359 réponses à ce sujet

[Kabooooom]

At least I am sure that's how the chain of events went, if not then my bad, I will have to watch the ending sequence again

EDIT: ah my bad, you have to choose to hold the fleet back until sovereign is exposed prior to the final Saren fight. And the choices are split three ways - stay back, save the ascension, or focus entirely on sovereign. Under those conditions it still makes the most sense to focus entirely on sovereign

[Aimi]

If actual tactical movements for fleets meant a damn to Bioware, I'd argue against ya on that. Then again, the most one can do here is just acknowledge the possibility and weigh the risks of ignoring them vs. going after the HVT thats about to flip the entire galaxy ass over ******.

Even most wargamers are atrociously bad at tactics; expecting RPG players and shooter players - or BioWare's writers - to have a sound grasp of them seems far-fetched to me.

[TheOneTrueBioticGod]

From a video, Ashley says "We have to hold back until Sovereign's exposed."
 

What... did she read the script too? 
 

https://www.youtube....h?v=Lzeqbws7FiE

P.S, how do you embed videos?

[Aimi]

P.S, how do you embed videos?

Post YouTube clips straight up, without tags. Forum software handles it.

[TheOneTrueBioticGod]

Post YouTube clips straight up, without tags. Forum software handles it.
 

Thanks

[I Tsunayoshi I]

And then, all it takes is the Normandy. 

 

Artistic license. Any ship there could have done it considering there was nothing to stop the shot, and without the needless acrobatics Joker put into firing that one shot.

 

At least I am sure that's how the chain of events went, if not then my bad, I will have to watch the ending sequence again

EDIT: ah my bad, you have to choose to hold the fleet back until sovereign is exposed prior to the final Saren fight. And the choices are split three ways - stay back, save the ascension, or focus entirely on sovereign. Under those conditions it still makes the most sense to focus entirely on sovereign

 

Stay back and Focus on Sovereign have the same result though, so they are effectively the same choice.

 

Even most wargamers are atrociously bad at tactics; expecting RPG players and shooter players - or BioWare's writers - to have a sound grasp of them seems far-fetched to me.

 

I wont claim to have a good grasp at it myself. Doesnt mean I ignore what I do notice as a bit dodgy.

[Kabooooom]

Stay back and Focus on Sovereign have the same result though, so they are effectively the same choice.

Yeah, but Shepard couldn't possibly know that at the time that the choice was made. So there are three (seemingly) different choices - come in and save council, stay back and wait, or come in but ignore council and focus on Sovereign.

[KaiserShep]

But I'd really hope that the salarians would work on genophage 2.0 after the war.

 

I can't imagine that they wouldn't do this. In their place, I would quickly start development of a new genophage, and possibly even a virus that would rid the galaxy of them outright, just in case.

[I Tsunayoshi I]

I can't imagine that they wouldn't do this. In their place, I would quickly start development of a new genophage, and possibly even a virus that would rid the galaxy of them outright, just in case.

 

Same here. Honestly I see them working on either on remaking the upgraded version, or making something that would be harder to notice by not having the same severe effect as the original. The latter has the benefit of still letting them **** as they please while not being another millennia long death sentence.

[Kabooooom]

I've always been curious, how many people here fundamentally disagree with the concept of the genophage? Ie- how many people think it is legitimately evil and should never have been used to end the Rebellions in the first place?

I've always thought it was probably the best story arc in the series, and illustrated some rather complex issues and the necessity for decisions that are morally ambiguous.

When I first played Mass Effect 1 and was introduced to the Krogan and the genophage, I remember disagreeing with the concept initially. But as I went through Mass Effect 2 and learned more about the background of the war, the consequences of the genophage and what would have happened if another choice was made - I began agreeing with it. By Mass Effect 3 I fully agreed with it, and still do. I would never cure it under any normal circumstances.

Good for the Krogan in my game that circumstances weren't normal when the Reapers invaded, so I cured it - reluctantly. I was very close to sabotaging it. It was probably the hardest decision for me the first time through.

[I Tsunayoshi I]

I've always been curious, how many people here fundamentally disagree with the concept of the genophage? Ie- how many people think it is legitimately evil and should never have been used to end the Rebellions in the first place?

