287 réponses à ce sujet

[Han Shot First]

Serious question: where in the Lore has it been established, concretely that certain Thedosian cultures have certain skin tones, and that the racial diasporas/divisions operate the same way as in real life? Or even that race based on skin tone is culturally specific as it is in real life?

 

Could it not be that there are cultural analogues to European cultures, but they are not racially analogous? Why must asian-looking thedosians come from an asian themed make-believe culture?

 

I'm operating under the assumption that in Thedas, skin tone is inherited in the same way that is in our own world and that it serves the same function. If that is the case then you would expect ethnic groups to have similar physical features, including skin tone. You might also expect to see darker skin tones in regions where people are exposed to more UV light, assuming the people in question had been settled in those regions for millennia.

 

Of course since Thedas is entirely fictional the writers could instead decide that skin tone is entirely cosmetic and doesn't have a link to exposure to UV light, and that its inherited in the same way that hair color is inherited.

 

I prefer the former personally and see nothing wrong with a fictional universe mirroring our own, in that regard. As of DA2 Thedas *does* seem to mirror our own world as well. The Rivaini and Chasind for example, are largely dark-skinned. Additionally in Lothering, which was near the Korcari Wilds, there were more dark-skinned characters than Denerim.

[Gwydden]

Alexander Dumas, author of the Three musketeers was "Black." Othello which was written by Shakespeare features a Moore as it's protagonist.

Yes, because his grandmother was a black slave in Haiti. His French side had nothing to do with it.

I would expect ethnic groups to remain consistent.

Also, most moors were white.

[Neesa]

I'm for diversity, but it can be sticky in media when the inclusion of other races suddenly becomes a statement about race.  If a number of human enemies had dark skin then a conversation can begin about dark faces of menace, if merchants have a Korean accent suddenly a statement is being made about Korea.  Star Wars had this problem.  Under current conditions skin color is not just hue it can be read as layers of messages and thus thorny for developers.

Which begs the question would you have to worry about these "statements" if these representations didn't have to be encouraged in the first place?

[DRTJR]

Yes, because his grandmother was a black slave in Haiti. His French side had nothing to do with it.

I would expect ethnic groups to remain consistent.

Also, most moors were white.

The Moors were Morrocan Muslims who invaded the Iberian panisula, they were Black and were always such.

There is also Hannibal and the entirety of Carthage, who were Africans.

http://www.anheuser-...ly_Hannibal.jpg

[Statare]

I'm operating under the assumption that in Thedas, skin tone is inherited in the same way that is in our own world and that it serves the same function. If that is the case then you would expect ethnic groups to have similar physical features, including skin tone. You might also expect to see darker skin tones in regions where people are exposed to more UV light, assuming the people in question had been settled in those regions for millennia.

 

 

It still could. According to the Elves, though, humans came from somewhere else. If they did, they presumably came as a heterogenous group of different peoples to have brought all the different looking Thedosians we see. Unless Thedas has super genetics and people can mutate in large populations quickly.

 

If we take the Elven history of humans as truth, then it implies that all cultures on Thedas were founded by a heterogenous group of individuals, skin complexion is arbitrary, only cultural things, like Tevinterness/Fereldenness are salient and homogenous.

[Wulfram]

Also old Europe did not have a magical force field around it that did not allow people from Asia or Africa from entering.

 

 

This is of course true, but many if not most places would have been 95% white, to borrow the figure from the OP.  I don't think it's useful to leap to a strawman that Europe was totally lacking in diversity.

 

(The point that Thedas doesn't have to be bound to historical europe is of course valid)

[DaySeeker]

Which begs the question would you have to worry about these "statements" if these representations didn't have to be encouraged in the first place?

 

I see your point, and want to agree with it,but there are problems.  Do we "melting pot" it and say everyone is the same except for skin color thereby x-ing out cultural differences?  Will that make people feel more included?  Can we unsensationalize news coverage and reactions that immediately call for boycotts, protest or action?  

 

I think the best solution has been presented- important characters of color in the game.  Does it stand out oddly that the King of Ferelden is Latino and most of his subjects are white?  Does he then need to have an accent?  Would we just take it in stride and say, "That's what the king looks like."  Would some demand he needs to be more latin?  

[Gwydden]

It still could. According to the Elves, though, humans came from somewhere else. If they did, they presumably came as a heterogenous group of different peoples to have brought all the different looking Thedosians we see. Unless Thedas has super genetics and people can mutate in large populations quickly.

If we take the Elven history of humans as truth, then it implies that all cultures on Thedas were founded by a heterogenous group of individuals, skin complexion is arbitrary, only cultural things, like Tevinterness/Fereldenness are salient and homogenous.

That's not what we have been shown. At all. What the lore does say is that the different tribes settled in different areas.

[Gwydden]

The Moors were Morrocan Muslims who invaded the Iberian panisula, they were Black and were always such.

There is also Hannibal and the entirety of Carthage, who were Africans.

http://www.anheuser-...ly_Hannibal.jpg

I know who the moors were, and I've seen contemporary, in situ depictions of them as white or close enough.

