103 réponses à ce sujet

[TheOneTrueBioticGod]

Sure, but what's the big difference between the attack on Palaven and Earth and the attack on Thessia? For one each Palaven and Earth have a far greater population and Shep would be much more emotionally invested in Earth. Wether Thessia is truly the center of all galactic economy is heavily debatable and the "crown jewel of the galaxy" remark is bland hyperbole. From what we got to see, Thessia wasn't very pretty or interesting actually.

It's the center of the galactic economy, has the largest economy of any planet, is the homeworld of the most powerful race, and has one of the largest, if not the largest, stockpiles of eezo in the galaxy. 

I don't see why Shepard would be emotionally invested in Earth, either. Besides, I'm pretty sure she was more mopey about being beaten by that poor excuse for character and losing the data on the catalsyt. 

[ImaginaryMatter]

No one ever proposed any of that. You're either terrible at making strawman arguments or semi-illiterate.

 

I'm guessing the former, no one could get that pretentious if they couldn't read well.

[ImaginaryMatter]

Well then, we have to ask ourselves why exactly...well...pretty much every suggestion on this forum is exactly the same thing, don't we?

 

Unless you can point me to a 'Character X should have been on the ship' complaint that has something resembling an arc with it? And please, for the love of God, no 'Miranda feels guilty over Cerberus.'

 

Or perhaps a Reaper solution suggestion that's more than 'Thematically pointless ability/weapon/technology is used to kill all the Reapers?'

 

Or a suggestion of where Shepard could have done that includes a plot? An established conflict, characters which develop and reinforce that conflict, a climax, and a resolution? I'll say that again in bold for you. An established conflict, characters which develop and reinforce that conflict, a climax, and a resolution?

 

Anything remotely of the sort?
 

 

Now we're at the point where we have to bust out that picture with all the logical fallacies written on it.

 

The cycle has repeated itself more times than we could imagine.

 

Edit: Found it:

 

[Jorji Costava]

@David7204:

I don't know if all things considered, a hub on Thessia would be the best way to go (personally, I was thinking that it might be best just to have the low point involve a pre-existing hub, maybe even the Citadel itself). Still, your objection here is uncharitable, to say the least.

Improving thematic resonance is precisely the reason that people are suggesting a hub on Thessia in the first place (see von uber's post at the top of the previous page). Having themes means dramatizing those themes; in other words, you have to show, rather than tell, what your story is about. The problem with Thessia (and arguably this is a recurring problem with the series itself) is that there was too much telling, not enough showing. That's what the hub is supposed to do; if Thessia is such a big deal, then show us that it's a big deal. One linear shooter mission is not going to make me care about Thessia appreciably more than it's going to make me care about Aite or Zorya.

 

EDIT: Fixed wording

[DeinonSlayer]

Well then, we have to ask ourselves why exactly...well...pretty much every suggestion on this forum is exactly that, don't we?

Unless you can point me to a 'Character X should have been on the ship' complaint that has something resembling an arc with it? And please, for the love of God, no 'Miranda feels guilty over Cerberus.'

Or perhaps a Reaper solution suggestion that's more than 'Thematically pointless ability/weapon/technology is used to kill all the Reapers?'

Or a suggestion of where Shepard could have gone that includes a plot? An established conflict, characters which develop and reinforce that conflict, a climax, and a resolution? I'll say that again in bold for you. An established conflict, characters which develop and reinforce that conflict, a climax, and a resolution?

Anything remotely of the sort?

Here's your first stop. That should keep you occupied for a while, provided you don't dismiss it with a scoff in the first thirty seconds.

Here's your second stop after that.

[Ryriena]

It's the center of the galactic economy, has the largest economy of any planet, is the homeworld of the most powerful race, and has one of the largest, if not the largest, stockpiles of eezo in the galaxy. 
I don't see why Shepard would be emotionally invested in Earth, either. Besides, I'm pretty sure she was more mopey about being beaten by that poor excuse for character and losing the data on the catalsyt.

I wanted not to feel mopey about earth or Thessia since they weren't my fault. Heck, Alexandra Shepard became cut scene stupid around Kai Lang but with Saren at least she punched him before he tried to get away.

