsunayoshi I]

Wait, did you miss the point where he directly addressed that it wasn't, in fact, true?

 

You mean the statement that a writer made that is directly and blatantly contradicted by the games? Yeah I saw that. I already pointed out why it couldnt be true.

[Dean_the_Young]

You mean the statement that a writer made that is directly and blatantly contradicted by the games? Yeah I saw that. I already pointed out why it couldnt be true.

 

No you didn't, as a matter of fact. You made a claim and... well, that's about it, actually.

[I Tsunayoshi I]

No you didn't, as a matter of fact. You made a claim and... well, that's about it, actually.

 

So the fact that only one Quarian was ever on the Normandy and the only means to reverse engineer the tech is just a claim... I need to find a wall stud if I really need to explain why the tech wasnt straight up given to them by the Turians as Weeks claimed.

[DeinonSlayer]

And the order being given to STG had to happen within the 6 months between Arrival and ME3 starting because of the inclusion of the Reaper IFF in said orders. There is no way for them to have gotten any results from what they stole and build a full fleet in the timeframe they had. Meaning that I dont have to prove **** to you, since it seems like you dont care what I tell you since you are trying to make every excuse in the book for the Salarians while throwing everyone else under the bus.

Again, source?

And how was anyone thrown under the bus by their doing so? They, along with allies both more and less proactive, are threatened with total extinction. Improving their war-making ability helps everyone. Against this kind of threat, I'd want to see information sharing so as to have as many people as possible as well-equipped as possible to deal with it when hell shows up at their door. What benefit is there to keeping technologies capable of augmenting the abilities of entire fleets secret in this scenario? The Normandy benefitted greatly from this method.

As was noted elsewhere, TIM encourages Saren to prepare his people. I'm not saying they didn't do it. I'm asking, how is this a problem?

[I Tsunayoshi I]

Again, source?

And how was anyone thrown under the bus by their doing so? They, along with allies both more and less proactive, are threatened with total extinction. Improving their war-making ability helps everyone. Against this kind of threat, I'd want to see information sharing so as to have as many people as possible as well-equipped as possible to deal with it when hell shows up at their door. What benefit is there to keeping technologies capable of augmenting the abilities of entire fleets secret in this scenario?

As was noted elsewhere, TIM encourages Saren to prepare his people.

 

I'm done arguing with you. You are effectively pushing garbage that isnt supported anywhere in the game as an excuse for why the Salarians should be excused for what they did. You refuse to accept that the Salarians never made an honest attempt to get what they wanted, that the STG was ordered to procure, aka fancy word for steal, designs that they had no right to access, and you threw every other motherfucking race under the bus in the process by pointing out their own so called 'crimes.' You've no leg to stand on, you know it, and your argument solely relies on someone being stupid enough to ignore the fallacies you are using to defend your utter and complete lack of a legitimate defense.

[DeinonSlayer]

I'm done arguing with you. You are effectively pushing garbage that isnt supported anywhere in the game as an excuse for why the Salarians should be excused for what they did. You refuse to accept that the Salarians never made an honest attempt to get what they wanted, that the STG was ordered to procure, aka fancy word for steal, designs that they had no right to access, and you threw every other motherfucking race under the bus in the process by pointing out their own so called 'crimes.' You've no leg to stand on, you know it, and your argument solely relies on someone being stupid enough to ignore the fallacies you are using to defend your utter and complete lack of a legitimate defense.

I've never said they didn't do it. I'm asking how this is a bad thing given what's happening. If you can't answer that, there's no point to perpetuating the discussion.

...source?

[Dean_the_Young]

So the fact that only one Quarian was ever on the Normandy and the only means to reverse engineer the tech is just a claim... I need to find a wall stud if I really need to explain why the tech wasnt straight up given to them by the Turians as Weeks claimed.

Banging your head might help you, yes, because right now you're arguing that a technology transfer couldn't happen off-screen because... well, you haven't given a reason why it couldn't happen off screen. So you're just repeating a claim.

[Dean_the_Young]

I'm done arguing with you. You are effectively pushing garbage that isnt supported anywhere in the game as an excuse for why the Salarians should be excused for what they did. You refuse to accept that the Salarians never made an honest attempt to get what they wanted, that the STG was ordered to procure, aka fancy word for steal, designs that they had no right to access, and you threw every other motherfucking race under the bus in the process by pointing out their own so called 'crimes.' You've no leg to stand on, you know it, and your argument solely relies on someone being stupid enough to ignore the fallacies you are using to defend your utter and complete lack of a legitimate defense.

