If you don't like coca cola, do you write to the company that their product is crap? Or do you just not buy said coca cola?
If that was even remotely comparable to the consumption of entertainment media, it might be relevant. It ain't, and it's not. Do try again.
And nobody has said that they owe anyone anything. But we damned well have a right to criticize them if they continue in the grand old tradition of pretending that only white people matter.
Almost forgot. I'd like to add that when I said 'political correctness' I was talking about the attitude of including minorities without even trying to have it make sense, or doing it in a rather lame and/or offensive manner. That doesn't strike me as an aim to be inclusive, but as trying to cross an item off your list.
Lots of Indians and Middle Eastern people have dark skin and straight hair.
They ain't black, they are Indians and Middle eastern folk, infact they are the closest to Caucasian
you know, I am honestly getting sick and tired of the whole 'color' issue here... mainly because I'm tired of people dividing themselves over what color there skin is. also this topic has been brought up MANY times before and have always ended up getting out of hand, and then closed.
Yes it was an issue with the engine. Also if anything the number of any color people can be different souly based on the fact that, there are no cars or jets or what have you in this era. Alot of people don't leave 'home' and what i mean is more than 5 miles. Now that has changed because of cars/jets/trains but it still applies.
Its their game, if they want to make a world with only white people in it, THEY HAVE EVERY RIGHT TO!. Just like every other company has a right to only add 1 race to an area if they want to. Its their world. Not yours. If they want it diverse they wll make it diverse. And trying to slight of hand make it seem like the company is raceist is IMO unethical and should be frowned on. Why isn't anyone coming down on a japanese company or a koren company for making some games where you HAVE to be asain?
So stop just stop please.
And, once again, as consumers, we have "EVERY RIGHT TO" provide critical feedback on that product. If you don't like it, then don't participate in the thread, but you have no authority to tell other people to stop.
Sadly it has been more or less dev confirmed that they are not, but that doesn't mean we can't have a glorious eastern-styled empire somewhere in the world of Thedas... say, far to the west.
...or on the other side of the Qunari Empire.
Maybe the Qunari are kind of like the Parthians/Persians, who were sandwiched between the Roman Empire and the Chinese.
They ain't black, they are Indians and Middle eastern folk, infact they are the closest to Caucasian
Where was it stated that Duncan and Isabela were black?
Where was it stated that Duncan and Isabela were black?
It wasn't. They simply had darker skin. The only time I have ever heard someone being referenced as "black" was when Mary Kirby came in and said outright that, yes, "Vivienne is black".
He'll be qunari, since qunari have gunpowder, and Mirabelle.So, Jade Empire and Dragon Age are part of the same world? Then, would that mean that Sir Roderick Ponce Von Fontlebottom "the Magnificent Bastard" is a Thedosian?
It's up to devs to do whatever they want, they don't owe anybody anything.
If they only want white people in thedas then so be it. If they want only black or something in between, then so be it as well.
What if the limit of someone's acceptance is radically altered changes to the lore and setting to appease to a vocal, if you'll pardon the expression, minority?If the limit of someone's "acceptance" is the existence of non-white humans, that person is just a racist.
Even if Thedas was in any way equivalent to Medieval Europe (and it's not), you only have to spend five seconds looking at a map of the world to see that Africans and Asians could feasibly migrate to Europe by foot. In fact, that's exactly what did happen.
Or did you think they were kept out by the invisible walls of Camelot?
why don't they get rid of dark-skin tone. To me its just there to give a false sense of diversity.
For starters, black people, real ones, don't have flowing long hair like Isabella, or Duncan.
Only reason to me of how Isabella, and Duncan could be black is that were wearing weaves, and eye contacts.
A descendant of a black person can never have flowing hair, they just have light skin, or they become a full white person
(I am black, straight from Africa (Zimbabwe).
This is simply untrue. Race is a socio-cultural construct, and there ARE Black persons with straight, flowing hair. Speaking from a U.S. perspective, plenty of people who are technically biracial DO identify as Black, and it is not your place, or anyone else's, to argue about how accurate they are or to claim that they are not "real Black people."
It wasn't. They simply had darker skin. The only time I have ever heard someone being referenced as "black" was when Mary Kirby came in and said outright that, yes, "Vivienne is black".
It actually has been said that Isabela is black, I think. Gaider has talked about it several times.
