287 réponses à ce sujet

[Nyeredzi]

According to the lore the skin tones of Rivaini can range in appearance from tan to ebony. Duncan and Isabela just happen to fall on the tan spectrum. 

 

Because some Rivaini are also described as ebony some fans assume that Vivienne and Scribbles are Rivaini. Whether or not that is the case, presumably those dark-skinned Rivaini would not look radically different. Would you say that Vivienne or Scribbles are not black?

Black people, are black people in the real world. Real black people can become really light, but no black person in the real world can naturally be born with long, flowing hair at all.

 

You want to assume Duncan and Isabella the "black" folk while they are more white than anything, because they fit your own preferences, not realities.

 

Reality, and your own preferences.

Reality

 

Sten, and Cahir look more black, than Duncan and Isabella.... and they are not even Rivaini.

 

Vivi and Scribe, no fake hair, then bingo, black.

[LOLandStuff]

@ the guy who has one preset when it comes to black people.

 

I grew up in a country in North Africa and there was this black kid with curly blond hair and clear green eyes. He didn't bleach his hair or wear lenses. He was a beggar in the streets. 

[dragondreamer]

I was under the impression Rivain was a melting pot of races and cultures.  And we don't know who all of the human peoples were who settled there back when, just that they're mostly different shades of dark.  But they might not all be black.  Rivaini culture feels somewhat Carribbean in flavor.

[General TSAR]

Real Black People?

 

What?

 

Oh BSN, never change. 

[AresKeith]

A Dragon Age game set in Rivain with a majority dark-skinned cast would be pretty epic.
Rivain has interesting culture, and since ethnic Rivaini have darker skin tones, even the lore purists couldn't argue it.


Unfortunately... they probably wouldn't restrict the protagonist's ethnicity, but if they made the default look Rivaini, that would be a nice touch.

 

Maybe the next DA game (if there is one) will be set in the northern countries, they we'll truly see more ethnic diversity

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Please, show me where I said other writers were in any way obligated to appeal to me.

 

No, stories aren't required to be diverse, but I am still allowed to critique them for a lack of diversity. Hell, I can critique them for any reason I damn well please

 

And for the love of god, just stop with the "obligation" nonsense. Not only is it already patently obvious to everyone with two braincells to rub together, it's not even a good argument.

 

"I'm not obligated to write x" Is the desperate cry of a person who can't come up with a legitimate defense of their artistic choices when questioned. 

 

No, authors are not obligated to write non-white characters, and nobody is saying that they are. We are simply asking why they apparently don't want to. "SO WHAT? I DON'T HAVE TO" is not a satisfactory answer.

Why? You were the one who said writing diversity doesn't need justification. Why does that artistic choice not need justification but others do?

 

And since you asked, frankly your behavior has always come across very much like you believe Bioware is morally obligated write more diverse characters.

[Gwydden]

If the story is about "real world" problems, why not just set it in the real world, and have it actually be about those problems?

What if I don't like to write stories set in the real world? What if I am really bad at it? What if I don't want to make the issue too close home, and think it's better to treat it in a fictional setting? What if that is not the main point of my story, but I still thought I would like to include it? What if the story is not about 'real world' problems, but just problems? What if I want to not shy away from showing discrimination, since it was and is a really big issue in the real world? What if I want to use a character concept that requires the existence of discrimination?

 

There can be lots of reasons for it. I'm not saying any of these apply to me personally, or that I'd like to try such a story. But I can see why other writers would want it.

[Pirate Queen Isabela]

 

 Were we playing the same game?

 

Also, I feel I should repeat lots of people in India and the Middle East (for example) have dark skin and flowing hair. It happens a lot.

 

Um, I hope so? Kaidan has Singaporean background and Ashley I believe Spanish?

 

I'm from the Middle-East with Moroccan and Egyptian heritage but that doesn't mean I have to have dark skin for you to know I'm a person of colour. Kaidan and Ash are both obviously Brown, despite everyone thinking they are White. (I never understood that? They don't look White until the third game?)

