359 réponses à ce sujet

[KaiserShep]

I don't think the Dalatrass was a moron; she was just really annoying, and in the case of Wrex, had a traitor recording her conversation.

[congokong]

I don't think the Dalatrass was a moron; she was just really annoying, and in the case of Wrex, had a traitor recording her conversation.

She was a straw-man meant to appeal to gamers' emotional appeal to aid an impossible task; that curing the genophage would somehow work out in the long run.

 

As for Wreav, I cannot tell from the Powerpoint slides for certain but I read he kills Eve for getting in his way. It certainly makes sense. When an aggressor and pacifist come to blows if the pacifist doesn't become an aggressor themselves they are doomed. Eve's ideas were weak anyway. Suggesting things like "not having children" to stop Wreav from war is absurd.

[I Tsunayoshi I]

She was a straw-man meant to appeal to gamers' emotional appeal to aid an impossible task; that curing the genophage would somehow work out in the long run.

 

As for Wreav, I cannot tell from the Powerpoint slides for certain but I read he kills Eve for getting in his way. It certainly makes sense. When an aggressor and pacifist come to blows if the pacifist doesn't become an aggressor themselves they are doomed. Eve's ideas were weak anyway. Suggesting things like "not having children" to stop Wreav from war is absurd.

 

And what exactly did you read that said that?

[ImaginaryMatter]

I don't think the Dalatrass was a moron; she was just really annoying, and in the case of Wrex, had a traitor recording her conversation.

 

Maybe; although I think if she wanted to convince Shepard to not pursue that course of action she would have gone with something along the lines of ME2 Mordin's more reasonable and sympathetic defense, rather than her current tirade.

[KaiserShep]

I agree with that, but the voice alone made me want to toss something out of the airlock.

[Ryriena]

Maybe; although I think if she wanted to convince Shepard to not pursue that course of action she would have gone with something along the lines of ME2 Mordin's more reasonable and sympathetic defense, rather than her current tirade.

I tend too agree, I myself thought Mordin's reasons came out sensibly great. My Shepard normally disagrees with him but at least I understood, where he was coming from with his response. With her argument she puts it in a racist tone that make it's seem less rational.

[Daemul]

Maybe; although I think if she wanted to convince Shepard to not pursue that course of action she would have gone with something along the lines of ME2 Mordin's more reasonable and sympathetic defense, rather than her current tirade.

 

 

I agree with that, but the voice alone made me want to toss something out of the airlock.

 

 

I tend too agree, I myself thought Mordin's reasons came out sensibly great. My Shepard normally disagrees with him but at least I understood, where he was coming from with his response. With her argument she puts it in a racist tone that make it's seem less rational.

 

LOL! Bioware didn't want you to agree with her, that's the point. She's a shrill and irrational racist, who is rude and condescending in her conversations with Shepard, you're meant to hate her and ignore everything she says, she's a walking straw man. She's not the only one who Bioware pulled that trick with in ME3.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

I guess Wrex and Wreav will be in awe that they have to deal with each other now that the Genophage is cured...of course, Wreav's more jelly!

 

Over 9000!

 

I had to say it.

 

Been there. EMS over 9000. Same crappy ending. Your war assets at work.

[themikefest]

I only cured it just to say I did, otherwise, I don't. Even with Wrex and Eve around, I'm sure there will be other clans that will want to kill them both and seek revenge. Why should I believe anything Wrex and Eve say? I would like to hear from other Krogan. In over a thousand plus years of having the genophage, the Krogan have made no effort in rebuilding or doing anything that would convince the other species to cure the genophage.

 

Not curing it, I get more assets from the Salarians for the war effort in fighting the reapers. Thats all I care about.

[congokong]

I only cured it just to say I did, otherwise, I don't. Even with Wrex and Eve around, I'm sure there will be other clans that will want to kill them both and seek revenge. Why should I believe anything Wrex and Eve say? I would like to hear from other Krogan. In over a thousand plus years of having the genophage, the Krogan have made no effort in rebuilding or doing anything that would convince the other species to cure the genophage.

 

Not curing it, I get more assets from the Salarians for the war effort in fighting the reapers. Thats all I care about.

 

Anyone who believes that curing the genophage can work out with Wrex and Eve in charge is delirious. They're just a red herring. Wrex and Eve are supposed to guide the entire krogan race into peaceful coexistence ..forever? They're going to regulate their 1000 offspring per year population ...how? Not the genophage apparently since the argument is for curing it. Whatever trick they have up their sleeve, they should teach it to the human race. At barely one offspring per year in a technologically advanced world that pales that of the ME universe, humans cannot even regulate their own population.

