103 réponses à ce sujet

[Ryzaki]

One thing I never understood is why the Asari were so secretive. The war hit their political allies and they couldn't lift a finger (not even Earth, what about Palaven?) but the moment the door was on their doorstep they say "hey, we got something that might help!" and expect us to immediately come to the rescue?

 

The even more confusing part is how everyone kept saying they couldn't have known it would happen, like, did Asari government miss the whole Reaper invasion right next door? "No one saw it coming" made zero sense.

 

Yeah I try to spacebar through that whole conversation now. Not sure if it's skippable or not. It's just a bad hamfisted way of going FEEL BAD FOR THE ASARI nvm the gov't is the reason they (along with everyone else) got boned.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Okay, how to make Thessia more relevant? I've got an idea. It's actually quite simple. Liara has Benezia's files. She mentioned them for the first time when you landed on Thessia. They were highly encrypted, and blah blah blah. Suppose instead of Tevos handing you the information about the archive, you had to do a little detective work using her mother's files before the invasion? It brings you to Thessia, you get to travel around and see the sights, meet people who are relevant to this plot - of course you have to write a story arc - but Cerberus is on your tail because they need Shepard to unlock that file in the archive. Cerberus only had a vague idea of its location - not an exact location in this version. There is still conflict. Then there is one file that needs an encryption code. Liara can't crack it. This is where the Asari Councilor comes into the story arc, but she only has access a cipher and knows nothing about anything else contained in the archive. As far as she knows everything was extracted from the archive hundreds of years ago. You go back to Thessia, and the Reapers have invaded. The last file points to the archive. It turns out Benezia was one of two who knew the truth and was supposed to pass it on to another. You're at the same point. Would you care more about Thessia?

[DeinonSlayer]

That is just pointless and silly conjecture. In any case, a department changing over almost a decade is overwhelmingly the norm, not the exception.

To be expected, yes. Beneficial, no. I've no doubt that was the source of things like the geth's dramatic reversal from how Chris characterized them. He would never have put EDI in a sexbot body and shipped her with Joker; he described the idea of synthetics yearning to be more like organics as not only bad, but offensive - yet that's exactly what both EDI and the Geth did in ME3.

[wolfhowwl]

It's also pretty obvious that series being dominated by a certain faction from ME2-on is connected to a change in lead writers.

[rapscallioness]

I agree. A mission on Thessia (or Palaven); or either as hubs before they are destroyed, would've made them matter more. They missed an oppurtunity to allow us to see the other races home planets and culture and make us care more.

This. Thessia was too short and too small. It comes late in the game after we've already seen so much destruction that Thessia is just one more. And it is important to see the other planets and cultures to make that connection. even Palaven was like this. Or rather Palaven's moon.

 

And if it was supposed to be a "dark night of the soul" moment, it needed to be a longer more involved mission. It was amazingly brief.

[kavox]

My Shepard, who is a Paragade of sorts would play it like this:

 

Shepard: "For three years you have known this was coming. In the last 6 months alone Earth, Palaven, Tuchanka and countless other worlds have felt the crushing wright of the Reapers. You saw yourself how your best ships paled in comparison to a single Reaper in Sovereign, yet now you claim ignorance, like a child caught breaking the rules and begging for mercy. Your hesitance cost the lives of millions when you refused to join us before, and now it may have doomed us all! The Salarians may have balked at helping us initially, but at least they came to the table and tried. You on the other hand couldn't have be bothered with diplomacy then. Your beacon could have saved billions, had you only followed your own laws and shared it with us, but no, you couldn't bear to share such a find with us, though we trusted you with the one we found on Eden Prime. It's true I failed in stopping Kai Leng, but look me in the eyes and tell me if my failure could ever match yours"

 

Tevos: "Then what is there for us to do Commander, my world has been torn asunder. Everything I have ever worked for, snuffed out in a instant"

 

Shepard: "Do you think people follow me because i bemoan my circumstances, or that i weep for the lost? No. I saw Earth being ravaged by the Reapers. Millions are still dying everyday, but while one human still draws breath, my fight is NOT over! That is my strength, that is why people follow me. Now, you have a choice; Will you let your people die for nothing, or will you join me and make the Reapers pay for every life they take!?"