[SerCambria358]

If the story is about "real world" problems, why not just set it in the real world, and have it actually be about those problems?

 I dont understand why just because a story includes real world problems, it has to exclusively be set in the real world. The goal of doing something like that is to bring life and realism to the fantasy setting in order to draw in and immerse the audience. If realistic issues could only be shown in settings based in our reality then their goes all of fantatasy along with movies and comic books. Thats not a legitimate notion, in order to make your audience believe in the world you're portraying, you have to make the occurences in that world hit home, and nothing does that better than relating lifes issues with that audience 

[Gwydden]

Black people, are black people in the real world. Real black people can become really light, but no real black person can naturally possess long, flowing hair at all. You want to assume Duncan and Isabella "black" because they are more white than anything. They fit your own preferences, not realities.

 

As opposed to fake black persons...

[General TSAR]

(I never understood that? They don't look white until the third game?)

 

Could be that rediclious grain filter and the lighting. 

[Nyeredzi]

 Were we playing the same game?

 

Also, I feel I should repeat lots of people in India and the Middle East (for example) have dark skin and flowing hair. It happens a lot.

only they ain't black. Of which Gaider said that Rivaini are black people.... Maybe he thinks black people are the same as Middle Easterns, Indians, and Africans...I don't know

[Nyeredzi]

As opposed to fake black persons...

Those that don't exist....(born with naturally flowing, long hair)

[CENIC]

I think what Nyeredzi is saying is that there is a difference between having dark skin and being ethnically African, and he'd like to see more characters with African features in Thedas?

[Silfren]

Those that don't exist....(born with naturally flowing, long hair)

 

You got an interesting definition of flowing...and now you're saying that black people cannot have LONG hair?  Oy...

[General TSAR]

Those that don't exist....(born with naturally flowing, long hair)

What about the aboriginal people in Australia? 

 

Is anyone else getting tired of this whole debate concerning a nonscientific class of categorizing people? 

[JadePrince]

What if I don't like to write stories set in the real world? What if I am really bad at it? What if I don't want to make the issue too close home, and think it's better to treat it in a fictional setting? What if that is not the main point of my story, but I still thought I would like to include it? What if the story is not about 'real world' problems, but just problems? What if I want to not shy away from showing discrimination, since it was and is a really big issue in the real world? What if I want to use a character concept that requires the existence of discrimination?

 

There can be lots of reasons for it. I'm not saying any of these apply to me personally, or that I'd like to try such a story. But I can see why other writers would want it.

 

I think if you wrote that sort of story, you would be the exception, rather than the rule. I totally see what you're saying, but I'm gonna hazard a guess that the vast majority of people who write scifi/fantasy with worlds that are full of white people and straight men and ignore diversity, are doing it because it's easy, because that's the 'default' and it's 'too hard' to write about women/minorities. Most people are writing/creating those non-diverse worlds not because they're setting up a world-state that they want to challenge and examine. Most who write those sorts of worlds are doing it because it simply doesn't occur to them to do it any other way. And the more stories like that get published, the more it perpetuates this idea of the white-centric world as the default. And the more people who believe that, even in fantasy, there would/should only be white people.

[SerCambria358]

but they ain't black. Of which Gaider said that Rivaini are black people.... Maybe he thinks black people are the same as Middle Easterns, Indians, and Africans...I don't know

I think he meant Rivain consists of dark skinned individuals including "black" people. Same way the middle east does

[Silfren]

I think what Nyeredzi is saying is that there is a difference between having dark skin and being ethnically African, and he'd like to see more characters with African features in Thedas?

Perhaps that's what they mean, but what they're saying is that Black people can't have x features.  

[AresKeith]

I think what Nyeredzi is saying is that there is a difference between having dark skin and being ethnically African, and he'd like to see more characters with African features in Thedas?