[I Tsunayoshi I]

Anyone who believes that curing the genophage can work out with Wrex and Eve in charge is delirious. They're just a red herring. Wrex and Eve are supposed to guide the entire krogan race into peaceful coexistence ..forever? They're going to regulate their 1000 offspring per year population ...how? Not the genophage apparently since the argument is for curing it. Whatever trick they have up their sleeve, they should teach it to the human race. At barely one offspring per year in a technologically advanced world that pales that of the ME universe, humans cannot even regulate their own population.

 

How is it delirious when Wrex explains in ME2 just what happens when a clan decides to go against united clans under Urdnot? If the man can keep things under control with ease there (Even goes as far as showing mercy to Clan Wyrlock by taking in their women and children despite the fact the clan was planning a coup against him. You just wanna assume that Wrex is just so ****** incompetent that the only 'right' option is genocide.

 

I dont like Massive's argument for sabotaging the genophage, but at least he does it based on what is shown in game. You are doing it because of xenophobic bigotry.

[Kabooooom]

Personally, I think not curing the genophage at all is a good idea regardless of who's in charge, but I really need that Krogan-Turian alliance and take what they have to offer. Granted, if the Krogan try anything, I won't hesitate to put them down for good this time.

I agree. I only cure the genophage because I need the Krogan-Turian alliance for the war effort. If I didn't, then I never would as I agree with the basic premise of it. Similarly, I also would never have given the Geth uploaded Reaper code if it wasn't for needing their help against the Reapers. Had that war happened under different circumstances, they would not have survived in my Shepard's story.

[congokong]

How is it delirious when Wrex explains in ME2 just what happens when a clan decides to go against united clans under Urdnot? If the man can keep things under control with ease there (Even goes as far as showing mercy to Clan Wyrlock by taking in their women and children despite the fact the clan was planning a coup against him. You just wanna assume that Wrex is just so ****** incompetent that the only 'right' option is genocide.

 

I dont like Massive's argument for sabotaging the genophage, but at least he does it based on what is shown in game. You are doing it because of xenophobic bigotry.

"Xenophobic bigotry?" For a fictional race? And your mentioned system only applies to a krogan living with the genophage underground on that one radioactive planet Tuchanka. And it addresses regulating that massive default birth rate and all its new krogan ...how?

 

My argument is based on reason. A poster named PirateMouse sums up my thoughts best.

 

---

 

"Well, since this thread has risen from its grave, I will reiterate my own take on this, which is very similar actually to Dean's: to wit, hell no I wouldn't cure it, and in fact I'd go to the same extreme lengths I went to in order to stop the Reapers to prevent a cure, because it's a similarly galaxy-level threat.  I wouldn't even cure it if krogan culture changed, because honestly I don't care what your culture is like, 1,000 viable births per year times about 1,000 years per krogan female with each offspring living potentially around 1,000 years as well is a recipe for unqualified, unmitigated disaster the likes of which we cannot truly even properly comprehend.

At most, I would consider a reworking of the genophage, but that was never given in-game as an option.  Frankly, I would wipe out every single last krogan before I'd outright cure the genophage if for some reason those were my only two options ... because that would ultimately be a choice between genocide of one species (krogans) or genocide of all non-krogans.

From there, I'll just repost my response to this topic before, which began with my feelings about the Dalatrass:

The Dalatrass is not really a character in the game; she's just a poorly disguised strawman propped up by Bioware's writers to attempt to make an irrational position more sympathetic. The angry, dismissive attitude, the way she suggests the krogan are no longer "useful" ... she could have been wearing a black top hat and twirling a pencil-thin moustache, and it wouldn't have looked out of place.

She's a symptom of what the writers pull throughout that arc, using cheap emotional tricks to manipulate and pressure the player at every turn ... and small wonder. They faced an impossible task, to present an argument that outright curing the genophage would be a good idea in spite of everything we knew (or at least could know) by then about the krogans and their horrifyingly rapid default birthrate.

Logic and reason were against them, so they resorted to the one thing they had left: emotional appeal. And don't underestimate emotional appeal! Such a powerful thing it is, so insidious and seductive. Just reading these forums, you can quickly get a sense for how easily most people are roped into terrible decisions if you tug at their emotions in the right ways. It's an excellent illustration of why the kind of power to make such enormous decisions does not belong in the hands of most people ... not so much just because power corrupts but because emotional appeal easily tempts most people into using that power in terribly short-sighted ways.

