287 réponses à ce sujet

[Gwydden]

Exactly what sort of groundwork does BioWare have to lay down in order for diversity in Thedas to "make sense" Why does a completely fictional setting need justification for diversity? Why can't it just be diverse from the start? Why can't it have always been diverse?

 

Do we seriously need to know the entire immigration history of Thedas? Because that sounds ****** boring. I don't care how the black people got there, I just want to kill some demons.

Because this is not Alice in Wonderland? Why does a completely fictional setting need gravity, or 24 hours long days, or basic physics, or simple common sense? It doesn't, and you could make a story without those things just fine, if that's what you wanted.  But not for the sake of it. Similarly, the DA team seemed to want a world that at least partially mirrored ours in matters of race. They could have gone with the opposite, but they didn't chose to, they likely didn't want to, and they have no obligation of any kind to do so.

 

As a writer, I can vouch that I write my story the way I want, not the way my audience wants, and I care more about the setting than I do about issues of diversity and representation, even if they have their place. As part of the audience, I can say that what you find boring I can very much find interesting. I play DA to enjoy the story, the characters, and yes, the setting, not to see people like myself in the screen that were shoehorned because of some arbitrary sense of political correctness.

 

Thedas is what it is. If it is made into something else, then that is a retcon. Maybe that's not necessarily a bad thing, but that's most definitely a thing I'd want to avoid. But my point is diversity and/or representation are not the point of most if any stories. In most cases, how the black people got there is way more relevant, whether you like it or not.

[Exaltation]

Green too,aliens also love DA you know.

[Altima Darkspells]

That whole argument assumes from the outset that no mainstream audience will accept a diverse cast, and there is no proof of this from what I've seen.  When those who create and market media refuse to create diversity on those grounds, it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy, but the fact remains that there ARE stories which present their audiences with diverse casts, which are well received.  These stories are in the minority NOT because of lack of popularity but because of lack of marketing on the same scale as the other.  
 
That said, you also seem to be implying that an audience will not accept a diverse cast because it is too unrealistic even for a fictional setting, and that is absurd in the extreme, ESPECIALLY since it is patently and blatantly untrue that a racially and ethnically diverse cast is somehow unrealistic.  It's nothing more than a very weak excuse to just not bother trying.

Is there proof that the mainstream audience will accept a diverse cast? Whether it will or not, EA and every other AAA developer seems to think that the only way a video game will sell is if the main character is a 20-40 year old white male with short hair to a buzzcut with biceps the size of sledgehammers. In a day in age where female gamers make up 50% of the market (and who are/were the largest minority in gaming).

I'm fine with diversity, but not at the expense of sensibility. For example, black characters in the setting are fine. Great even. They make sense, as evidence by Vivienne. If DAI's technology can make those characters look good without having to make a custom skin for them, more power too them.

What about Asian characters? Native American? Well, we've seen characters from nearly every nation in Thedas, and none of them really fit that mold. So unless BW wants to do anther massive retcon like Qunari from DA2, I imagine it will jostle some long term fans.

And it's not a racial thing. It's a what-makes-sense-in-the-story thing. I imagine many people would be equally flabbergasted if the Orlesian Empress suddenly acquired a Southern drawl.

Y'all come back now, y'hear?

[Silfren]

Because this is not Alice in Wonderland? Why does a completely fictional setting need gravity, or 24 hours long days, or basic physics, or simple common sense? It doesn't, and you could make a story without those things just fine, if that's what you wanted.  But not for the sake of it. Similarly, the DA team seemed to want a world that at least partially mirrored ours in matters of race. They could have gone with the opposite, but they didn't chose to, they likely didn't want to, and they have no obligation of any kind to do so.

 

As a writer, I can vouch that I write my story the way I want, not the way my audience wants, and I care more about the setting than I do about issues of diversity and representation, even if they have their place. As part of the audience, I can say that what you find boring I can very much find interesting. I play DA to enjoy the story, the characters, and yes, the setting, not to see people like myself in the screen that were shoehorned because of some arbitrary sense of political correctness.