[von uber]

Illium is a good example, a hub with interesting characters and missions that branch off them exploring more of the place and making it feel more real and have more of an attachment to.
Something similar for thessia or palaven could've been done.

[Pirate Queen Isabela]

One thing I never understood is why the Asari were so secretive. The war hit their political allies and they couldn't lift a finger (not even Earth, what about Palaven?) but the moment the war was on their doorstep they say "hey, we got something that might help!" and expect us to immediately come to the rescue?

 

The even more confusing part is how everyone kept saying they couldn't have known it would happen, like, did Asari government miss the whole Reaper invasion right next door? "No one saw it coming" made zero sense.

 

edit: oops, english mess up.

[Bob from Accounting]

Not the worst thing I've ever read, but has it's share of serious problems. if people are upset about Cerberus having too big of a role now, this is far heavier. At least now Cerberus is for the most part absent in the major arcs. Now everything and everyone takes a backseat to them, particularly the Alliance.

 

Neither the Crucible nor the ending are really fixed with this. Falls back on Dark Energy, which is shoddy. There's no real resolution between Cerberus and the Alliance, just the player choosing which one to side with. 

 

Honestly, it could overwhelmingly be summed up with 'Cerberus is nicer.' That's really mostly it.

[DeinonSlayer]

Not the worst thing I've ever read, but has it's share of serious problems. if people are upset about Cerberus having too big of a role now, this is far heavier. At least now Cerberus is for the most part absent in the major arcs. Now everything and everyone takes a backseat to them, particularly the Alliance.

Neither the Crucible nor the ending are really fixed with this. Falls back on Dark Energy, which is shoddy. There's no real resolution between Cerberus and the Alliance, just the player choosing which one to side with.

Honestly, it could overwhelmingly be summed up with 'Cerberus is nicer.' That's really mostly it.

I'm glad to see you took the time to read it. While it isn't perfect, I saw elements of it as an improvement over what we got, and I liked the "Landsmeet" towards the end where either Cerberus or the Alliance takes the lead.

At least it gives Cerberus more of a purpose in the plot than providing endless humanoid mooks to shoot at.

[wolfhowwl]

That we are, apparently, if we don't understand why slapping a hub world somewhere without tying it to any actual plot or theme whatsoever and thinking it's going to produce cares and feels is a bad idea.

 

As someone else wrote...

 

It's the center of the galactic economy, has the largest economy of any planet, is the homeworld of the most powerful race, and has one of the largest, if not the largest, stockpiles of eezo in the galaxy.

 

Thessia is completely justifiable as being a center of operations for the galactic resistance. There's your plot reason for Thessia being a hub world. The war effort that Shepard is involved with is organized around the world.  

 

Bioware wants us to care about the world? Make us. Through interactions in that hub the player could be shown how the world is key to the conventional war effort against the Reapers. You see how it is a hub for supplies, transporting troops, taking in refugees, repairing and refueling warships, etc.

 

As the defenses fail (there should be an emphasis on the Asari and their allies deploying massive military might in defense of the world) and the Reapers overrun Thessia, it's more than just another planet. Not only does the player now have exposure to the characters and location being smashed by the Reapers, they see the backbone of conventional military resistance being broken. They are being forced to retreat from their homebase.

 

With the Reapers seemingly delivering a crushing blow, we would be achieving a couple of things.

 

After Tuchanka and Rannoch, the player could feel that things were going rather well. This delusion is brutally dispelled and the player is reminded of just who is winning here.

 

Bioware wants people to buy into the Crucible being the key to victory. With this raw demonstration of the Reapers' might, the player would be shown (not told!) the futility of conventional military resistance. The concept that Prothean device is our only hope would be reinforced.

 

This is supposed to be an apocalyptic conflict. Events creating a feeling of desperation and hopelessness is appropriate.

 

Finally we would be bringing the conflict to a head. We've seen our fleets and armies fail, the Reapers are on the march everywhere, and we one last chance to survive. A chance that Cerberus just stole from us. 

[Bob from Accounting]

I don't like Thessia. In an ideal rewrite with infinite resources, I'd scrap it.

 

Partly because Shepard is there for the Crucible and Catalyst, which are both stupid, and partly because the asari are more-or-less thrown away. They're the most powerful species in the galaxy and should be acknowledged and utilized as such in the story. None of these rewrites cut deep enough to solve the problem.

