287 réponses à ce sujet

[Nyeredzi]

You DO realize that there's more to Black than African?

nope, black people are African descent folk who look African, they are Africans. random dark skinned people are not black. Call them such...see what happens

[SerCambria358]

contradicts

What?

[Mockingword]

Your media and my media are not necessarely the same. But even if I were to accept what you say as true, then it's perfectly possible to give non-whites a larger representation without it having to be done in shows with a white cast for no other reason than we simply can't have an all-white cast. Wanting for there to be shows that center around non-white characters is fine.

However, claiming that shows or games that center and homogeneous white cast is not acceptable is just a double standard.

What you need are games that center around a fantasy Africa or Asia. Not asking for more blacks or asians in fantasy Europe.

Are you seriously telling people that black characters can only appear in fantasy stories that are set in fictionalised Africa? 

[AresKeith]

I thought the different countries in Thedas and real world influenced Dragon Age ethnicities underline some sort of racial diversity.

 

Guess not

[JadePrince]

Are you seriously telling people that black characters can only appear in fantasy stories that are set in fictionalised Africa? 

 

I just... I don't even know where to begin with all that's wrong with MisterJB's comment. I mean... ugh. It's exhausting.

[Gwydden]

I thought Hispanic were a mix of Spanish, Italians, etc who I never considered white, actually. O: 

Caucasian doesn't equal white. Indians and Arabs are Caucasian. And this is why I said whether someone is white or not is all about cultural perception. I'm Hispanic, and I've always considered myself white   Similarly, I don't see anything about Asians that makes them not white. The more you know...

[LOLandStuff]

I get the feeling that black people in fantasy settings are not really black people because obviously only pure africans can be black. Thus in a fantasy world Africa doesn't exist, which means black people don't exist. And if we see a "dark skinned" guy, that's just some random guy who happens to have stayed too much in the sun.

[Silfren]

Your media and my media are not necessarely the same. But even if I were to accept what you say as true, then it's perfectly possible to give non-whites a larger representation without it having to be done in shows with a white cast for no other reason than we simply can't have an all-white cast. Wanting for there to be shows that center around non-white characters is fine.

However, claiming that shows or games that center and homogeneous white cast is not acceptable is just a double standard.

What you need are games that center around a fantasy Africa or Asia. Not asking for more blacks or asians in fantasy Europe.

 

Part of the problem, though, is that a lot of the stories about white people take place in real world settings which are by NO means homogenously white.  I can't tell you how many stories I've seen that are set in New Orleans, or Memphis, or Los Angeles, that have none, or maybe one or two, PoCs.  

 

And again, there are those stories which are claimed by an author to be all-white because the setting is allegedly based on a real-world nation-state which the author insists was historically all-white...even though a little bit of freaking historical research often proves this to be a total load of crap.  If you claim that your cast is what it is because historical accuracy, but your understanding of that history is obviously sorely lacking, you bloody well better expect to be called out for it.  But I've already addressed that part of the problem.

Having more stories about PoCs which are homogenous, to set against homogenously white stories, would be a start, sure, but that hardly means that we don't need more heterogenous stories, too.  

 

It's far too easy for white people--and I AM white--to whine that this is a double-standard.  Our stories literally dominate the market.  Small wonder that some of us want to react to that claim that we're really just arguing for a double standard with "oh, cry me an effing river."

[MisterJB]

An all-Asian cast is acceptable because it is a counter to the All-White, All-the-Time problem present in the overwhelming majority of stories.  

If you're incapable of grasping why an all-Asian cast is NOT at all the same thing as one more bloody story featuring all-whites, all-the-time, then I don't know how to explain it to you.  

I "bloody" get it. It's rarer to encounter an all-asian story than an all-white one. Except if you're in Asia, go figure.

 

But asking for more all-asian stories is not quite the same as asking for less all-white which is what you are doing.

Let's say that there are ten stories. 5 feature all-white casts, the other 5 feature all-asian. Why is it that you don't think representation can be achieved in that manner rather than having to put asians in the white stories?

[Nocte ad Mortem]

On the issue of "are all white casts/all Asian casts/etc" bad, no, they're not on an individual basis. I don't think anyone is arguing it's inherently bad or racist for a specific media to be mostly, or even entirely, composed of one race. The problem is when the HUGE majority are comprised of mostly or entirely the same race, sweeping all available media. Does Bioware have to be the one to make the step? Does it make them morally bankrupt racists if they don't do it? Of course not. That doesn't mean it's not a valid suggestion for them to consider it, or that it wouldn't mean a lot to many people that are mostly shut out of representation in entertainment. 

[Gwydden]

nope, black people are African descent folk who look African, they are Africans. random dark skinned people are not black. Call them such...see what happens

Be introduced to Native Australians.

[Pirate Queen Isabela]

Caucasian doesn't equal white. Indians and Arabs are Caucasian. And this is why I said whether someone is white or not is all about cultural perception. I'm Hispanic, and I've always considered myself white   Similarly, I don't see anything about Asians that makes them not white. The more you know...

 

Very true. I'm not sure what makes a person white, but I definitely don't see myself or the Arabs around me white. From what I've seen Arabs are a real mix of people, especially as a Bedouin Arab where everything is really jumbled up, imo.

 

I'm not Hispanic but my Hispanic friends always consider themselves not white but biracial.

[In Exile]

I "bloody" get it. It's rarer to encounter an all-asian story than an all-white one. Except if you're in Asia, go figure.