 

That's some impressive self-criticism there.

[I Tsunayoshi I]

Banging your head might help you, yes, because right now you're arguing that a technology transfer couldn't happen off-screen because... well, you haven't given a reason why it couldn't happen off screen. So you're just repeating a claim.

 

Gonna need a 4x4 after this because I thought this would have been ****** obvious.

 

THERE IS NO REASON TO REVERSE ENGINEER ANYTHING YOU HAVE THE DESIGNS FOR.

 

Seriously. If you have the designs, just ****** build the goddamn **** to the given specs and be done with it. Reverse engineering is only needed when you dont have the designs and have to make your own based on the proof of concept. Tali is the only Quarian ever to see this proof of concept in action, period. If anything the only baseless claim is coming from Weeks. His claim is contradicted by in game materials and requires that people take him solely at his word because of the timing he claims said exchange happened being entirely uncovered by any other medium used outside of the game for Mass Effect lore.

[guigaccess]

With Arrival being the start of that 6 month period of time, the Alliance would have come into possession of the SR-2 when Shepard was taken into custody. Again, Cerberus would have had no say at all in the matter.

You are missing the point. The thing is not if Cerberus would have a word on it or not, but that the SR-2 was not an alliance ship. It was Cerberus. Spying on the ship of a criminal organization is not a crime. And as you made so clear, it is not like the salarian could do everything they did in a few time, so they most likely started all this prior to the Alliance getting their hands on the SR-2.

 

The only the salarian could only get in the last 6 months was the Reaper IFF and there were many ways to get that since Cerberus had that with them and the Reaper IFF doesn't "belong" to the humans.

 

 

Or should Shepard be imprisoned after ME1 for stealing the Normandy?

Are you implying Shepard is a salarian?

[Bardox9]

It doesn't say anywhere that the tech was actually stolen. It just says they "procured" it. I can't see TIM handing over the SR-2's designs or the IFF to the STG. The Alliance on the other hand, well that's a toss up. They did probably steal it, espionage is what they do after all. In any event, the procurement and development could only have happened AFTER the SR-2 was in Alliance hands. Thus it would have had to happen within the 6 month time window of Shepard's house arrest or whatever that was.

[Daemul]

You would have thought that after the ME3 ending fiasco when the devs continuously contradicted themselves and even each other on Twitter people would stop putting stock into anything they say. They aren't interested in passing facts, only in telling people what they want to hear, even if it's contradicted by in game lore.

[I Tsunayoshi I]

You are missing the point. The thing is not if Cerberus would have a word on it or not, but that the SR-2 was not an alliance ship. It was Cerberus. Spying on the ship of a criminal organization is not a crime. And as you made so clear, it is not like the salarian could do everything they did in a few time, so they most likely started all this prior to the Alliance getting their hands on the SR-2.

 

The only the salarian could only get in the last 6 months was the Reaper IFF and there were many ways to get that since Cerberus had that with them and the Reaper IFF doesn't "belong" to the humans.

 

If the STG got their hands on the Stealth System specs + the IFF before Arrival, then they would have had a very slim window to do so before Shepard launched the Suicide Mission. Implausible, but the only viable timeframe for them to steal the info they were ordered to get without being in breach of galactic law would have been in that small window between the IFF having been debugged (FUBAR situation waiting to happen if they got it before the Collector raid on the SR-2) and the Alpha Relay being destroyed.

 

It doesn't say anywhere that the tech was actually stolen. It just says they "procured" it. I can't see TIM handing over the SR-2's designs or the IFF to the STG. The Alliance on the other hand, well that's a toss up. They did probably steal it, espionage is what they do after all. In any event, the procurement and development could only have happened AFTER the SR-2 was in Alliance hands. Thus it would have had to happen within the 6 month time window of Shepard's house arrest or whatever that was.

 

As I stated before, procure is just a fancy word to steal in this situation. If the Salarians could have actually gotten the access they wanted by asking, they wouldnt have needed the STG in the first place as diplomacy would have been more than enough to get an agreement from the Turians and Alliance in that position.