 

The asari are a very ideal species, which makes it difficult to center a suitable conflict around them. Off the top of my head, I think what may have worked well is a theme of "What makes a person and a species wealthy/successful?"

 

The asari, of course, are the most superficially successful race. The wealthiest, the prettiest worlds, the fairest government, the most productive people. The oldest and the wisest. Fountains, skyscrapers, and snow-white concrete.

 

And basically, you have an arc that focuses on the asari losing all that and questioning their place. A tragic arc, but one that nonetheless enunciates a great truth. That buildings and traditions and wealth ultimately mean little. A strong theme of the most powerful race in the galaxy letting go of what isn't important and beginning again with what is. It brings the asari down to the level of the other races and neither praises them or sneers at them.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

I don't like Thessia. In an ideal rewrite with infinite resources, I'd scrap it.

 

Partly because Shepard is there for the Crucible and Catalyst, which are both stupid, and partly because the asari are more-or-less thrown away. They're the most powerful species in the galaxy and should be acknowledged and utilized as such in the story. None of these rewrites cut deep enough to solve the problem.

 

The asari are a very ideal species, which makes it difficult to center a suitable conflict around them. Off the top of my head, I think what may have worked well is a theme of "What makes a person and a species wealthy/successful?"

 

The asari, of course, are the most superficially successful race. The wealthiest, the prettiest worlds, the fairest government, the most productive people. The oldest and the wisest. Fountains, skyscrapers, and snow-white concrete.

 

And basically, you have an arc that focuses on the asari losing all that and questioning their place. A tragic arc, but one that nonetheless enunciates a great truth. That buildings and traditions and wealth ultimately mean little. A strong theme of the most powerful race in the galaxy letting go of what isn't important and beginning again with what is. It brings the asari down to the level of the other races and neither praises them or sneers at them.

 

I thought the reason the Asari were so successful was because they horded Prothean tech for their own gain. I doubt completely a lot of what you said, since it's basically shilling the entire race. I disagree completely with how the game treated them. I wanted to see them get kicked for their arrogance in the situation with the Reapers. 

[DeinonSlayer]

I thought the reason the Asari were so successful was because they horded Prothean tech for their own gain. I doubt completely a lot of what you said, since it's basically shilling the entire race. I disagree completely with how the game treated them. I wanted to see them get kicked for their arrogance in the situation with the Reapers.

Shh! Don't joggle the pedestal!

...earthquake test

[Bob from Accounting]

That's the most mature thing you have to say?

[MassivelyEffective0730]

That's the most mature thing you have to say?

 

Mature people earn mature responses.

 

I'll let that sit with you.

[General TSAR]

I wanted to see them get kicked for their arrogance in the situation with the Reapers. 

Assassinate the surviving Asari Matriarchs and sabotage any remaining economic infrastructure and bam the Asari Republics will be engulfed in strife and eventual civil war.

 

A fitting punishment no? Plus Samara will be there gunning down thousands of baddies.

[DeinonSlayer]

That's the most mature thing you have to say?

What's the point of coming here if we can't have a bit of fun with it?

Have another Monocle of Indignation award.

[Bob from Accounting]

These are the two more important things. The central theme, and the resolution. For Mass Effect, you probably need a significant choice at the end as well, so that might come third. Once those are in place, you write the plot and characters around them.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

What's the point of coming here if we can't have a bit of fun with it?

Have another Monocle of Indignation award.

 

There's no point being a grown-up if you can't be childish.

 

[DeinonSlayer]

These are the two more important things. The central theme, and the resolution. For Mass Effect, you probably need a significant choice at the end as well, so that might come third. Once those are in place, you write the plot and characters around them.

They probably would have been more successful had they chosen a central theme before the last ten minutes.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

They probably would have been more successful had they chosen a central theme before the last ten minutes.

 

Or the plot.

[Bob from Accounting]

They probably would have. That was no doubt a huge screw-up.

[DeinonSlayer]

They probably would have. That was no doubt a huge screw-up.

The turnover rate in the writing staff couldn't have helped either. I won't say Chris or Drew were perfect, but their loss had a very visible impact.

[Bob from Accounting]

That is just pointless and silly conjecture. In any case, a department changing over almost a decade is overwhelmingly the norm, not the exception.