359 réponses à ce sujet

[congokong]

@Kaboom

You make considerable points but my argument was on what we know: the threat the genophage poses. ME never even addresses just how useful a cured krogan could really be against the reapers. The emphasis was on getting the current krogan onto Palaven. Not on using their children as fodder. What you're saying is assumed. Are tank breeding facilities less feasible then traditional reproducing? We don't really know. My argument was on what we did know. It's the same argument I made when I defend holding the fleets back to focus on Sovereign. Posters will give lengthy explanations with strategies that are never mentioned in-game on how it's a "good idea" to divert resources to save the council. But I make such arguments on in-game facts.

[Kabooooom]

My only concern with curing the genophage,and it's a rather large one, is the birth rate.

EDI says that a Krogan can give birth to a thousand babies a year. While the effective rate is lower, there isn't enough space in the galaxy to provide for them. It would've been great to have the opportunity to compromise between Wrex and the Dalatrass and have a modified cure, to have the rate at human levels.

That's why if it wasn't for the reaper war, I would never have cured it. Even with galactic infrastructure decimated after the war and the Krogan technologically incapable of spreading across the galaxy or starting a second Rebellion - eventually, that infrastructure will be rebuilt and they could do exactly that.

But it is a minimal concern post-war, I think, because there are plenty of ways to deal with that after the fact and a limited number of ways to potentially combat the Reapers - a sh*tload of angry Krogan being one of them.

[KaiserShep]

We know it can be done, since cloning facilities have been seen in ME1 and 2, but that's not likely an option the krogan would accept, for fairly obvious reasons.

[congokong]

 It would've been great to have the opportunity to compromise between Wrex and the Dalatrass and have a modified cure, to have the rate at human levels.   

Isn't that pretty much what it is with the genophage? One offspring per year? The games are never clear. Is it 1 in 1000 krogan females are fertile? Is it 1 in 1000 krogan survive birth which means at 1000 eggs a year there would be one offspring a year? Does the genophage cause abortions or just affect fertility rates?

[Kabooooom]

You make considerable points but my argument was on what we know: the threat the genophage poses. ME never even addresses just how useful a cured krogan could really be against the reapers. The emphasis was on getting the current krogan onto Palaven. Not on using their children as fodder. What you're saying is assumed. Are tank breeding facilities less feasible then traditional reproducing? We don't really know. My argument was on what we did know. It's the same argument I made when I defend holding the fleets back to focus on Sovereign. Posters will give lengthy explanations with strategies that are never mentioned in-game on how it's a "good idea" to divert resources to save the council. But I make such arguments on in-game facts.

But an argument of being reluctant to cure it because of what we know about the Krogan birth rate, solely to get Krogan support on Palaven is shortsighted, in my opinion. We don't know how effectively a cured Krogan population could rebound and help against the reapers - sure, but we DO know what the birth rate is and that can't be ignored, it must be considered and potential consequences or utility of it deduced. And we also know that it certainly couldn't hurt the war effort at all. Comparatively, one can deduce that sabotaging it just to get Krogan support to Palaven might indeed hurt the war effort, by eliminating a potential source of future troops. Anyone seriously thinking about strategy has to consider that.

But you raise good points, and the sabotage-or-cure decision was always one of the harder ones for me (without meta gaming) because every logical part of me wanted to sabotage it so damn bad. But I had to admit that their birth rate may be valuable in the long run. I consider it a sort of investment.

I also agree with you about holding the fleets back. I never save the council. Without metagaming, NOT focusing on Sovereign is single handedly the dumbest strategic choice that a Shepard can make throughout the entire trilogy. It makes literally no sense whatsoever to do that. So I let them die a thousand times over.

[Kabooooom]

By the way this discussion is awesome.

[Aimi]

All this talk about krogan overrunning the galaxy if the genophage is cured doesn't really make much sense to me. EDI brings up the rate of krogan reproduction on the Normandy during the genophage arc, sure, but in the context of the campaign for Palaven, she simultaneously mentions other reasons why the krogan are not a serious threat to anybody for the foreseeable future.

For one thing, she notes that the krogan do not possess significant shipping or space-naval warfare capacity. They've been demilitarized. They possess no known shipyards. Creating the infrastructure for those things takes time and resources. If they can't get off Tuchanka without help, they are not a threat to invade anyone, period.