 

Thedas is what it is. If it is made into something else, then that is a retcon. Maybe that's not necessarily a bad thing, but that's most definitely a thing I'd want to avoid. But my point is diversity and/or representation are not the point of most if any stories. In most cases, how the black people got there is way more relevant, whether you like it or not.

 

Do you have any idea how tiresome it is that people dismiss the preference for a diverse cast as just wanting to be politically correct about an issue?  It's NOT about diversity for diversity's sake alone, and certainly it is not so trivial as just wanting to "see people like [yourself] on the screen."  

 

There is a long, long history of pretending that people of color didn't exist outside of very certain, limited contexts, a mythology that is perpetuated and reinforced in modern entertainment media, from t.v. series to games, and it even extends to the way that history itself is represented.  The idea that Thedas should not be diverse because it totally represents a specific period in real-world history in a place where poc were rare in the extreme, THAT Is the myth, and it is why people like myself are totally disgusted by the "OMG IT WOULDN'T BE REALISTIC" argument--because the idea that diversity didn't exist in the period and place that people insist Thedas is based on, is a complete and total fabrication.  

[Mockingword]

Presumably, there are limits to what the audience will accept in any fictional setting, regardless of the element. This is presumably why the Warden did not end the Blight while straddling the USS Enterprise and singing the dwarven mountain song from LotR. That or copyright laws.

And, frankly, you're talking to the same audience who went into detail on whether Tali's sweat tasted sweet. People know.

If the limit of someone's "acceptance" is the existence of non-white humans, that person is just a racist.

 

Even if Thedas was in any way equivalent to Medieval Europe (and it's not), you only have to spend five seconds looking at a map of the world to see that Africans and Asians could feasibly migrate to Europe by foot. In fact, that's exactly what did happen.

 

Or did you think they were kept out by the invisible walls of Camelot?

[KainD]

It's up to devs to do whatever they want, they don't owe anybody anything.
If they only want white people in thedas then so be it. If they want only black or something in between, then so be it as well.

[Mistic]

I'm still hoping to find a glorious Jade Empire somewhere over that next hill.

 

So, Jade Empire and Dragon Age are part of the same world? Then, would that mean that Sir Roderick Ponce Von Fontlebottom "the Magnificent Bastard" is a Thedosian?

[Silfren]

It's up to devs to do whatever they want, they don't owe anybody anything.
If they only want white people in thedas then so be it. If they want only black or something in between, then so be it as well.

 

And nobody has said that they owe anyone anything. But we damned well have a right to criticize them if they continue in the grand old tradition of pretending that only white people matter.

[Gwydden]

Do you have any idea how tiresome it is that people dismiss the preference for diverse cast as just wanting to be politiclally correct about an issue?  It's NOT about diversity for diversity's sake alone, and certainly it is not so trivial as just wanting to "see people like [yourself] on the screen."  

 

There is a long, long history of pretending that people of color didn't exist outside of very certain, limited contexts, a mythology that is perpetuated and reinforced in modern entertainment media, from t.v. series to games, and it even extends to the way that history itself is represented.  The idea that Thedas should not be diverse because it totally represents a specific period in real-world history in a place where poc were rare in the extreme, THAT Is the myth, and it is why people like myself are totally disgusted by the "OMG IT WOULDN'T BE REALISTIC" argument--because the idea that diversity didn't exist in the period and place that people insist Thedas is based on, is a complete and total fabrication.  

I never said anything of the sort. My argument is not against a diverse cast. I'm all for it. It is not that Thedas shouldn't have one because it is based on this or that historical period, which I agree is silly. What I'm against is the use of retcons to get that diverse cast and dismissing storytelling and the author's choice as irrelevant in the face of a lack of representation.

[AresKeith]

Did i accidentally walk into Tumblr instead of the BW forums?


Jk jk, i do agree to some extent.

That's pretty accurate lol

[KainD]

So, Jade Empire and Dragon Age are part of the same world? Then, would that mean that Sir Roderick Ponce Von Fontlebottom "the Magnificent Bastard" is a Thedosian?

Got a gun from Qunari?