 

While I dont agree with its usage more because of the long term effects that we are introduced to early in the series, I cant really say there were many other options available considering what the Krogan could do at that point

 

That said, I didnt believe upgrading the Genophage was something that should have been done. While seeing the need for it, it took nearly a millenium just for the effects to start weakening and it more than likely would have taken ages to for the effects to degrade to a point that would actually illicit any reason to worry (assuming that the Krogan would not change). Rolling out a cure to give them a second chance seeing as they have stable leadership in Wrex and Eve was more of a no brainer in that regard for my Paragade. If all else fails, I still get my alliance and some of the best goddamned shock troops an army could want until their usefulness ended. My Renegon will likely spare them more because of the Krogan reputation on the battlefield than giving them a second chance to become a legitimately respected member of the galactic community.

[goishen]

Unless he gets assassinated and a radical Chief with Wrex's level of Charisma becomes de facto leader of the Krogan Empire.

 

It's best to have measures in place in case the Krogan go bonkers again, Wrex or no Wrex.

 

 

This made me think about ME4, or whatever it's called.  

 

Krogan Civil War.

 

Wrex gets assassinated, Wreav survives somehow.  Wrex, before he's assassinated passes down some of his more civilized traits.  Wreav being Wreav, is still the massive ****** that you know him to be.   Two factions come to collide in a battle.

 

Hmmm.   Could be.

[Kabooooom]

I am of a similar opinion, except I do agree with its initial usage. I lament that it had to be done, because it does suck and it was almost entirely the Salarian's fault.

Ideally, the Krogan should never have been uplifted. They would have remained on their homeworld until they either caused their own extinction or worked through their own aggression and massive birth rate. In that way, their population and culture would have been stabilized on their own planet before joining the galactic community.

But by then, the entire galaxy may have been conquered by the Rachni. So the Salarians uplifted them before they were ready. I honestly blame the Salarians for the Krogan Rebellions more than I blame the Krogan - they were just acting in their nature. Then the Salarians used the genophage, effectively punishing the Krogan for a Salarian mistake. It was unfair, but there was no other choice.

My opinion on the matter is pretty much identical to Mordin's, actually - except I do agree with you in that I am skeptical that it was necessary to modify the genophage so soon.

[I Tsunayoshi I]

My opinion on the matter is pretty much identical to Mordin's, actually - except I do agree with you in that I am skeptical that it was necessary to modify the genophage so soon.

 

They were just starting to reach a point where they would have a mild increase in birth rate. Nothing that would improve their situation in 2, but still something that might give them a little hope that they werent just tools for the Council. if anything, STG moving to upgrade so quickly shows how much they probably regret that uplift. If not that, then it shows a much darker side to their own culture considering the only race ever aware of the Genophage starting to weaken was the Salarians.

[Deathsaurer]

Eh I don't think the problem was the use of the Genophage to stop the rebellion but its continued use without any consideration for the psychological damaged it caused and overall stagnation of the Krogan's societal development by the galaxies "elite".

[TheOneTrueBioticGod]

"They were just acting in their nature." is no excuse. If anything, it's a knock on them. The Krogan attacked the galaxy and dropped asteroids on planets. The Salarians made no mistake, they needed to use the Krogan to defeat the Rachni. If the Rachni aren't stopped, then nothing ends well. Everyone dies. 

People who say the genophage was wrong don't know what actually happened in the Rebellions. Attacks by the STG and Asari huntresses should've and did cripple Krogan infrastructure. But the Krogan, well, popped out more babies and kept on attacking. All this after invading other species' planets. 

[wolfhowwl]

I've always been curious, how many people here fundamentally disagree with the concept of the genophage? Ie- how many people think it is legitimately evil and should never have been used to end the Rebellions in the first place?

 

If they feel that way I would like to hear their alternatives then.

 

Keep in mind that the Krogan had demonstrated with the destruction of entire planets that there would be no atrocity they weren't willing to commit to win.

[Kabooooom]

Eh I don't think the problem was the use of the Genophage to stop the rebellion but its continued use without any consideration for the psychological damaged it caused and overall stagnation of the Krogan's societal development by the galaxies "elite".

But at that point, there's no choice to undo it. While the Krogan can't exactly build their own ships, they have access to ships and they can travel the galaxy at whim. Their population would eventually expand unchecked. Mordin assures you as much with his, from all indications, extremely thorough simulations on the matter.

The only other option would be to say "okay, we are curing the genophage, but we are going to isolate and quarantine you to your star systems until you work out your aggression and reproduction issues. Then you can come out to play again. And if you nuke yourselves to extinction we won't be there to save you this time".