[DeinonSlayer]

Just to be clear, Tsunayoshi: Salarians augmenting dreadnoughts with stealth tech, good thing. Quarians arming up to the best of their ability, Farixen or no, good thing. Asari hiding Prothean beacon in the interest of protecting their image, bad thing. Cerberus copying and improving Normandy SR-1 designs, good thing. Krogan holding the entire war effort hostage for the sake of a genophage cure which they don't need and which threatens to unbalance them as a species by undermining Wrex's reforms, bad thing. Garrus upgrading Normandy with Thanix tech while Turians augment their own fleet, good thing. "Good" in this context being that which is beneficial to the war effort.

You've offered no source saying the Salarians stole it. Even if they did, so what? How, on the eve of a Reaper invasion, is this bad?

[I Tsunayoshi I]

Just to be clear, Tsunayoshi: Salarians augmenting dreadnoughts with stealth tech, good thing. Quarians arming up to the best of their ability and acting to free up their fleet for the fight, good thing. Asari hiding Prothean beacon in the interest of protecting their image, bad thing. Cerberus copying and improving Normandy SR-1 designs, good thing. Krogan holding the entire war effort hostage for the sake of a genophage cure which threatens to unbalance them as a species by undermining Wrex's reforms, bad thing. Garrus upgrading Normandy with Thanix tech while Turians augment their own fleet, good thing. "Good" in this context being that which is beneficial to the war effort.

You've offered no source saying the Salarians stole it. Even if they did, so what? How, on the eve of a Reaper invasion, is this bad?

 

Good things can come from criminal acts. Doesnt make said acts right.

 

Of course, the entirety of your post is just another reskin'd excuse for the Salarians to steal something that the Turians and Alliance clearly believed they didnt need to have access to, and I've yet to see you admit that the STG's timeframe to get said information had little to no time to do so without creating a major incident. But go on. Keep being an apologist for the galaxies best liars and denying that they stole something to prepare for a war with beings they refused to acknowledge as real.

[Bardox9]

They aren't interested in passing facts, only in telling people what they want to hear, even if it's contradicted by in game lore.

 You are asking for facts is a work of fiction?? Dude...

 

As I stated before, procure is just a fancy word to steal in this situation. If the Salarians could have actually gotten the access they wanted by asking, they wouldnt have needed the STG in the first place as diplomacy would have been more than enough to get an agreement from the Turians and Alliance in that position.

 

Agreed. Can't see the reason for getting the STG involved if all the Salarians did was ask for the info. Don't like the Salarians anyway. They ignore their own rules placed on the "lesser" races and open up the relay to the Rachni systems. Rachni wars begin. They uplift a primative race, the Krogan, to fix their mistake and destroy an entire race. After they have served their purpose, the Salarians try to push the brutes back down the whole they pulled them out off and the Krogan push back. Another galactic mistake that eventually turns into another war and a plague that causes millions if not billions of children to be still born every year. Not even going to get started on the crap we find on Sur'Kesh. As a race, they are just horrible horrible people.

[guigaccess]

If the STG got their hands on the Stealth System specs + the IFF before Arrival, then they would have had a very slim window to do so before Shepard launched the Suicide Mission. Implausible, but the only viable timeframe for them to steal the info they were ordered to get without being in breach of galactic law would have been in that small window between the IFF having been debugged (FUBAR situation waiting to happen if they got it before the Collector raid on the SR-2) and the Alpha Relay being destroyed.

There is nothing telling if the STG got the stealth system and the IFF at the same time or even from the same source. Maybe they got the stealth long ago and the IFF in the last 6 months? There is no way to know, so there is no need to assume the worst possible scenario.

 

Regarding the stealth system, even though the Normandy belonged to the Alliance, once the stealth system "leaked" it would be no crime if the salarian managed to get the information as well (if I am wrong, someone correct me). We know Cerberus had the information since they built the SR-2. We know the quarians also had.

 

Regarding the Reaper IFF, it never belonged to the Alliance or anyone. The humanity can't claim to have any right over it. And as we know, Cerberus had the code. The STG could have stolen it from Cerberus, not from the SR-2 directly.

 

 

The only crime here would be spying on and stealing from an Alliance ship, but the STG had plenty of time and sources to get both the stealth system and the IFF without resorting to that, specially if we consider the SR-2 didn't belong to the Alliance some months ago.