She also highlights krogan difficulty with food supplies, a theme that receives attention elsewhere in the games (e.g. from Fortack and the Urdnot scout commander in ME2). Although, as EDI points out, "the state" does have "an interest in keeping [krogan children] alive for warfare purposes", the state's interest is irrelevant if it totally lacks the food to feed all these new mouths. Tuchanka is, by all accounts, a Malthusian nightmare before the Reaper War, a situation that is unlikely to change in the short term. That means that in order to feed this burgeoning population, krogan need to either purchase foodstuffs from other sellers or conquer them. The first possibility lies within the ability of those other races to control; the second possibility is fantastically unlikely due to the aforementioned lack of a krogan navy.

These twin difficulties mean that krogan warlords almost certainly could not mount a serious challenge to the other Citadel races within a short time of the end of the genophage. Historical evidence points this up as well. Several centuries passed between salarian uplift and the outbreak of the krogan rebellions (rachni declared extinct ~300 CE after decades if not centuries of krogan aid, beginning of Lusia campaign ~700 CE). It was not as though they were able to immediately "sweep across the galaxy in a sea of blood", as the Weyrloc Clanspeaker famously claimed. There is no reason they should be able to do it in 2190 if they could not do it eighteen centuries earlier.

With that kind of time scale involved, causation becomes iffy. There's too much stuff involved to draw a straight line and say "that's how things are gonna break". A multitude of other things could very easily happen that make the possibility of war with the krogan very, very low. Krogan values and society might change, especially under certain leadership. Krogan rearmament initiatives and hostile actions could be checked by covert or overt Citadel intervention at relatively low cost. There's simply too much noise to predict which way krogan society would go - and plenty of opportunity for non-krogan societies to insert themselves into the process and help influence the krogan in positive or negative ways.

[congokong]

But an argument of being reluctant to cure it because of what we know about the Krogan birth rate, solely to get Krogan support on Palaven is shortsighted, in my opinion. We don't know how effectively a cured Krogan population could rebound and help against the reapers - sure, but we DO know what the birth rate is and that can't be ignored, it must be considered and potential consequences or utility of it deduced. And we also know that it certainly couldn't hurt the war effort at all. Comparatively, one can deduce that sabotaging it just to get Krogan support to Palaven might indeed hurt the war effort, by eliminating a potential source of future troops. Anyone seriously thinking about strategy has to consider that.

But you raise good points, and the sabotage-or-cure decision was always one of the harder ones for me (without meta gaming) because every logical part of me wanted to sabotage it so damn bad. But I had to admit that their birth rate may be valuable in the long run. I consider it a sort of investment.

I also agree with you about holding the fleets back. I never save the council. Without metagaming, NOT focusing on Sovereign is single handedly the dumbest strategic choice that a Shepard can make throughout the entire trilogy. It makes literally no sense whatsoever to do that. So I let them die a thousand times over.

 

There's no argument that a fertile krogan could only be useful against the reapers. But now I'm hearing the dalatrass' words in my head.

 

"We simply traded one enemy for another."

 

If a fertile krogan cannot make a real difference in the war effort through their offspring due to time constraints curing the genophage is adding a future galactic threat in order to combat a current one by getting boots on palaven. Not to mention you're losing salarian support to do it. And with Wreav in charge (he was in my canon playthrough) the idea of a cured krogan terrifies me.

 

I will say that if sabotage was not an option I would cure the genophage for certain. It's the same situation as how the salarians had to uplift the krogan to stop the rachni because there was no other choice to survive. Yes, the krogan eventually replaced the rachni but it bought the galaxy time.

[Bob from Accounting]

I also agree with you about holding the fleets back. I never save the council. Without metagaming, NOT focusing on Sovereign is single handedly the dumbest strategic choice that a Shepard can make throughout the entire trilogy. It makes literally no sense whatsoever to do that. So I let them die a thousand times over.

 

You might want to check what 'metagaming' means. And also 'sense.' And 'strategy.' Because this is not it. Quite the opposite, really.

 

If you recall, Saren was actually just killed at the time the decision was made. So really, this 'sense' that you've made the rather silly decision to pat yourself on the back with and praise yourself for having is based on 'metagaming' that a threat is still present, despite Shepard having stopped whatever Saren was doing.

[I Tsunayoshi I]

You might want to check what 'metagaming' means. And also 'sense.' And 'strategy.' Because this is not it. Quite the opposite, really.