My favorite part is when people say things like, "If Wrex is in charge, it'll be fine." "I trust Wrex." "Cure if Wrex is in charge, sabotage otherwise."

In reality, Wrex being in power (yes, even with Eve there too) is a red herring.

Think about it: ONE krogan is supposed to not only change the behavior of all krogan forever but also somehow change them so much that they're able to, as a total species, self-regulate their entire population ... forever? Even though no species, including our own, has ever been able to do this as a total species? It would be an utterly ridiculous notion even if the krogan were a peaceful and enlightened species! Animals simply don't manage their reproduction in this way -- not even the sapient ones like humans.

It's moot, of course. Wrex loses power about five minutes after the war with the Reapers is won.

Or weren't you paying attention? His power base was built around control of access to fertile females. That evaporated the moment you cured the genophage, and once they no longer have a big bad enemy to fight to keep their attention, the other krogan are going to realize this. Since Wrex's ideas were hardly popular, most of them will probably abandon him overnight. Even though some may choose to remain loyal, the real force behind his unification and reformation effort is gone -- it no longer has teeth. And his relatively peaceful krogan will most likely be quickly wiped out by another more aggressive "traditional" clan.

Basically, Wrex has always been doomed. He dies on Virmire if you can't talk him down (and this is actually the best possible outcome since it makes it possible to talk Mordin down later), he dies on the Citadel if you sabotage the genophage cure, and he most likely dies later amidst the shattered remnants of his no-longer-relevant clan if you cure the genophage. Viewed from that perspective, his death can be seen as an unfortunate but inevitable consequence of his blind obsession.

I sabotaged the cure ... not because the Dalatrass was convincing but because it's simply the right thing to do. I was there to protect the galaxy, not doom it."

[I Tsunayoshi I]

So now your illogical choice to **** the Krogan always without fail is being defended by claiming that the game is full of **** and lying its ass off 110% of the way in showing that the Krogan were not attempting to backstab the one Krogan that gave enough of a damn to bring them back to the galactic community.

 

Not even going to argue with ya since your logic is beyond bad just because you are claiming the game is entirely wrong.

[congokong]

So now your illogical choice to **** the Krogan always without fail is being defended by claiming that the game is full of **** and lying its ass off 110% of the way in showing that the Krogan were not attempting to backstab the one Krogan that gave enough of a damn to bring them back to the galactic community.

 

Not even going to argue with ya since your logic is beyond bad just because you are claiming the game is entirely wrong.

You don't know what logic is. But I'm with you on the "not even going to argue" part. Let's just end it here.

[General TSAR]

"Xenophobic bigotry?" For a fictional race? 

Welcome to BSN.

[Kabooooom]

@Congokong, I generally agree with all of what that poster said with regards to the genophage, but with one exception - the Reaper war changes everything. Just as the Krogan were used as tools against the Rachni, I needed them to fight against the Reapers.

It took the Reapers 200 years to fully conquer the Protheans, and that's when their plan worked perfectly. Don't metagame, and consider what Shepard could feasibly know - the Krogan birth rate is formidable, and the Reaper war may last a really, really damn long time. Thus, they are perfect allies and weapons. We couldn't ask for better ones.

Not curing the genophage under those conditions is dangerously shortsighted. Total certain extinction is not preferable over possible extinction post-war due to a Krogan dominated galaxy. Similarly, curing the genophage in the absence of the Reaper war is likewise dangerously shortsighted.

And I do agree that anyone who thinks the post-war, cured-genophage galactic landscape will be all sunshine and pyjacks for all time and never result in a second Krogan Rebellion, solely because Wrex is in charge, is foolish.

[AlexMBrennan]

Not curing it, I get more assets from the Salarians for the war effort in fighting the reapers. Thats all I care about.

Sorry, but you've got that wrong: Curing the genophage is the renegade decision - you need the turian fleet, which means you need krogan infantry for Palaven, which in turn requires you to cure the genophage. Conversely, risking a Reaper victory because you are scared of what the krogan might do in a hundred years time is just stupid - they currently have no fleets, are not smart enough to build spaceships and I'm sure the salerians will come up with genophage 2.0 if they think that the krogans might become another problem. 

[congokong]

@Kaboom

 

Can the krogan even build their numbers to formidable levels while the reapers obliterate everything. And how many years will that take? If they're just needing krogan as cannon fodder, wouldn't it be better to just tank breed them to fighting age?