And I'm honestly not sure which is more cruel - doing that, or the genophage.

[Kabooooom]

"They were just acting in their nature." is no excuse. If anything, it's a knock on them. The Krogan attacked the galaxy and dropped asteroids on planets. The Salarians made no mistake, they needed to use the Krogan to defeat the Rachni. If the Rachni aren't stopped, then nothing ends well. Everyone dies.

People who say the genophage was wrong don't know what actually happened in the Rebellions. Attacks by the STG and Asari huntresses should've and did cripple Krogan infrastructure. But the Krogan, well, popped out more babies and kept on attacking. All this after invading other species' planets.

All of which is in their nature. Biologically, they are an insanely aggressive and R-selected species. Bad combination. They never should have been allowed to leave their homeworld. Mordin said if he were there, he would have argued against uplifting - implying that there may have been other potential options available to winning the Rachni War. Uplifting the Krogan was a sure fire win and the easy way out. If it was the only option, then I would agree with it. If not, then I wouldn't.

Then, after the war, their population explodes, conflict begins, and people are surprised when their biological weapons of war start dropping asteroids on them? Round of applause for that epic Salarian foresight right there. But I'm sure they learned their lesson from their shortsightedness, I mean its not like they would ever try uplifting the Yahg, right?

Regardless, I agree - the genophage was absolutely the correct course of action at the time. And it still is, I think - even with Wrex/Eve in charge. Their influence can't last forever.

[Deathsaurer]

My problem with the they'll never change argument is it's the exact same argument the Catalyst uses to justify what it does. So I'm willing to give Wrex and Bakara the chance to make the Krogan better.

[shodiswe]

Well, in the MEU planets can't be defended anyway, stealth or no.

I think the Hannar would dissagree with you.

I just had a thought, maybe the Hannar orbital defences are using radiation from their very energetic star and focusing it as weapons.

Maybe that's how they destroyed the incomming Reaper fleet, the powerful Reaper shields couldn't defend against that type of non-kinetic weapon. Their star might have proven a superior defensive asset. Other species most likely used mass effect weapons and missiles for their orbital defences.

[Daemul]

I will take Javik's lead on this one, the Turians should have detonated the bomb the very day the Rebellions ended and destroyed the Krogan, there was no need for the Genophage. No matter what Padok Wiks says the galaxy is better off without species like the Krogan. 

[Kabooooom]

My problem with the they'll never change argument is it's the exact same argument the Catalyst uses to justify what it does. So I'm willing to give Wrex and Bakara the chance to make the Krogan better.

The thing is though, when it is within a species' biological nature, it is extremely difficult to "change" because it is who they are. I tend to believe Mordin on this- he said he accounted for everything, the galaxy ended in war every time.

I think they *could* change, just like I think us humans could change in real life and outgrow our self-destructive tendencies before we cause our own extinction. In the case of the Krogan though, this should have been done before they were uplifted and joined the galactic community.

[I Tsunayoshi I]

The thing is though, when it is within a species' biological nature, it is extremely difficult to "change" because it is who they are. I tend to believe Mordin on this- he said he accounted for everything, the galaxy ended in war every time.

I think they *could* change, just like I think us humans could change in real life and outgrow our self-destructive tendencies before we cause our own extinction. In the case of the Krogan though, this should have been done before they were uplifted and joined the galactic community.

 

This is probably a stretch, but is there a possibility that Mordin didnt account for the Krogan becoming a united people under one leader, or for a duo such as Wrex and Bakara being in charge?

 

I could see many of the other factors clearly leading to war, but its not hard to imagine the path Krogan ended up taking under Wrex being seen as a laughable idea just because of what everyone thought of the Krogan to start with.

[DeathScepter]

The thing is though, when it is within a species' biological nature, it is extremely difficult to "change" because it is who they are. I tend to believe Mordin on this- he said he accounted for everything, the galaxy ended in war every time.

I think they *could* change, just like I think us humans could change in real life and outgrow our self-destructive tendencies before we cause our own extinction. In the case of the Krogan though, this should have been done before they were uplifted and joined the galactic community.

 

 

the question,  Will our extinction would be good for the galaxy? Keep in Mind that the Aliens will work on an blue and orange morality compare to us.

 

 

Also why blame the actions of the Krogans of Old on the current generation of Krogan? They already payed for their crimes. Also What was the other choices should the Salarians have done with the Rachni? Also what should the Council done with the Krogans? They could have explore the galaxy with a huge army.