287 réponses à ce sujet

[Han Shot First]

Black people don't look like that. Like Isabella and Duncan. Calling them black is the same as lying to me. Hating their appearance

 

If you don't want real black people in your world, why don't you get rid of the idea instead of transforming them into something that's wrong and unreal. Leave their appearance alone. No black person possesses long flowing, hair with brown color. That's one thing that the player character does in their character selection screen.

 

According to the lore the skin tones of Rivaini can range in appearance from tan to ebony. Duncan and Isabela just happen to fall on the tan spectrum. 

 

Because some Rivaini are also described as ebony some fans assume that Vivienne and Scribbles are Rivaini. Whether or not that is the case, presumably those dark-skinned Rivaini would not look radically different. Would you say that Vivienne or Scribbles are not black?

[Phooka12]

I think people need to get over this whole ''need for diversity thing'' The developers do not have to put east asians, native americans, Blacks in Dragon age if they don't want to. If the devs wanted all of thedas to be dark skinned then that would be their choice too. Not every series has to have a black or white person just to be politically correct.

[Gwydden]

No, authors are not obligated to write non-white characters, and nobody is saying that they are. We are simply asking why they apparently don't want to. "SO WHAT? I DON'T HAVE TO" is not a satisfactory answer.

Maybe you should ask them? They may have perfectly legitimate reasons. Some of them, anyway. My guess would be we default to what is familiar and more like ourselves, but I could be completely wrong.

[Altima Darkspells]

Then that person needs to get over themselves. Anyone with even a passing familiarity with the genre of Fantasy knows that new information can come at any time. As it is, the people of Thedas are woefully ignorant about many things, not least of which is the lands beyond their borders.
 
"Lore" is not the same thing as "fact", and the two terms should not be used as if they are interchangeable. The "lore" of Thedas consists mostly of rumours and myths. Even the "factual" stuff is filtered through the bias of whichever character happens to be writing about it.
 
But since people of various shades and hues have been present in Thedas since the very first game, nothing about the setting would be changing at all if BioWare were to increase representation of them.

Because internal consistency is for racists?

Yes, new information does tend to crop up in fictional literature. However, that information tends to be consistent within the world. Main characters in a spy thriller don't suddenly developer the powers of Superman. The Normandy does not fly out of Hawke's ass to end the mage uprising.

Yes, you can pull wild and random elements out of the ether for a fictional work, but it generally ends poorly, ie The Catalyst from ME3.

[SerCambria358]

According to the lore the skin tones of Rivaini can range in appearance from tan to ebony. Duncan and Isabela just happen to fall on the tan spectrum. 

 

Because some Rivaini are also described as ebony some fans assume that Vivienne and Scribbles are Rivaini. Whether or not that is the case, presumably those dark-skinned Rivaini would not look radically different. Would you say that Vivienne or Scribbles are not black?

Scribe girl has an Egyptian complexion  

[Gwydden]

Why does that objectively make a difference? Everything in Thedas is imaginary. Focusing on visual continuity only in certain areas is purely an issue of personal hang ups. It's literally no different in any practical sense.   

Not being able to decide when it comes to how a fictional being looks like (with the added impairment of the limitations inherent in game design) is the reason behind one of those. I don't see any similar justification for the other one.

[Silfren]

I think people need to get over this whole ''need for diversity thing'' The developers do not have to put east asians, native americans, Blacks in Dragon age if they don't want to. If the devs wanted all of thedas to be dark skinned then that would be their choice too. Not every series has to have a black or white person just to be politically correct.

 

If you'd bothered to read the last few pages you'd realize that your arguments have already been covered and refuted.  

[TKavatar]

That's interesting. But it doesn't explain the group of Qunari you fight in one of those map encounters who ALL look like Sten.

Those Qunari are labeled as Qunari mercenaries, ie. they're Tal Vashoth so they probably cut off their horns.

[JadePrince]

I think people need to get over this whole ''need for diversity thing'' The developers do not have to put east asians, native americans, Blacks in Dragon age if they don't want to. If the devs wanted all of thedas to be dark skinned then that would be their choice too. Not every series has to have a black or white person just to be politically correct.