 

If you recall, Saren was actually just killed at the time the decision was made. So really, this 'sense' that you've made the rather silly decision to pack yourself on the back with and praise yourself for having is based on 'metagaming' that a threat is still present, despite Shepard having stopped whatever Saren was doing.

 

Funny that you mentioned that. He claimed not focusing on Sovereign is a bad thing. What about that Geth fleet that goes ignored just so that you could focus fire on Sovereign. I smell the potential for a pincer formation that would rout everyone worth a damn if they didnt get wiped out first.

[congokong]

@Kaboom

 

You see? We're already getting posters who start prattling about "factors" to consider when choosing whether to save the council that no one mentions in-game when you have to make that call. It never fails.

[TheOneTrueBioticGod]

The Krogan have no way of waging war after the Reapers are gone. They have no ships, and you can't deploy your monstrous ground troops halfway across the galaxy without a fleet. 

Eliminating the Genophage, instead of fixing it, is bad for the Krogan. They can't leave Tuchanka, and it's not like Tuchanka is some floral paradise. They managed to feed themselves through expansion and I'm guessing trade, but after the war, they won't be getting any of that. The Krogan will stave. 

Mordin and his team had the right idea with reducing the birth rate, and if most Krogan weren't already infertile beforehand it would've been the ideal solution. 

I still cure it, though, because with I can't betray Wrex and there is oppurtunity, especially with Wrex and Eve in charge, to fix the problem after the war. And the Salarians can keep a stealth dreadnought or two hidden in system just in case. 

[Kabooooom]

Oh look, David has crawled out from under his bridge to troll the discussion and contribute nothing of worth, as usual.

Why do you even still hang around the BSN when the majority of people here either despise you or consider you an annoying court-jester of sorts? I've always wondered that.

There's no argument that a fertile krogan could only be useful against the reapers. But now I'm hearing the dalatrass' words in my head.

"We simply traded one enemy for another."

If a fertile krogan cannot make a real difference in the war effort through their offspring due to time constraints curing the genophage is adding a future galactic threat in order to combat a current one by getting boots on palaven. Not to mention you're losing salarian support to do it. And with Wreav in charge (he was in my canon playthrough) the idea of a cured krogan terrifies me.

I will say that if sabotage was not an option I would cure the genophage for certain. It's the same situation as how the salarians had to uplift the krogan to stop the rachni because there was no other choice to survive. Yes, the krogan eventually replaced the rachni but it bought the galaxy time.

That's the only place where we differ, I think. You view the sabotage as a preferable decision, I view curing it as preferable temporarily...although I would fully be down with giving them a second genophage after the war.

[I Tsunayoshi I]

@Kaboom

 

You see? We're already getting posters who start prattling about "factors" to consider when choosing whether to save the council that no one mentions in-game when you have to make that call. It never fails.

 

I give no fucks really about that particular choice. Paragade doesnt kill them so that he can shove their faces down in the steaming turd they've been asking for throughout that entire campaign. Renegon kills em because she wont get a better chance to do so after they decided to question her competence every step of the way after making her a bloody Spectre.

 

Possibilities for what could go wrong with either choice dont factor in cause its 100% personal for both Sheps.

[Kabooooom]

@Kaboom

You see? We're already getting posters who start prattling about "factors" to consider when choosing whether to save the council that no one mentions in-game when you have to make that call. It never fails.

Pretty much. Interesting that someone brought up the possibility of a pincer formation. I'd argue that it doesn't matter. All you know, in game, is that Sovereign is literally moments away from opening the relay to dark space and starting the cycle of galactic extinction. You can either choose to focus all firepower on him, or choose not to (no matter the reason). Under those stakes, in a time-dependent situation with galactic extinction a possibility of failure, the best course of action is the renegade one. Let them die and try everything to take Sovereign out. It's also worth noting that at that point in the story you have no idea just how much abuse a reaper can take before it buckles.

[I Tsunayoshi I]

Pretty much. Interesting that someone brought up the possibility of a pincer formation. I'd argue that it doesn't matter. 

 

If actual tactical movements for fleets meant a damn to Bioware, I'd argue against ya on that. Then again, the most one can do here is just acknowledge the possibility and weigh the risks of ignoring them vs. going after the HVT thats about to flip the entire galaxy ass over ******.