[Bardox9]

Just to be clear, Tsunayoshi: Salarians augmenting dreadnoughts with stealth tech, good thing. Quarians arming up to the best of their ability, Farixen or no, good thing. Asari hiding Prothean beacon in the interest of protecting their image, bad thing. Cerberus copying and improving Normandy SR-1 designs, good thing. Krogan holding the entire war effort hostage for the sake of a genophage cure which they don't need and which threatens to unbalance them as a species by undermining Wrex's reforms, bad thing. Garrus upgrading Normandy with Thanix tech while Turians augment their own fleet, good thing. "Good" in this context being that which is beneficial to the war effort.

You've offered no source saying the Salarians stole it. Even if they did, so what? How, on the eve of a Reaper invasion, is this bad?

 

Espionage, obtaining information through illegal methods, on allies in general is a d*ck move. Not cool man.

 

No proof it was espionage, but that is what the STG does best. If they got the tech through proper channels the STG would not have been the ones to get it.

[DeinonSlayer]

Good things can come from criminal acts. Doesnt make said acts right.

Of course, the entirety of your post is just another reskin'd excuse for the Salarians to steal something that the Turians and Alliance clearly believed they didnt need to have access to, and I've yet to see you admit that the STG's timeframe to get said information had little to no time to do so without creating a major incident. But go on. Keep being an apologist for the galaxies best liars and denying that they stole something to prepare for a war with beings they refused to publicly acknowledge as real.

Fixed.

Perhaps it is. You still haven't established that it was stolen, but even if it was, on the eve of a Reaper invasion, I don't care. I'd rather an international effort to deflect another Chicxulub heading towards Earth didn't fail because someone wanted to protect a patent. Enjoy your Thanix canon. Don't cross the streams.

Funny how you attack this (beneficial-though-possibly-unethical) development yet defend the Geth's (detrimental and unethical) inaction against the heretics tooth and nail. Just trying to gauge your priorities.

[DeinonSlayer]

Espionage, obtaining information through illegal methods, on allies in general is a d*ck move. Not cool man.
 
No proof it was espionage, but that is what the STG does best. If they got the tech through proper channels the STG would not have been the ones to get it.

Never said it was cool. In peacetime, I'd be just as pissed about it. But faced with mutual extinction?

Does it help us? Yes. Does it harm their allies? No - we, too, benefit from it here. Good.

Never said we weren't cutting corners. Extraordinary circumstances.

[I Tsunayoshi I]

Fixed.

Perhaps it is. You still haven't established that it was stolen, but even if it was, on the eve of a Reaper invasion, I don't care. I'd rather an international effort to deflect another Chicxulub heading towards Earth didn't fail because someone wanted to protect a patent. Enjoy your Thanix canon. Don't cross the streams.

Funny how you attack this (beneficial-though-possibly-unethical) development yet defend the Geth's (detrimental and unethical) inaction against the heretics tooth and nail. Just trying to gauge your priorities.

 

The True Geth may have been naive in letting the Hieratics go, I'll admit that, but it was hardly detrimental to them (again amicable split) and the claim of being unethical seems like an extreme reach considering how the Geth Consensus works.

[DeinonSlayer]

The True Geth may have been naive in letting the Hieratics go, I'll admit that, but it was hardly detrimental to them (again amicable split) and the claim of being unethical seems like an extreme reach considering how the Geth Consensus works.

"We never wished to harm organics, but we're comfortable with letting those geth do it for years on end and letting everyone think it was us."

Roommate: "I'm gonna get an Uzi and go down to Burger King!"
Other roommate: "OK, cool." *plays Angry Birds*

Yes, unethical. Detrimental in that the heretics damned near won at the Citadel - relays go down, kiss the galaxy goodbye. Convictions mean nothing unless you back them up.

[I Tsunayoshi I]

"We never wished to harm organics, but we're comfortable with letting those geth do it for years on end and letting everyone think it was us."

Roommate: "I'm gonna get an Uzi and go down to Burger King!"
Other roommate: "OK, cool." *plays Angry Birds*

Yes, unethical. Detrimental in that the heretics damned near won at the Citadel - relays go down, kiss the galaxy goodbye. Convictions mean nothing unless you back them up.

 

At this point I have to ask if ethics is something a synthetic race even could understand. Sure its not ethical from an organic standpoint, but does it even register for the Geth.

[DeinonSlayer]

At this point I have to ask if ethics is something a synthetic race even could understand. Sure its not ethical from an organic standpoint, but does it even register for the Geth.

Interesting question, but another question is how much it really matters in terms of how we interact with them. Slavery may be a function of Batarian culture, but that doesn't mean we should tolerate it when they raid our colonies.