 

I don't think it's about political correctness. It's about acknowledging that we live in a society where 'white' is seen as the default (both in real life and in the fantasy genre) and Bioware has the opportunity (with this shiny new game engine which renders dark-skin lovely) to challenge the idea that 'whiteness' has to be the default. It's not about being politically correct, it's about being interesting and creative and inclusive and doing something different/thinking outside the white-centric box. And it's just good world-building. What's the point of creating a whole fantasy world from scratch and then giving it the same limitations and biases of the real world? Bioware is already doing great with it's inclusion of queer romances-- would you have them take those out because that's just them being 'politically correct'?

[Nyeredzi]

*sigh*

 

Maybe certain groups of African-born persons with zero non-African heritage in their background don't look like that, but otherwise, no, your statement is utterly and completely false.

no even mixed people who are black don't have naturally long flowing hair. Its chemicals, or weaves. Their skin might go super light, and their hair might become looser, but it never flows, or changes color.

[Pirate Queen Isabela]

David Gaider-- 

 

There are indeed black people in Thedas-- the Rivaini have skin tones ranging from dark tan to ebony. You'll find them scattered in various places. As to whether or not we would ever have a party member who was Rivaini, we'll see. I don't think we would include it just for the sake of including it. As a character concept, representation of a real-world ethnic group is pretty weak if that's all it is.

Insofar as someone not liking the fact that Thedas is (very loosely) based on medieval Europe-- well that's nice, but we like it just fine.

 

I feel like Gaider thinks Black people = dark skinned and only that. I'm also wondering why Izzy and Duncan have straight hair. Were they just too lazy to add dreads, 'fros? The CC is very limited for Black people.

 

As a PoC myself, I get very happy when I see them in the game. Bioware has a history of whitewashing their own characters, displaying Izzy and Duncan both as white in official art, various times. Kaidan and Ashley, two very obvious PoC were white washed in the third game too.

 

As for diversity, I really want more PoC. More diversity in the CC, not just straight flat limp noodle hair. I'm surprised people think adding diversity is something small and doesn't change anything, when I went to the theater to watch the Princess and the Frog, a small Black girl was just brimming with excitement at how they made a princess "just like me!!" and to me that is why I love seeing diversity. 

[Jedi Master of Orion]

The whole Jade Empire argument doesn't really cut it when the entire discussion hinges on the fact of media that features stories predominantly or nearly-exclusively of white people.  It's an example of PoC *getting* representation, rather than being excluded.  

 

I am in no way saying that stories that are strictly about white people (or revolve mostly around) white people are inherently bad for that reason.  What I am saying is that such stories already saturate the market to the point where stories like Jade Empire are the exception, rather than being part of the norm, as they should be.  That is what is bad about it: stories told by and about white people dominate the market to the detriment of other stories.  

 

But it's still just one race of people that is getting represented. All the rest of are still being excluded. I know that "white people stories" are unfairly predominant in the media, but I don't like the idea that it means because of that they should never happen or can't be good anymore. That kind of what sounds like what you are saying.

 

I'll admit I never was able to play Jade Empire (by the time I decided I wanted to try it I couldn't find the game anymore), but I hear it was really good and I think would it would stand on it's own merits regardless of how much or how little asians were represented in the fiction. An example that I did play would be the 2001 real time strategy game, Battle Realms. That also appeared to almost exclusively include Asians but was still an rich and fascinating fantasy setting.

[Nocte ad Mortem]

Not being able to decide when it comes to how a fictional being looks like (with the added impairment of the limitations inherent in game design) is the reason behind one of those. I don't see any similar justification for the other one.

They've already said the old system didn't handle darker skin tones well and the new system handles them better, so there are your limitations. It's just as easy and not any more objectively wrong for them to have had second thoughts on their decision as to how either human genetics or ethnic distribution in Thedas exists.   

[Silfren]

Maybe you should ask them? They may have perfectly legitimate reasons. Some of them, anyway. My guess would be we default to what is familiar and more like ourselves, but I could be completely wrong.