 

But asking for more all-asian stories is not quite the same as asking for less all-white which is what you are doing.

Let's say that there are ten stories. 5 feature all-white casts, the other 5 feature all-asian. Why is it that you don't think representation can be achieved in that manner rather than having to put asians in the white stories?

 

Why have this bizarre segregation instead of having a diverse cast that reflects our cosmopolitan society? 

[Silfren]

Obviously I haven't been successfully following your train of thought here, but when you said: "That is what is bad about it: stories told by and about white people dominate the market to the detriment of other stories" that sounded like you meant the solution to white characters' stories saturating the market is not to have them any more.

 

Could you help me understand what you did mean here instead, then?

 

Trust me, stories by and about white people, and exclusively white people, aren't going anywhere any time soon.  They're not endangered.  

No, the solution to white characters' stories saturating the market, is to feature MORE stories about people who are not white.  It would obviously mean by definition that those predominantly white stories no longer dominate the market so overwhelmingly, but that hardly means that those stories would stop being told, and arguing for such a thing in no way means that those stories are bad; just that they are not the only stories worth telling.

[Mockingword]

You're wrong on all three accounts, a story taking place in another world doesnt deduce that it cannot consist of problems we face in the real world (death, heart break, racism, poverty)

 

Something being fake doesnt conclude that immersion isnt necessary for some players or audiences to become invested in the story being told and the message being said.

 

A vast majority of people do find similarities with their real world issues, its one of the biggest draws for of story telling. Using GoT as an example of that, one of the major reasons GRR Martin recieves such praise is because he creates such realistic and relatable characters, i dont know which audience you consider the "vast majority" because im assuming you're only speaking from your own opinionated ideals. The most iconic stories most of the time are stories that hit home. 

For a problem to be "real world" it has to be happening in the real world. A death in Thedas is not at all the same thing as a death in the real world, because one of those deaths is the real death of a real person, while the other is the pretend death of a pretend person.

 

Immersion has never been necessary for me to enjoy fantasy at all, nor does a lack of immersion prevent me from becoming invested.

 

I have never found a single character in Game of Thrones even slightly relatable, if I did I'd probably hate myself. The level of violence in the series borders on cartoonish.

[JadePrince]

I "bloody" get it. It's rarer to encounter an all-asian story than an all-white one. Except if you're in Asia, go figure.

 

But asking for more all-asian stories is not quite the same as asking for less all-white which is what you are doing.

Let's say that there are ten stories. 5 feature all-white casts, the other 5 feature all-asian. Why is it that you don't think representation can be achieved in that manner rather than having to put asians in the white stories?

 

The problem with that example is that the situation you're presenting is one where diversity and representation is already equal and you're talking like white people would be losing something. If there are 10 stories, than a more accurate observation of the reality of mainstream media would be 9.9 of those stories are white and .1 of them are non-white. 

[Nyeredzi]

What?

"Rivaini are blacks people" "Middle Easterns are Arab dominant, blacks are very rare"

[Mockingword]

I just... I don't even know where to begin with all that's wrong with MisterJB's comment. I mean... ugh. It's exhausting.

All racist implications aside, what is even the point of trying to write fantasy if your settings can only be based on real places.

 

Like, why can't my story take place on a marshmallow planet, populated by sock puppets?

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Trust me, stories by and about white people, and exclusively white people, aren't going anywhere any time soon.  They're not endangered.  

No, the solution to white characters' stories saturating the market, is to feature MORE stories about people who are not white.  It would obviously mean by definition that those predominantly white stories no longer dominate the market so overwhelmingly, but that hardly means that those stories would stop being told, and arguing for such a thing in no way means that those stories are bad; just that they are not the only stories worth telling.

 

 OK That's fine, I agree, but I wasn't talking about the market as a whole, I'm talking about any given story on an individual basis.

[JadePrince]

All racist implications aside, what is even the point of trying to write fantasy if the settings you can only base your setting on a real place?

 

Like, why can't my story take place on a marshmallow planet, populated by sock puppets?

 

Because people like that still want a straight, white, male-dominated world, they just want there to be dragons in it too. :/ 

[In Exile]

All racist implications aside, what is even the point of trying to write fantasy if the settings you can only base your setting on a real place?

 

Like, why can't my story take place on a marshmallow planet, populated by sock puppets?

 

I don't understand this idea that a particular culture can only exist if people have the "right" skin tone.

[Nyeredzi]

I get the feeling that black people in fantasy settings are not really black people because obviously only pure africans can be black. Thus in a fantasy world Africa doesn't exist, which means black people don't exist. And if we see a "dark skinned" guy, that's just some random guy who happens to have stayed too much in the sun.

They can exist if they look like black people from reality, not half baked fakes trying to white wash a race

[dragondreamer]

Last time I checked, Hispanics are Caucasian xD

 

 

"Hispanic" can mean a lot of things, actually.  Which is why I don't care for the term even though it could be applied to me.  I don't identify as white, there's only one branch of my family that I can actually trace to european origins.  Characters like Fenris and Cassandra for example wouldn't be out of the ordinary in my family in terms of skin color and features, and as Mexicans we range from pale to very dark brown in my immediate family alone.  We get mistaken for everything from white, to asian to middle eastern.  I don't expect to be easily identifiable or even represented, but to be dismissed as "white person with a tan" is generally a nice way to be told I don't exist.  

[AresKeith]

Because people like that still want a straight, white, male-dominated world, they just want there to be dragons in it too. :/ 

 

Can we not?