287 réponses à ce sujet

[Gwydden]

For a problem to be "real world" it has to be happening in the real world. A death in Thedas is not at all the same thing as a death in the real world, because one of those deaths is the real death of a real person, while the other is the pretend death of a pretend person.

 

Immersion has never been necessary for me to enjoy fantasy at all, nor does a lack of immersion prevent me from becoming invested.

 

I have never found a single character in Game of Thrones even slightly relatable, if I did I'd probably hate myself. The level of violence in the series borders on cartoonish.

Historical novels are usually set in the real world. Deaths there are usually still fictional. Even when they actually happened, the circumstances and personality of the dying character are based in the author's interpretation.

 

I find your last comment kind of funny, because though I like ASoIaF, it is mostly because of its hard to predict plot. The characters are not bad, but I don't find them relatable either.

[MisterJB]

It's far too easy for white people--and I AM white--to whine that this is a double-standard.  Our stories literally dominate the market.  Small wonder that some of us want to react to that claim that we're really just arguing for a double standard with "oh, cry me an effing river."

If you think white stories dominate the market, you're applying an extremely broad definition of "white".

 

Regardless, theft is not only a crime if commited against poor people. Likewise, being against an all-white cast for no reason other than their race should be as equally offensive as being against an all-asian cast for the same reason.

But you're arguing that it's not.

[Nyeredzi]

Be introduced to Native Australians.

Believe it or not, those guys are Caucasians, yep more closer to white people than asians or everybody else

 

they just look like black people again cause of their dark skin, (and are called as such because of their primitive African look-alike culture). They are not African

 

They are kind of like Indians

[Mockingword]

That's fine, but I'm not talking about the market as a whole, I'm talking about any given story on an individual basis.

Which is completely missing the point?

[Pirate Queen Isabela]

Isn't a lot of the terrible things in Game of Thrones based off of real life events, though? The Red Wedding in particular?

 

An author will always use real life issues to base their stories off of. I have yet to read any material that isn't based off of a event, or a group of people. Even the Alien races have their culture based on real life stereotypes. Orlesians have French accents, Qunari are partially based off of the Moors, Qurian head-wear is based off of what Virgin Mary in art wears.

 

You can argue it's not based off of real life issues but it is. "It's fictional!!!" doesn't excuse shoving minorities off the side. 

[Nyeredzi]

Are we seriously debating on what is black tho? Just checking.

white-wash ... what it does is unbelievable

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Which is completely missing the point?

 

Is it? This thread is about "ethnic diversity in Thedas". It's specifically about the Dragon Age setting.

[SerCambria358]

For a problem to be "real world" it has to be happening in the real world. A death in Thedas is not at all the same thing as a death in the real world, because one of those deaths is the real death of a real person, while the other is the pretend death of a pretend person.

 

Immersion has never been necessary for me to enjoy fantasy at all, nor does a lack of immersion prevent me from becoming invested.

 

I have never found a single character in Game of Thrones even slightly relatable, if I did I'd probably hate myself. The level of violence in the series borders on cartoonish.

Its not the individual its the concepts and the emotions of the occurrence. It doesnt need to be a real event in order to display the same ideals. Death in thedas most of the time means you will never see that person again, they cease to exist. Same concept happens in the real world which is why it is considered a real world issue. Stripping away the Fade and ghosts and all of that. At the core of it, its still death and people of thedas still wheep and mourn like we do.

 

Ok thats you're opinion, again dont speak for a "vast majority" if its only your personal feelings on the matter

 

^see above. Because YOU dont relate to a single character, that concludes that no one in the world relates to characters who have lost loved ones, experienced death in general, are paraplegic, young, etc. Whether or not violence on that show, pleases you is irrelevant. Bottom line is, you dont speak for the entire audience. 

[Nocte ad Mortem]

I "bloody" get it. It's rarer to encounter an all-asian story than an all-white one. Except if you're in Asia, go figure.

 

But asking for more all-asian stories is not quite the same as asking for less all-white which is what you are doing.

Let's say that there are ten stories. 5 feature all-white casts, the other 5 feature all-asian. Why is it that you don't think representation can be achieved in that manner rather than having to put asians in the white stories?

Many people in the western world today aren't particularly interested in choosing "white stories" and "Asian stories" over "diverse stories". I like to look at a cast and see a variety of types of people. I don't find myself less able to relate to a story where elves, dwarves and other mythical species are added to supposed "fantasy Europe" than to add a higher than maybe historically accurate amount of varied races, just like I support women warriors and same sex relationship acceptance. It seems like a silly differentiation, to me, and it improves my enjoyment to have the change made.      