[Zazzerka]

shepard: lol fuk u tevos

 

tevos: o noooo

 

shepard: *furiously masturbates*

[KaiserShep]

shepard: lol fuk u tevos

 

tevos: o noooo

 

shepard: *furiously masturbates*

 

Insanity Wolf would be proud.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

That is just pointless and silly conjecture. In any case, a department changing over almost a decade is overwhelmingly the norm, not the exception.

 

Status Quo isn't god you know. This actually not a good thing. Especially when one of the main creators was the gamerunner; the guy behind the vision.

 

Idea's get skewed and reversed, and the characterization and story plummet. Why did the Geth and EDI get a makeover in their characterization and story. among other things?

[Fixers0]

Talking to dead people is kind of unhealthy.

[Oni Changas]

My Shep would go Riley Freeman on her.

 

"**** you, **** your stupid ass leadership, **** your tacky dress, **** your head fringe, **** your weak military, **** your wealth, **** your culture, **** Asari in general. My girlfriend is blue and my councillor is black. If I see you on the Citadel, I'm slapping the **** out of you. Now get the **** out of my face." *disconnect*

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

**This post is meant to be tongue in cheek and is based on an episode of The Boondocks.

[Steelcan]

awww I missed another good thread....

 

 

anyways, i'd have to replay the mission with Irissa to have my witty comeback ready....

 

 

 

Can't remember how her dialogue is different

[themikefest]

I'm not sure what I would have my femshep say without using every 4-letter word in book at the councillor.

 

Tevos: Commander. Are you there?

 

femshep: Yeah I'm here you dumba**. What do you have to say about your species hiding an important artifact that could help with the war?

 

Tevos: I don't know what to say. On behalf of the Asari people, I formally apologize to you that the artifact was not revealed earlier.

 

femshep: Save your pathetic apology. Your species sucks. You idiots didn't give a crap about any other species except your own because you wanted to maintain your number one ranking in the galaxy by withhoding vital information that could've helped with the war effort. And now that we know what it is, it may of cost us the war.

 

Tevos: We had no idea what is was. So how can you blame us?

 

femshep: Shut up stupid. You idiots hid it from the galaxy and had a policy that if any Prothean ruins/artifacts were revealed, they were to be shared with the Council. Had the other species of known of the artifact, none of this would've happened. What makes it even worse? Once the repears were on your doorstep, you cry like little babies by saying you may have something that could help with the war. What I should do is fly over Thessia and air drop baby bottles  to shut you up.

 

Tevos: That kind of talk is unnecessary, Commander.

 

femshep: Kiss my a** dumb dumb. What explanation do you tell the rest of the galaxy that you failed to reveal the artifact that could've/would've saved lives? So don't tell me how I should talk. I now understand why I hate your species.  Your species is pathetic. Just to let you know, if by chance the repears are defeated, I will let the other species know of you not revealing the artifact earlier and that I recommend that you and all Asari are banned from ever setting foot on the Citadel again.

 

Tevos: That's a little harsh isn't it Commander?

 

femshep: You want harsh? How about having your species removed from Thessia and moved to Tuchanka and having the Krogan live on Thessia? That would be harsh. In fact that's not a bad idea. One last thing. If I ever find out that you knew of this artifact, I will hunt you down and kill you in the most vile way possible. This conversation is over.

[Han Shot First]

The whole Thessia sequence is straight out of Blake Snyder's Save the Cat! beat sheet (if you've ever wondered why a lot of Hollywood blockbusters seem so formulaic, it's because there's actually a literal formula that a lot of screenwriters are following). It's basically the "All is Lost/Dark Night of the Soul" moment of the story, the low point the protagonists are supposed to hit before the main conflict can finally be resolved. I get that you would want to include a moment like this; not every game can be an exhibition on stunningly original plotting, but my questions are:

 

1. Why does it have to be Thessia? The emotional stakes are a bit low for PC's who aren't super-invested in Liara, seeing as Thessia is a place we've never been to before and have little emotional connection with (I can't help but wonder if the choice of Thessia was a symptom of Liara's elevated importance).

 

 

 

What makes Thessia the emotional low point for Shepard isn't the loss of the planet itself, though losing the anchor of the galactic economy is certainly militarily significant. Its that Kai Leng defeating Shepard potentially foils the entire Crucible project, and by extension, the war effort. Shepard isn't depressed because he cares more about the Asari than anyone else, he's depressed because Thessia is potentially the point where the war is lost.