 

This is a seriously flawed argument.  It's not a legitimate reason for a writer creating an all-or-nearly-all white society, especially if said writer actually comes from an area which is extremely racially diverse in the first place.  I could buy this argument for why a white writer might create a white *primary viewpoint* character, but under no circumstance does this apply to a white person creating a society where only white people exist, and any PoCs that show up are rare and entirely incidental.  The latter is the result of privileged blindness, nothing more.

[Altima Darkspells]

That's interesting. But it doesn't explain the group of Qunari you fight in one of those map encounters who ALL look like Sten. Clearly they weren't intending just one individual Qunari to look like that. It's not just the horns either, I mean, DA2's Qunari look COMPLETELY different. Unrecognizably different. My point is, the average player is not gonna know the behind the scenes story. They're just gonna play the second game and see that what we call a Qunari suddenly looks completely different. And if we, as players can handle that without pitching a fit, then it'd be pretty hypocritical to pitch a fit over Thedas suddenly seeming to have more POC characters running around. 
 
I'm just saying, Bioware doesn't HAVE to justify choices like this. Just like I don't need an explanation for them to change up their character models, I don't need to know why there's more diversity in this new game. I don't need reasons/explanations.

The problem with the Qunari retcon was that BioWare tried to work it into the lore when they should have just admitted to the retcon (like they did with the elves).

Qunari were supposed to have horns, but there were problems, so then Qunari didn't have horns. You have Sten. You have all the rebel qunari you meet (and kill).

But ogres were from Qunari. So Qunari females had the horns and not the males.

Then DA2 rolls around. Turns out, psyche, all qunari have horns. Except ones born to super special destinies, like Sten. And the rebels, who ritually remove their horns. Also, qunari females still have horns, but that's okay, since we'll never see them anyway. Except...all the Qunari rebels we meet in DA2 don't remove their horns. Because reasons.

The whole situation was a bunch of ass-pulling backpeddling. Which was pretty par for the course for DA2.

[JadePrince]

Those Qunari are labeled as Qunari mercenaries, ie. they're Tal Vashoth so they probably cut off their horns.

 

Okay, I mean, I guess you can find all manner of reasons to hand wave away the hornless Qunari, but you're missing the larger point I'm making. The character model for the people we know as Qunari, changed DRASTICALLY between games. If you showed someone who's never played DA a picture of Sten and a picture of the Arishok, they would NOT guess those two were the same race. MY POINT is that we, as players, accepted that change-- a much more drastic change than would be adding a few more non-white people to the world of Thedas. We accepted the change in appearance of the Qunari without demanding there be an explanation. Why do we need to demand a 'realistic' explanation for seeing more diversity in DA:I?

 

EDIT: Let's try not to get off topic by making this an argument about the Qunari. That's really not the point I'm trying to make here. I'm just using them as an example.

[Han Shot First]

I feel like Gaider thinks Black people = dark skinned and only that. I'm also wondering why Izzy and Duncan have straight hair. Were they just too lazy to add dreads, 'fros? The CC is very limited for Black people.

 

 

Again...the Rivaini have skin tones that can range from tan to ebony. The Rivaini then are probably a multiethnic people. If you need a real world equivalent, they would probably be closer in appearance to the people of the Dominican Republic than the people of Cameroon.

[Mockingword]

Because internal consistency is for racists?

Yes, new information does tend to crop up in fictional literature. However, that information tends to be consistent within the world. Main characters in a spy thriller don't suddenly developer the powers of Superman. The Normandy does not fly out of Hawke's ass to end the mage uprising.

Yes, you can pull wild and random elements out of the ether for a fictional work, but it generally ends poorly, ie The Catalyst from ME3.

I'm not sure you understand what internal consistency is.

 

There's nothing at all inconsistent about increasing the number of PoC present in Thedas. We already know they exist. Having more of them show up is not "lore-breaking" in any way.

 

With the extremely limited information we have about Thedas, the writers could do virtually anything they want and it would not be inconsistent.

 

And you don't read enough spy thrillers.

