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ME3 Wreav and the genophage


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#351
I Tsunayoshi I

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Interesting question, but another question is how much it really matters in terms of how we interact with them. Slavery may be a function of Batarian culture, but that doesn't mean we should tolerate it when they raid our colonies.

 

I think that is a bit off base, since slavery is accepted as a universally bad thing. Something the Geth are aware of in regards to organics.

 

Ethics though, not quite sure that is something they understand seeing as they did just let the Heretics walk away with no strings attached  



#352
DeinonSlayer

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I think that is a bit off base, since slavery is accepted as a universally bad thing. Something the Geth are aware of in regards to organics.
 
Ethics though, not quite sure that is something they understand seeing as they did just let the Heretics walk away with no strings attached

Rejection of slavery is itself an application of ethics, though. Genocide is worse - but, again, ethics.

(To be fair, there are plenty of instances where death would be a mercy compared to what slaves live through)

I guess a big problem I have with the way they wrote Legion's arc is that we never get to call the true Geth out for letting the heretics do that. We can call them out on making no efforts to make peace with their creators, though.

#353
I Tsunayoshi I

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Rejection of slavery is itself an application of ethics, though. Genocide is worse - but, again, ethics.

(To be fair, there are plenty of instances where death would be a mercy compared to what slaves live through)

I guess a big problem I have with the way they wrote Legion's arc is that we never get to call the true Geth out for letting the heretics do that. We can call them out on making no efforts to make peace with their creators, though.

 

I'm bugged more by the one sided story that Legion feeds you while in the server. Geth as a whole, I doubt they could deceive a coffee maker into thinking its a toaster. Legion, I could expect him to not be completely forthcoming, and we do see him pulling that with the Reaper upgrades.

 

EDIT: Then again, lets not forget the Quarians tried to take out the Geth Dreadnaught with Shepard still on board. Bet the assholes thought they could get a free ship by killing Shep off



#354
DeinonSlayer

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I'm bugged more by the one sided story that Legion feeds you while in the server. Geth as a whole, I doubt they could deceive a coffee maker into thinking its a toaster. Legion, I could expect him to not be completely forthcoming, and we do see him pulling that with the Reaper upgrades.

EDIT: Then again, lets not forget the Quarians tried to take out the Geth Dreadnaught with Shepard still on board. Bet the assholes thought they could get a free ship by killing Shep off

Yeah, gotta take it with a grain of salt - he has a vested interest in earning Shepard's sympathy and complete control over what to show you. Calls back to what he says on Heretic Station if Shepard initially supports the rewrite (renegade).

"The minds of both forms of life can be shaped. Organics require time and effort. For synthetics, the replacement of a data file is the only requirement."

EDIT: Not gonna get into the dreadnought argument again. Suffice to say, I believe Gerrel did the right thing, even if he was an ass about it.

#355
I Tsunayoshi I

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Yeah, gotta take it with a grain of salt - he has a vested interest in earning Shepard's sympathy and complete control over what to show you. Calls back to what he says on Heretic Station if Shepard initially supports the rewrite (renegade).

"The minds of both forms of life can be shaped. Organics require time and effort. For synthetics, the replacement of a data file is the only requirement."

 

There is no paragon or renegade option on the Heretic Station at the end. Both are so ****** gray that they dont help the Geth as a whole in either regard. You either bolster their numbers, which makes their decision in 3 easier, or you destroy them and make the Geth dumber as a whole, which by extension makes their decision in 3 easier.



#356
DeinonSlayer

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There is no paragon or renegade option on the Heretic Station at the end. Both are so ****** gray that they dont help the Geth as a whole in either regard. You either bolster their numbers, which makes their decision in 3 easier, or you destroy them and make the Geth dumber as a whole, which by extension makes their decision in 3 easier.

I had actually written up an entire alternate Rannoch arc (which, I think, stayed truer to Chris E'toile's vision of the Geth rather than the metal Pinocchios they became in ME3). The basic idea was that you choose which order to complete priority missions - if you do the Genophage first, things pretty much happen as we see in-game; alternately, you could intercept the Quarians before they went to war, but the bomb goes off on Tuchanka in the meantime. I can PM it to you if you'd care to read it.

*clears throat* So, yeah... how about Wreav and the genophage?

#357
Kabooooom

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There is no paragon or renegade option on the Heretic Station at the end. Both are so ****** gray that they dont help the Geth as a whole in either regard. You either bolster their numbers, which makes their decision in 3 easier, or you destroy them and make the Geth dumber as a whole, which by extension makes their decision in 3 easier.


This decision was one of the harder ones for me in the series. Heretic Station is colossal - 6.6 million geth minds, several million geth mobile platforms, a likely large number of geth starships docked there - morality of rewriting them aside (its immoral, theres no argument about that, but the reapers overshadow that completely) IF the rewrite worked, they would be considerable allies against the Reapers by number alone. If it didn't...considerable foes to organics by number alone.

I destroyed them. There were too many unknowns with rewriting them.

And honestly, rewriting them should have netted the renegade points - not destroying them. Wtf was that nonsense.

#358
Farangbaa

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(its immoral, theres no argument about that, but the reapers overshadow that completely) 

 

"No two species are identical. All must be judged on their own merits. Treating every species like one's own is racist. Even benign anthropomorphism." -Legion.



#359
Kabooooom

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"No two species are identical. All must be judged on their own merits. Treating every species like one's own is racist. Even benign anthropomorphism." -Legion.

I don't think that quote really applies here, like at all. A) morality is relative, yes, and largely dependent on species societal constructs but B ) Shepard was the one making the choice, not judging a choice the geth made by human morals. And since Legion gave him exactly zero input on whether the geth consider a mass brainwashing of sorts to be ethical, or whether the geth even HAVE a sense of ethics (future scenes imply they do, albeit an alien one), Shepard had to make the decision within the framework of human morality. That last part is the important bit. Shepard had no input from the species of which the decision influenced on whether the species considered one choice more ethical than another, therefore Shepard has to make the choice using his own ethics or randomly pick because of moral relativism (which is illogical, if not idiotic).

Also, I have a hard time believing that anyone would have no moral misgivings about force rewriting the heretics en masse, unless they viewed the geth as mindless automatons that dont deserve any sort of rights provided to sapient beings. Which some people do, for some reason, as I've seen them argue their rather shaky positions on these boards several times.

#360
I Tsunayoshi I

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This decision was one of the harder ones for me in the series. Heretic Station is colossal - 6.6 million geth minds, several million geth mobile platforms, a likely large number of geth starships docked there - morality of rewriting them aside (its immoral, theres no argument about that, but the reapers overshadow that completely) IF the rewrite worked, they would be considerable allies against the Reapers by number alone. If it didn't...considerable foes to organics by number alone.

I destroyed them. There were too many unknowns with rewriting them.

And honestly, rewriting them should have netted the renegade points - not destroying them. Wtf was that nonsense.

 

Like I said. Both choices are ****** gray as hell. Both do no actual good for the Geth and both lead to a huge problem in 3