[Wulfram]

 

I think the best solution has been presented- important characters of color in the game.  Does it stand out oddly that the King of Ferelden is Latino and most of his subjects are white?  Does he then need to have an accent?  Would we just take it in stride and say, "That's what the king looks like."  Would some demand he needs to be more latin?  

 

Well, historically that example would be very plausible - ruling families were very international thanks to marriage alliance and all that.

[tmp7704]

Val Royeaux is a port city and the capital of Orlais, it would make sense for it to be a hub for different groups of people across Thedas.

That's sensible. Additionally if they want to play the French themes up more, it's not that unusual to meet black people there.

[sunnydxmen]

i hope i can make a dark skin character without it changing.

[Han Shot First]

There is also Hannibal and the entirety of Carthage, who were Africans.

http://www.anheuser-...ly_Hannibal.jpg

 

African does not always mean black. Both today and in ancient times, Africa was settled by diverse peoples with varying skin tones. 

 

Carthage had originally been a Phoenician colony, and the Carthaginians would have been predominantly Phoenician in ancestry perhaps with some smaller native Libyan admixture. Neither the Phoenicians or the original Libyan inhabitants of the region were black. The Phoenicians were a Semitic people related to the Jews and Arabs. In fact the Phoenician language, which the Carthaginians also spoke, is very closely related to Hebrew. The Libyan tribesmen who were native to the region before the Phoenicians founded Carthage, were related to the Berbers. In short, the people of Carthage would mostly look like people we'd describe today as 'Middle-Eastern,' and not unlike many of the modern inhabitants of North Africa.

 

On to Hannibal...

 

While it is certainly possible that Hannibal could have been black, there is also no evidence that he was black. The posted artwork is an afrocentric take on him, but probably not a historically accurate one.

 

Given that we don't know much about Hannibal's appearance or ancestry other than that he would have been at least partially Phoenician (if not entirely), it is perhaps more reasonable to assume that he would have had a Middle-Eastern appearance. Also, there is a marble bust of Hannibal that was found among Roman ruins in Italy. It was not produced during his life time and thus might not be an accurate portrayal of how he looked, but it is reasonable to assume that it would be an accurate portrayal of how the people of Carthage usually would have looked.

 

[Altima Darkspells]

Now, now, didn't the internet agree that we'd go for gender diversity in video games first then ethnic diversity? You're doing it wrong.

The predominance of white people in the setting seems to make sense in that each nation seems to be an analogue of a RL medieval-ish country. Fereldan is England, Orlais France, Anderfells are Germany/Prussia, Tevinter is the Roman Empire.

Presumably as we get further away from one-country-one-setting or places jam-packed with refugees from said country, we'll get more...errr, racial? diversity.

Even though it seems somewhat pointless. Thedas' humans don't seem to discriminate based on skin color or anything. Not when they have those thieving city elves to hate. Or those murderous, cannibal, baby-eating dailish to worry about. Or those cave dwelling dwarves. Or their avaricious surface cousins who write stab-worthy smut. Or the qunari.

Diversity, racial or otherwise, is great when it makes sense. Diversity for the sake of diversity is just silly.

Besides, let's be honest, with BioWare's previous technology, once a skin tone got dark to a certain point, it looked really, really bad. We're talking cheap plastic territory.

[Neesa]

I see your point, and want to agree with it,but there are problems.  Do we "melting pot" it and say everyone is the same except for skin color thereby x-ing out cultural differences?  Will that make people feel more included?  Can we unsensationalize news coverage and reactions that immediately call for boycotts, protest or action?  

 

I think the best solution has been presented- important characters of color in the game.  Does it stand out oddly that the King of Ferelden is Latino and most of his subjects are white?  Does he then need to have an accent?  Would we just take it in stride and say, "That's what the king looks like."  Would some demand he needs to be more latin?  

Melting pot? Sure, why not. There can be signs of assimilation just as easily as there can be signs of cultural differences. One doesn't have to preclude the other. As to whether or not that will help people feel included, that depends heavily on how they're portrayed. In that sense, I agree with you on representation via important characters of color. I think people will be more moved by a well developed POC companion/story relevant NPC than by a swarm of "diverse" minor NPCs that parrot the same useless dialogue.

 

I'm not quite getting this concern about the news, boycotts, protests and such. Maybe I'm out of the loop but what game with POC representation caused such a bruha that you feel that would be concern worth noting. For the record a misinformed news segment does not count for much, IMO.
 

 

Besides, let's be honest, with BioWare's previous technology, once a skin tone got dark to a certain point, it looked really, really bad. We're talking cheap plastic territory.

 

Is that what people didn't like? I always thought it was more inconsistent pigmentation and that the dark brown seemed to have this purplish hue to it.
 

[Han Shot First]

It still could. According to the Elves, though, humans came from somewhere else. If they did, they presumably came as a heterogenous group of different peoples to have brought all the different looking Thedosians we see. Unless Thedas has super genetics and people can mutate in large populations quickly.