[Silfren]

So, Jade Empire and Dragon Age are part of the same world? Then, would that mean that Sir Roderick Ponce Von Fontlebottom "the Magnificent Bastard" is a Thedosian?

 

That's just fan speculation/wishful hoping, I think.

[KainD]

And nobody has said that they owe anyone anything. But we damned well have a right to criticize them if they continue in the grand old tradition of pretending that only white people matter.

No, you don't have the right to criticize them. You have the right to kindly ask them to include any of your preferences in the game.

[Han Shot First]

 

Do we seriously need to know the entire immigration history of Thedas? Because that sounds ****** boring. I don't care how the black people got there, I just want to kill some demons.

 

I think it would be interesting, just I found most of the codex entries on the history of Thedas interesting.

 

Don't want to read a codex entry on the ancient history of Thedas? You're in luck. Its entirely optional.

[AresKeith]

And nobody has said that they owe anyone anything. But we damned well have a right to criticize them if they continue in the grand old tradition of pretending that only white people matter.

Which isn't even the case in DA

[daveliam]

It's up to devs to do whatever they want, they don't owe anybody anything.
If they only want white people in thedas then so be it. If they want only black or something in between, then so be it as well.

 

And it's up the consumers to give feedback on that product, which is exactly how the OP situated his/her request.

[Silfren]

No, you don't have the right to criticize them. You have the right to kindly ask them to include any of your preferences in the game.

 

LOL.  We don't have the right to criticize them?  ROFLOLOLOLOLOL yes, we do.  

[KainD]

And it's up the consumers to give feedback on that product, which is exactly how the OP situated his/her request.

Agree, my response was to the more aggressive demands, not the OP.

[Nyeredzi]

why don't they get rid of dark-skin tone. To me its just there to give a false sense of diversity.

 

For starters, black people, real ones, don't have flowing long hair like Isabella, or Duncan. 

Only reason to me of how Isabella, and Duncan could be black is that were wearing weaves, and eye contacts.

 

A descendant of a black person can never have flowing hair, they just have light skin, or they become a full white person

[Nightdragon8]

you know, I am honestly getting sick and tired of the whole 'color' issue here... mainly because I'm tired of people dividing themselves over what color there skin is. also this topic has been brought up MANY times before and have always ended up getting out of hand, and then closed.

 

Yes it was an issue with the engine. Also if anything the number of any color people can be different souly based on the fact that, there are no cars or jets or what have you in this era. Alot of people don't leave 'home' and what i mean is more than 5 miles. Now that has changed because of cars/jets/trains but it still applies.

 

Its their game, if they want to make a world with only white people in it, THEY HAVE EVERY RIGHT TO!. Just like every other company has a right to only add 1 race to an area if they want to. Its their world. Not yours. If they want it diverse they wll make it diverse. And trying to slight of hand make it seem like the company is raceist is IMO unethical and should be frowned on. Why isn't anyone coming down on a japanese company or a koren company for making some games where you HAVE to be asain?

 

So stop just stop please.

[KainD]

LOL. We don't have the right to criticize them? ROFLOLOLOLOLOL yes, we do.

If you don't like coca cola, do you write to the company that their product is crap? Or do you just not buy said coca cola?

[Gwydden]

why don't they get rid of dark-skin tone. To me its just there to give a false sense of diversity.

 

For starters, black people, real ones, don't have flowing long hair like Isabella, or Duncan. 

Only reason to me of how Isabella, and Duncan could be black is that were wearing weaves, and eye contacts.

 

A descendant of a black person can never have flowing hair, they just have light skin, or they become a full white person

 

(I am black, straight from Africa (Zimbabwe).

Lots of Indians and Middle Eastern people have dark skin and straight hair.

[daveliam]

why don't they get rid of dark-skin tone. To me its just there to give a false sense of diversity.

 

For starters, black people, real ones, don't have flowing long hair like Isabella, or Duncan. 

Only reason to me of how Isabella, and Duncan could be black is that were wearing weaves, and eye contacts.

 

A descendant of a black person can never have flowing hair, they just have light skin, or they become a full white person

 

(I am black, straight from Africa (Zimbabwe).

 

Why do you assume that all dark-skinned people are black?