[TheOneTrueBioticGod]

Saving the Ascension, if just to eliminate the Geth before you bring your guns to bare on Sovereign, an unknown entity, is a good move. 

That's just from the tactical perspective. There's also the fact the Sovereign needed Saren to do something, which Shepard stopped, and that the galaxy's most powerful ship, its 10,000 crew members, and three of the most powerful people in the galaxy needed saving, that makes meta-gaming not necessary. 

[congokong]

Oh look, David has crawled out from under his bridge to troll the discussion and contribute nothing of worth, as usual.

Why do you even still hang around the BSN when the majority of people here either despise you or consider you an annoying court-jester of sorts? I've always wondered that.

 

I never respond to him because of his reputation and I have witnessed that every post he makes is argumentative.

 

That's the only place where we differ, I think. You view the sabotage as a preferable decision, I view curing it as preferable temporarily...although I would fully be down with giving them a second genophage after the war.

 

Well, I only made this decision when Wreav was in charge. With Wrex I cured it against my better judgment; Wrex and Shepard being friends and all. But I'd really hope that the salarians would work on genophage 2.0 after the war.

[congokong]

Pretty much. Interesting that someone brought up the possibility of a pincer formation. I'd argue that it doesn't matter. All you know, in game, is that Sovereign is literally moments away from opening the relay to dark space and starting the cycle of galactic extinction. You can either choose to focus all firepower on him, or choose not to (no matter the reason). Under those stakes, in a time-dependent situation with galactic extinction a possibility of failure, the best course of action is the renegade one. Let them die and try everything to take Sovereign out. It's also worth noting that at that point in the story you have no idea just how much abuse a reaper can take before it buckles.

You're preaching to the choir here (again). But now that I've even mentioned it people are starting to argue about tactics. If I brought up that I thought ME3 had a good ending people would do the same thing. Oh... oops.

[Kabooooom]

Saving the Ascension, if just to eliminate the Geth before you bring your guns to bare on Sovereign, an unknown entity, is a good move.

That's just from the tactical perspective. There's also the fact the Sovereign needed Saren to do something, which Shepard stopped, and that the galaxy's most powerful ship, its 10,000 crew members, and three of the most powerful people in the galaxy needed saving, that makes meta-gaming not necessary.

He is an unknown entity, but the choice is time-dependent. If he opens the relay before you can save the Ascension, then it doesn't matter that you saved it. Since you don't know how long it will take to do that, that can't be the best strategic move, in my opinion.

Which relates to the second thing you brought up - you didn't stop him. He already succeeded, it was too late. You killed him after he handed the station over to Sovereign, and it was only his death that interrupted Sovereign's defenses...which again, were interrupted temporarily and for an unknown duration. If you couldn't save the Ascension before they were brought back up, it would be potentially pointless since (at that time) you don't know how much a Reaper could withstand.

[TheOneTrueBioticGod]

No, Sovereign's defense are only brought down during the battle. When Shep made the decision, his KBs were still up and there really was no time period. Shepard had retaken control of the station, Sovereign was forced to take control of Saren to get it back. 

[I Tsunayoshi I]

Well, I only made this decision when Wreav was in charge. With Wrex I cured it against my better judgment; Wrex and Shepard being friends and all. But I'd really hope that the salarians would work on genophage 2.0 after the war.

 

That's unlikely seeing as Linron started to become so unpopular that the STG were getting ready to act under their own accord and ignore the Dalatrass outright because of overall bad decision making on her part.

[I Tsunayoshi I]

No, Sovereign's defense are only brought down during the battle. When Shep made the decision, his KBs were still up and there really was no time period. Shepard had retaken control of the station, Sovereign was forced to take control of Saren to get it back. 

 

And after Sovereign Saren was blown away, Sovereign proper lost his KB's, and more than likely more than that, which made it vulnerable to the entire fleet putting its collective boot up some Reaper ass.

[TheOneTrueBioticGod]

And after Sovereign Saren was blown away, Sovereign proper lost his KB's, and more than likely more than that, which made it vulnerable to the entire fleet putting its collective boot up some Reaper ass.

And then, all it takes is the Normandy. 

[Kabooooom]

And after Sovereign Saren was blown away, Sovereign proper lost his KB's, and more than likely more than that, which made it vulnerable to the entire fleet putting its collective boot up some Reaper ass.

Yes, this is what I was talking about BioticGod, and Shep makes the decision after killing terminator Saren, not before.