 

 

 

Sorry, but you've got that wrong: Curing the genophage is the renegade decision - you need the turian fleet, which means you need krogan infantry for Palaven, which in turn requires you to cure the genophage. Conversely, risking a Reaper victory because you are scared of what the krogan might do in a hundred years time is just stupid - they currently have no fleets, are not smart enough to build spaceships and I'm sure the salerians will come up with genophage 2.0 if they think that the krogans might become another problem. 

By curing the genophage without meta-gaming you assume you're losing salarian support. By sabotaging the cure you're getting salarian support and possibly krogan so long as they don't find out about the sabotage. That and the galactic security from a resurgent krogan assuming they actually survive the reapers makes an argument for sabotage very strong.

 

The idealistic/paragon decision is curing the genophage because it's based on idealism that the krogan will somehow not screw over the galaxy. It goes against trickery to achieve victory at any cost that is more renegade. Note: Javik who is the best example of a renegade suggests sabotaging the cure.

[KaiserShep]

The notion that curing the genophage could somehow *doom* the galaxy is hilarious. They simply do not have the capacity to do such a thing.

As for the salarians, that doesn't really address the turian's need for support. Without metagaming, sabotaging the cure runs the risk of losing them. I'd say that matters more than getting the frogs on board. But then, if the councilor survives the coup, you get some salarians anyway.

[TheOneTrueBioticGod]

Aren't Krogan immortal? I remember reading the Codex and seeing that since no Krogan has ever died of natural causes, their life expectancy is unknown. 

[I Tsunayoshi I]

Aren't Krogan immortal? I remember reading the Codex and seeing that since no Krogan has ever died of natural causes, their life expectancy is unknown. 

 

Probably due to the fact that they will die from being mercs or the environment on worlds similar to Tuchanka.

[congokong]

The notion that curing the genophage could somehow *doom* the galaxy is hilarious. They simply do not have the capacity to do such a thing.

As for the salarians, that doesn't really address the turian's need for support. Without metagaming, sabotaging the cure runs the risk of losing them. I'd say that matters more than getting the frogs on board. But then, if the councilor survives the coup, you get some salarians anyway.

They have the capacity to doom other species i.e. the galaxy.

 

As for the turians, maybe they'd be screwed without krogan support (and therefore earth would be without turians) but everyone would be sccrewed without the crucible working which the salarians offered to aid with as well as provide a fleet for earth. We also must consider if the krogans would keep their word by helping the turians once they get what they want. True, the same applies to the salarians but I'd trust the salarians to keep their end of a bargain over the krogan; especially Wreav.

[Kabooooom]

@Kaboom

Can the krogan even build their numbers to formidable levels while the reapers obliterate everything. And how many years will that take?

I think so, yes. Remember, the galaxy is a big place. Like unfathomably big. And the Reapers can't hit everywhere at once. There are plenty of worlds to hide some breeding operations on while the war rages. And considering a 1,000/year birth rate, 1,000 year life span and an extremely resilient physiology, it makes it possible to rebound their numbers to colossal levels in a comparatively short period of time compared to a possible length for a prolonged war (200 years for the Protheans). Not only that, but all of those attributes combined makes them FAR more valuable as troops than any other organic race, and their ability to rebound their population quickly makes it far more valuable to strategically cure the genophage than to sabotage it.

For now, that is. Had circumstances been different, I would fully support a sabotage. But I cant metagame around the strategic value of the cure. Which frustrates me, as I always supported the idea of the genophage and would otherwise never support curing it.

If they're just needing krogan as cannon fodder, wouldn't it be better to just tank breed them to fighting age?

Doing that would require expansive tank breeding facilities and the technology and infrastructure to support them during a massive galaxy-wide war.

Comparatively, all it would require if you cured the genophage would be gathering some krogan of opposite sexes and some mood music. Far simpler just to cure the damn thing and then resterilize them after the war. Or just not rebuild the relays to their colony worlds and tell them they can rejoin the galactic community when they can figure it out themselves, which would probably be a few thousand years after they invent Krogan birth control pills on their own. Problem solved.

Tongue-in-cheek about the Krogan birth control pills. Not about the mood music though.

[TheOneTrueBioticGod]

My only concern with curing the genophage,and it's a rather large one, is the birth rate.

EDI says that a Krogan can give birth to a thousand babies a year. While the effective rate is lower, there isn't enough space in the galaxy to provide for them. It would've been great to have the opportunity to compromise between Wrex and the Dalatrass and have a modified cure, to have the rate at human levels.