[SerCambria358]

"Rivaini are blacks people" "Middle Easterns are Arab dominant, blacks are very rare"

No, middle easterns are people in the middle east, black people are in the middle east as well, it is not rare.

[In Exile]

Many people in the western world today aren't particularly interested in choosing "white stories" and "Asian stories" over "diverse stories". I like to look at a cast and see a variety of types of people. I don't find myself less able to relate to a story where elves, dwarves and other mythical species are added to supposed "fantasy Europe" than to add a higher than maybe historically accurate amount of varied races, just like I support women warriors and same sex relationship acceptance. It seems like a silly differentiation, to me, and it improves my enjoyment to have the change made.      

 

Fantasy as a genre has a lot of problems when it comes to disversity. Like when people trot out the "fantasy engages with racism" because it has (white) elves and dwarves trope (let's bracket all the unfortunate implications from the idea that racial diversity is a bunch of white people who have physically different proportions, and the labels of human vs. non-human). There's just so much bizarre and racist ideas in fantasy, that introduce diversity is pretty necessary for combating the sort of attitudes it engenders. Elves in DA are an amazing case study in this, where you have people actually advocate for racial segregation based on the idea that the race needs to be "pure" from human influence to preserve themselves. That's outright what complete nutter white supremacist groups argue IRL. 

[Gwydden]

They can exist if they look like black people from reality, not half baked fakes trying to white wash a race

C'mon, I really don't see your point. There are people in real life that look just like Duncan and Isabela, so they are very much real. Whether you want to consider them black or not has nothing to do with it.

 

Also, I notice you completely ignored my posts, so I will repeat myself: PLEASE, drop it.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Is it unfair to criticise stories for being derivative generally, or only when it applies to majority white casts?

 

I'm not following you here. I wasn't talking about any story being derivative.

[Silfren]

 OK That's fine, I agree, but I wasn't talking about the market as a whole, I'm talking about any given story on an individual basis.

 

Then I'm afraid I don't understand your point, since I never mentioned anything about a given story on an individual basis.  You've lost me.

[TKavatar]

white wash man... what it does is unbelievable

What if Isabela and Duncan are just black (as in skin colour, not race)? There are other ethnicities that have very dark skin, like some people from south India.

[Mockingword]

I don't understand this idea that a particular culture can only exist if people have the "right" skin tone.

There is so much about this debate that I have never understood and will never understand.

[Nyeredzi]

No, middle easterns are people in the middle east, black people are in the middle east as well, it is not rare.

ok, but the are ruled over by arabs

[LOLandStuff]

We saw like two rivaini people. Maybe they do have black people who look like africans or whatever...

But what about Vivienne?

[Gwydden]

 

Believe it or not, those guys are Caucasians, yep more closer to white people than asians or everybody else

 

they just look like black people again cause of their dark skin, (and are called as such because of their primitive African look-alike culture). They are not African

 

They are kind of like Indians

 

They have African-like features, for the love of Whatever. There's nothing Caucasian about them. At all. Zero. Their ancestors are not from Central Eurasia.

 

This almost seems like some weird African elitism.

[Shadow Fox]

 

 

Have fun guys.

[Silfren]

If you think white stories dominate the market, you're applying an extremely broad definition of "white".

 

Regardless, theft is not only a crime if commited against poor people. Likewise, being against an all-white cast for no reason other than their race should be as equally offensive as being against an all-asian cast for the same reason.

But you're arguing that it's not.

 

Yes, I AM arguing that it's not.  And you very clearly and officially do not and never will get it.  

[TKavatar]

We saw like two rivaini people. Maybe they do have black people who look like africans or whatever...
But what about Vivienne?

Vivienne definitely has more African features, compared to Isabela or Duncan.

[Mockingword]

Ok thats you're opinion, again dont speak for a "vast majority" if its only your personal feelings on the matter

 

^see above. Because YOU dont relate to a single character, that concludes that no one in the world relates to characters who have lost loved ones, experienced death in general, are paraplegic, young, etc. Whether or not violence on that show, pleases you is irrelevant. Bottom line is, you dont speak for the entire audience. 

When did I ever claim to speak for anyone other than myself?

 

You're the one that is saying that realism and immersion are "OMG SO NECESSARY" for fantasy, or else nobody will enjoy them.

 

You're the one saying that Game of Thrones is popular because "people totes relate to it". How do you know that they don't just want to see nudity and violence?

 

If anyone is claiming to speak for a vast majority, it is totally you.