 

If we take the Elven history of humans as truth, then it implies that all cultures on Thedas were founded by a heterogenous group of individuals, skin complexion is arbitrary, only cultural things, like Tevinterness/Fereldenness are salient and homogenous.

 

Not necessarily.

 

If you look at our own history you sometimes see these large tribal confederations forming out of diverse groups. The Huns are one such example. While the Hunnic cavalry had origins in Central Asia, the Hunnic armies that threatened the Late Roman Empire also included large numbers of allied or subjugated Germanic tribesmen. In earlier eras there were also tribal confederations that might have included both Gauls (Celts) and Germans, for example. The Iroquois in early American history are another example of this, as they were actually a confederation of several different tribes.

 

So early tribal groups in Thedas like the Alamarri might not have been heterogenous. In fact the lore may even imply the opposite, by stating that the Alamarri were not a single tribe but a loose confederation of Alamarri 'peoples.'

[DaySeeker]

Melting pot? Sure, why not. There can be signs of assimilation just as easily as there can be signs of cultural differences. One doesn't have to preclude the other. As to whether or not that will help people feel included, that depends heavily on how they're portrayed. In that sense, I agree with you on representation via important characters of color. I think people will be more moved by a well developed POC companion/story relevant NPC than by a swarm of "diverse" minor NPCs that parrot the same useless dialogue.

 

I'm not quite getting this concern about the news, boycotts, protests and such. Maybe I'm out of the loop but what game with POC representation caused such a bruha that you feel that would be concern worth noting. For the record a misinformed news segment does not count for much, IMO.

 

As you've stated, racial diversity has not been a hallmark in many video games, I'm speaking mostly of other media, but taking a look at internet chatrooms to see outrage over racial coverage.  As I said, I'm all for diversity, I'm just pointing out it is not as simple as a pallet shift.

[Mockingword]

Exactly what sort of groundwork does BioWare have to lay down in order for diversity in Thedas to "make sense" Why does a completely fictional setting need justification for diversity? Why can't it just be diverse from the start? Why can't it have always been diverse?

 

Do we seriously need to know the entire immigration history of Thedas? Because that sounds ****** boring. I don't care how the black people got there, I just want to kill some demons.

[Han Shot First]

One reason I prefer Thedas mirroing our own world as far as skin tone is concerned, is that it means that if Bioware were to introduce a character that appears Asian for example, it would also mean opening up another region and culture in the world in the lore. And since I find the lore of the universe interesting, I'm in favor of anything that means we'll get more of it. 

 

On that note...I think it would be cool to have a companion character who came from a culture based on the Mongols or Huns in DA4. 

[Hydromatic]

Did i accidentally walk into Tumblr instead of the BW forums?

 

 

Jk jk, i do agree to some extent.

[Wulfram]

I think history is interesting and a world that reflects that history is interestinger

[Altima Darkspells]

On that note...I think it would be cool to have a companion character who came from a culture based on the Mongols or Huns in DA4. 

And thus, BioWare got the idea for a Darkspawn companion...

Exactly what sort of groundwork does BioWare have to lay down in order for diversity in Thedas to "make sense" Why does a completely fictional setting need justification for diversity? Why can't it just be diverse from the start? Why can't it have always been diverse?
 
Do we seriously need to know the entire immigration history of Thedas? Because that sounds ****** boring. I don't care how the black people got there, I just want to kill some demons.

Presumably, there are limits to what the audience will accept in any fictional setting, regardless of the element. This is presumably why the Warden did not end the Blight while straddling the USS Enterprise and singing the dwarven mountain song from LotR. That or copyright laws.

And, frankly, you're talking to the same audience who went into detail on whether Tali's sweat tasted sweet. People know.

[Silfren]

And thus, BioWare got the idea for a Darkspawn companion...




Presumably, there are limits to what the audience will accept in any fictional setting, regardless of the element. This is presumably why the Warden did not end the Blight while straddling the USS Enterprise and singing the dwarven mountain song from LotR. That or copyright laws.

And, frankly, you're talking to the same audience who went into detail on whether Tali's sweat tasted sweet. People know.

 

That whole argument assumes from the outset that no mainstream audience will accept a diverse cast, and there is no proof of this from what I've seen.  When those who create and market media refuse to create diversity on those grounds, it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy, but the fact remains that there ARE stories which present their audiences with diverse casts, which are well received.  These stories are in the minority NOT because of lack of popularity but because of lack of marketing on the same scale as the other.  

 

That said, you also seem to be implying that an audience will not accept a diverse cast because it is too unrealistic even for a fictional setting, and that is absurd in the extreme, ESPECIALLY since it is patently and blatantly untrue that a racially and ethnically diverse cast is somehow unrealistic.  It's nothing more than a very weak excuse to just not bother trying.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Thedas is a setting that is grounded in certain facets of the real world. And one of them is that ethnicities are native to certain parts of the world and not others. And yeah, personally I think the history of migration of ancient human tribes is interesting. It's part of the reason why I'm interested in seeing the parts of Thedas further north, where different tribes and ergo different looking humans are from.