I think the idea being that Duncan and Isabella are Rivaini and Rivaini people are (various tones of) black.
It actually has been said that Isabela is black, I think. Gaider has talked about it several times.
Ah, maybe he has. Never mind.
I think the idea being that Duncan and Isabella are Rivaini and Rivaini people are (various tones of) black.
That totally would be fine. And for all we know, Viv could be ethnically Rivaini.
Because this is not Alice in Wonderland? Why does a completely fictional setting need gravity, or 24 hours long days, or basic physics, or simple common sense? It doesn't, and you could make a story without those things just fine, if that's what you wanted. But not for the sake of it.
"For the sake of it" is pretty much the only reason that fantasy fiction exists at all.
But not for the sake of it. Similarly, the DA team seemed to want a world that at least partially mirrored ours in matters of race. They could have gone with the opposite, but they didn't chose to, they likely didn't want to, and they have no obligation of any kind to do so.
Lol. Exactly what matters of race do you think are being "partially reflected"?
If someone created a "mirror" of our world that showed only white people, I would think that person was either racist or stunningly ignorant.
"They have no obligation" is such a weak-ass excuse. Like, if that's the best you can come up with, you should really just give up.
As a writer, I can vouch that I write my story the way I want, not the way my audience wants, and I care more about the setting than I do about issues of diversity and representation, even if they have their place. As part of the audience, I can say that what you find boring I can very much find interesting. I play DA to enjoy the story, the characters, and yes, the setting, not to see people like myself in the screen that were shoehorned because of some arbitrary sense of political correctness.
Thedas is what it is. If it is made into something else, then that is a retcon. Maybe that's not necessarily a bad thing, but that's most definitely a thing I'd want to avoid. But my point is diversity and/or representation are not the point of most if any stories. In most cases, how the black people got there is way more relevant, whether you like it or not.
As a writer myself, I'm not even vaguely interested in reading or creating settings that are not diverse. And I don't do it out of any sense of "political correctness". I do it because we have enough lily-white carbon copies of Middle Earth already, and because other cultures have a mostly untapped wealth of awesome myths and folklore from which I can draw inspiration.
Simply put, it makes my work stand out, and it makes me a better writer. The fact that it is also the right thing to do is just a bonus.
Do you realise that you just said you would avoid a retcon, even if it made your work better?
Diversity and representation are not the point of any of my stories, but does it follow then that all the important characters must be white by default? If race doesn't matter to the story, then what does it matter if the protagonist happens to be something other than white?
why don't they get rid of dark-skin tone. To me its just there to give a false sense of diversity.
For starters, black people, real ones, don't have flowing long hair like Isabella, or Duncan.
Only reason to me of how Isabella, and Duncan could be black is that were wearing weaves, and eye contacts.
A descendant of a black person can never have flowing hair, they just have light skin, or they become a full white person
According to the lore the Rivaini can have skin tones that range from tan to ebony.
The Rivaini then might be a people who are the result of two or more unrelated ethnic groups who merged. They wouldn't be unlike some modern Central Americans for example, who can look European, African, Native-American, or some combination of any or all of the three.
Almost forgot. I'd like to add that when I said 'political correctness' I was talking about the attitude of including minorities without even trying to have it make sense, or doing it in a rather lame and/or offensive manner. That doesn't strike me as an aim to be inclusive, but as trying to cross an item off your list.
The thing is that the "it has to make sense" argument can be and IS used specifically to exclude diversity. It falls directly under the category of "IT WOULDN'T BE HISTORICALLY ACCURATE OMG." Otherwise, I would agree with you, but I just can't get behind a line of reasoning that is specifically trotted out to defend the lack of diversity.
No, you don't have the right to criticize them. You have the right to kindly ask them to include any of your preferences in the game.
Literally five posts ago, you were telling everyone else to respect BioWare's "freedom of speech". 
Why do you assume that all dark-skinned people are black?
Gaider said the Rivaini were pretty much the black people of thedas, unless proven otherwise. (He said they ranged from "tanned", to real dark skins)
If you think Indians, middle easterns, and black people are the same just because they have dark-skin, you have problems.
"Tanned"?
There's no such thing as a naturally tanned people, people get artificially tanned. Go to south Africa. White people there are the same as in Norway. Only those what tan themselves actually get artificially darker, and that's not even healthy for them. Then if they just get exposed to the sun too long they become sun burned.