[Gwydden]

What's the point of creating a whole fantasy world from scratch and then giving it the same limitations and biases of the real world?

I agree with the rest of your post, and though this is not strictly DA related, I can imagine plenty of reasons. There was a similar criticism regarding A Song of Ice and Fire (the books HBO's Game of Thrones is based on, if you're not familiar with it). It was much more extreme than yours, but I remember someone saying in a blog that the only reason for those books to present a extremely sexist fictional world was so straight males could fantasize about a time when they had women subjugated.

 

...

 

Yeah, anyway. I'm not implying you have share that sort of... strange viewpoint at all, but not only with ASoIaF, but with speculative fiction in general, a world with the same limitations and biases of the real world can be perfect for telling stories about how to overcome these and their impact in society.

[CENIC]

A Dragon Age game set in Rivain with a majority dark-skinned cast would be pretty epic.
Rivain has interesting culture, and since ethnic Rivaini have darker skin tones, even the lore purists couldn't argue it.


Unfortunately... they probably wouldn't restrict the protagonist's ethnicity, but if they made the default look Rivaini, that would be a nice touch.

[Gwydden]

I feel like Gaider thinks Black people = dark skinned and only that. I'm also wondering why Izzy and Duncan have straight hair. Were they just too lazy to add dreads, 'fros? The CC is very limited for Black people.

 

As a PoC myself, I get very happy when I see them in the game. Bioware has a history of whitewashing their own characters, displaying Izzy and Duncan both as white in official art, various times. Kaidan and Ashley, two very obvious PoC were white washed in the third game too.

 Were we playing the same game?

 

Also, I feel I should repeat lots of people in India and the Middle East (for example) have dark skin and flowing hair. It happens a lot.

[Silfren]

But it's still just one race of people that is getting represented. All the rest of are still being excluded. I know that "white people stories" are unfairly predominant in the media, but I don't like the idea that it means because of that they should never happen or can't be good anymore. That kind of what sounds like what you are saying.

 

I'll admit I never was able to play Jade Empire (by the time I decided I wanted to try it I couldn't find the game anymore), but I hear it was really good and I think would it would stand on it's own merits regardless of how much or how little asians were represented in the fiction. An example that I did play would be the 2001 real time strategy game, Battle Realms. That also appeared to almost exclusively include Asians but was still an rich and fascinating fantasy setting.

 

Again, Jade Empire is a counter example to white-predominant stories.  It is NOT a valid argument to say that it has the same problem because it features only one group of people within its fictional setting.  The entire point is that there needs to be more diversity in media, and Jade Example is an example of exactly that, not because of any internal diversity but because it IS a story about PoC in the sea of stories about white people.  I would say the same thing about a gaming story that was featured in a predominantly African or Middle-Eastern setting, and featured such people accordingly.  I don't know how to make it any clearer than that; the idea that those games are examples of the same problem in reverse ignores the foundation of my argument in the first place: that there need to be more stories, not fewer, that don't center around white folks.  

 

I didn't address this in the previous post, but it's worth pointing out, I think that the movie version of Avatar: The Last Airbender is a sad example of media's tendency to whitewash.  They took an Asian story about Asian people and whitewashed it in the extreme.

[Pirate Queen Isabela]

Again...the Rivaini have skin tones that can range from tan to ebony. The Rivaini then are probably a multiethnic people. If you need a real world equivalent, they would probably be closer in appearance to the people of the Dominican Republic than the people of Cameroon.

 

If that is the case then my problem lies with Gaider calling them Black. He should have used the term PoC, not Black. There lies my problem, he could have said "Rivian have dark skin ranging from this to this, they are based off of Middle-easterners, off of  Indians, off of(insert something else)" not Black people. Especially as a writer he needs to watch his phrasing.

[Mockingword]

Yeah, anyway. I'm not implying you have share that sort of... strange viewpoint at all, but not only with ASoIaF, but with speculative fiction in general, a world with the same limitations and biases of the real world can be perfect for telling stories about how to overcome these and their impact in society.

If the story is about "real world" problems, why not just set it in the real world, and have it actually be about those problems?