 

I hope that's what he's trying to say

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Again, Jade Empire is a counter example to white-predominant stories.  It is NOT a valid argument to say that it has the same problem because it features only one group of people within its fictional setting.  The entire point is that there needs to be more diversity in media, and Jade Example is an example of exactly that, not because of any internal diversity but because it IS a story about PoC in the sea of stories about white people.  I would say the same thing about a gaming story that was featured in a predominantly African or Middle-Eastern setting, and featured such people accordingly.  I don't know how to make it any clearer than that; the idea that those games are examples of the same problem in reverse ignores the foundation of my argument in the first place: that there need to be more stories, not fewer, that don't center around white folks.  

 

I didn't address this in the previous post, but it's worth pointing out, I think that the movie version of Avatar: The Last Airbender is a sad example of media's tendency to whitewash.  They took an Asian story about Asian people and whitewashed it in the extreme.

 

I do think it was absolutely wrong of the live action movie to replace Sakka and Katara of The Last Airbender with white versions of them. But as I understand, that movie had a whole host of problems in properly translating the source material to the big screen.

 

But as I said before, I don't think it's fair that it makes stories with white characters inherently bad because there have been so many of them. I think stories should be able to stand on their own merits.

[Gwydden]

Um, I hope so? Kaidan has Singaporean background and Ashley I believe Spanish?

 

I'm from the Middle-East with Moroccan and Egyptian heritage but that doesn't mean I have to have dark skin for you to know I'm a person of colour. Kaidan and Ash are both obviously Brown, despite everyone thinking they are White. (I never understood that? They don't look White until the third game?)

 

That's interesting. Could you link me to any source, or at least give me an idea of where to find it? I always found Kaidan's name to be hard to place, but I never saw anything Spanish about Ashley. Her name, her looks, her accent seemed all very standard for an American, but then I could be wrong.

 

And I think the problem here is that what I consider "white" or "of colour" may be different from your own definitions. Cultural differences and all that.

[Mockingword]

Why? You were the one who said writing diversity doesn't need justification. Why does that artistic choice not need justification but others do?

 

And since you asked, frankly your behavior has always come across very much like you believe Bioware is morally obligated write more diverse characters.

Where did I say that? "Because I wanted to" is perfectly good justification. Hell, you can come right out and say "I'm a racist and I don't want non-white characters in my stories", and that will also be a perfectly valid justification. It just also happens to make you a terrible person.

 

"I'm not obligated to do what you want" is, however, not a justification. It's just dodging the question. Either because you don't want to examine yourself, or because you know what your answer is, and you know that people won't like it.

 

At no point have I ever said that BioWare is "morally obligated" to do anything. I have said that writing more diverse characters is the morally correct thing to do (in my opinion), which is not the same. BioWare is not obliged to follow my personal moral code anymore than I am obliged to buy their products.

[Silfren]

I do think it was absolutely wrong of the live action movie to replace Sakka and Katara of The Last Airbender with white versions of them. But as I understand, that movie had a whole host of problems in properly translating the source material to the big screen.

 

But as I said before, I don't think it's fair that it makes stories with white characters inherently bad because there have been so many of them. I think stories should be able to stand on their own merits.

 

And again, like I already stated very clearly, I have neither said nor implied that stories with white characters are inherently bad.  Stop putting words in my mouth.  

[Jedi Master of Orion]

A Dragon Age game set in Rivain with a majority dark-skinned cast would be pretty epic.
Rivain has interesting culture, and since ethnic Rivaini have darker skin tones, even the lore purists couldn't argue it.


Unfortunately... they probably wouldn't restrict the protagonist's ethnicity, but if they made the default look Rivaini, that would be a nice touch.

 

One of the reasons that I wanted to see Rivain is because it's probably the most ethnically and culturally diverse place in the entire continent. The impression I was left with in the lore is that Rivaini are racially varied and diverse because their dark skinned ancestors from the Boeric Ocean migrated to the mainland and mixed with the fair skinned inhabitants over generations.

 

In a Song of Ice and Fire, I was under the impression Dorne was supposed to be full of mixed ethnic groups in a similar fashion as well.