Dark skin
So the dark skinned folk of Rivaini are just the Middle Easterns, Indians, blacks, and other random dark-skins (Mayans/Mexicans/Natives) who are not even related to each other just lumped together to form Darksville. Well you're right, its their game, and they can do whatever is easier for them.
That totally would be fine. And for all we know, Viv could be ethnically Rivaini.
That's exactly the case, I believe. Ethnically Rivaini, nationally Orlesian. And 9 shades of fabulous!
Where was it stated that Duncan and Isabela were black?
Gaider said it in the old bioware social network,
Gaider said the Rivaini were pretty much the black people of thedas, unless proven otherwise.
If you think Indians, middle easterns, and black people are the same, just because they have dark-skin, you have problems.
There's no such thing as a naturally tanned person, unless they are artificially tanned. Go to south Africa, white folks there are the same as in Norway. Only those what tan themselves actually get artificially darker, and its not healthy for them. If they just stay in the sun too long they become red, sun burned.
So the dark skinned folk of Rivaini are just middle eastern, Indians, black people, and other random dark-skins (Mayans/Mexicans) who are not even related to each other just lumped together to form Darksville. Well you're right, its their game. They can do what ever is easier to them.
Can you show me where it's been said that the Rivaini are the "black people" of Thedas? I've never seen that. I've seen a BUNCH of people post on the forum about how the Rivaini are black, but all I've seen officially is a group of dark-skinned people of Rivaini descent in the game. So, I'm not following your logic that dark-skinned = black given that there are many, many ethnic groups that have dark skin and are not black.
Isabela and Duncan look more Middle Eastern than black, to me. And Vivienne, who is black, hasn't been confirmed as Rivaini.
If the limit of someone's "acceptance" is the existence of non-white humans, that person is just a racist.
What is it with you and throwing down the race card?
Isabela and Duncan look more Middle Eastern than black, to me.
Agreed, Duncan reminded me of someone from the upper Mediterranean like Turkey, same thing with Isabela.
"For the sake of it" is pretty much the only reason that fantasy fiction exists at all.
Then every work of art in general exists for the sake of it. Obviously we're operating under different interpretations. Let me clarify mine. When I said 'for the sake of it' I actually meant 'the author not having any real interest in it'.
Lol. Exactly what matters of race do you think are being "partially reflected"?
If someone created a "mirror" of our world that showed only white people, I would think that person was either racist or stunningly ignorant.
"They have no obligation" is such a weak-ass excuse. Like, if that's the best you can come up with, you should really just give up.
What is being 'partially reflected' is the simple fact that people from the same ethnic group almost always look similar. As for the latter statement, it's not an excuse, is a fact.
As a writer myself, I'm not even vaguely interested in reading or creating settings that are not diverse. And I don't do it out of any sense of "political correctness". I do it because we have enough lily-white carbon copies of Middle Earth already, and because other cultures have a mostly untapped wealth of awesome myths and folklore from which I can draw inspiration.
Simply put, it makes my work stand out, and it makes me a better writer. The fact that it is also the right thing to do is just a bonus.
Diversity and representation are not the point of any of my stories, but does it follow then that all the important characters must be white by default? If race doesn't matter to the story, then what does it matter if the protagonist happens to be something other than white?
I agree. It still doesn't make it my business to tell other writers what to do with their own stories.
Do you realise that you just said you would avoid a retcon, even if it made your work better?
I would try to. Even when the end result is an improvement, retcon doesn't speak well of the writer or his/her story.
The thing is that the "it has to make sense" argument can be and IS used specifically to exclude diversity. It falls directly under the category of "IT WOULDN'T BE HISTORICALLY ACCURATE OMG." Otherwise, I would agree with you, but I just can't get behind a line of reasoning that is specifically trotted out to defend the lack of diversity.
I don't see how historical accuracy is in any way relevant in a story set in a fantasy world. It's internal consistency that is being discussed here, or so I thought.
If that was even remotely comparable to the consumption of entertainment media, it might be relevant. It ain't, and it's not. Do try again.
I think it would be a great thing to represent people of different skin tones, but it's strange to me how people argue about what "real world" race they are. People in Thedas have their own racial makeups. I think it's good to be representative of different appearances, but making it absolutely, 100% clear whether they're supposed to be African, or Mexican, or Native American is pretty extreme. They're not any of those things. Just having people with varied appearances should be enough, imo.
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