 

 

 

 

osbornep, on 10 May 2014 - 5:13 PM, said:

 

2. Why is the fall of Thessia immediately juxtaposed with the revelation that the Asari government is complicit in acts that undermined the war effort, only to force the player to be 100% sympathetic to representative of said government only moments later? A little perplexing.

 

I think this is a legitimate criticism. 

 

Part of the problem I think is that it is never exactly clear how the balance of power between the Citadel Council and local governments works. We do know that at least in some cases local governments enjoy a great deal of power and that the Council's authority isn't absolute. If Shepard cures the genophage for instance, its a Salarian dalatrass that is undermining the war effort rather than the Salarian Councilor, for example. But beyond that the relationship between local governments and the Council is a bit vague. So its hard to say how much of a role Tevos may or may not have had in concealing the Prothean V.I.

 

I think that exchange with Tevos (or her replacement) may have played out better had it been revealed that it was a local government that concealed the V.I., and that Tevos had been kept just as much in the dark as Shepard. Having the Councilor be someone who is attempting to do the right thing while being stonewalled by local politicians, would have made her more sympathetic.

[Applepie_Svk]

bit of good old sarcasm :  Well, that escalated quickly...

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

A thing that bothers me about the beacon from a narrative standpoint is that it feels like a reveal that was dropped as soon as it was introduced. We never hear or learn about what the consequences for asari are for hiding it, we never hear Hackett's opinion on the whole ordeal or any other high-ranking official. All the dialog post Thessia IIRC is about the actual fall of Theissa, Liara mourning over Thessia or Shepard's defeat at the hands of Cerberus. We never talk about the possible political consequences of this scandal, unlike with the genophage subplot.

[DeinonSlayer]

What makes Thessia the emotional low point for Shepard isn't the loss of the planet itself, though losing the anchor of the galactic economy is certainly militarily significant. Its that Kai Leng defeating Shepard potentially foils the entire Crucible project, and by extension, the war effort. Shepard isn't depressed because he cares more about the Asari than anyone else, he's depressed because Thessia is potentially the point where the war is lost.

I only wish, but no, Shepard is upset because of Thessia. Shepard says, quote, "Thessia fell, and that's on me."

Which is either enormously hypocritical or darkly hilarious depending on what Shepard did before then.

Shepard: "In case you haven't noticed, Joker, we just lost a few million people. This isn't the time!"
*sacrifices Kahje to save Jondam Bau, "the hanar did this to themselves - I need all the spectres I can get"*
*kills the Rachni Queen*
*shoots Mordin, lies to Wrex about it, shoots Wrex, lies to C-Sec about why Wrex attacked*
*arranges for 17 million people to be slaughtered by robots, chooses "they were stupid" dialogue option*
*alternately, shoots Legion three times and denies that synthetics are alive to begin with*
Joker: "Uh... really, Commander? You want to go there?"

The only genocide in the game that Shepard doesn't instigate is the one he gets upset about and takes responsibility for. He can be anything from callous to outright cowardly (lying to Wrex's face) about what he did to the others, but when it comes to the Asari, we can only choose varying degrees of deep sadness for them.
 

I think this is a legitimate criticism.

Part of the problem I think is that it is never exactly clear how the balance of power between the Citadel Council and local governments works. We do know that at least in some cases local governments enjoy a great deal of power and that the Council's authority isn't absolute. If Shepard cures the genophage for instance, its a Salarian dalatrass that is undermining the war effort rather than the Salarian Councilor, for example. But beyond that the relationship between local governments and the Council is a bit vague. So its hard to say how much of a role Tevos may or may not have had in concealing the Prothean V.I.

I think that exchange with Tevos (or her replacement) may have played out better had it been revealed that it was a local government that concealed the V.I., and that Tevos had been kept just as much in the dark as Shepard. Having the Councilor be someone who is attempting to do the right thing while being stonewalled by local politicians, would have made her more sympathetic.

The fact that traffic for the human embassy gets routed to the Asari embassy in the wake of the coup tells me there wasn't much thought put into how that was structured.

[Ryriena]

I thought we were in middle of an all out war with beings that you claimed did not exist? You have the nerve to withhold Prothen technology that could be useful in the upcoming battles and helpful in wining this war. Then you make a law that makes it illegal for other species to withhold Prothen technology so you could keep an advenagte in the Galatic society. Your the one that should be sorry for the people you have killed during this war.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

I only wish, but no, Shepard is upset because of Thessia. Shepard says, quote, "Thessia fell, and that's on me."

Which is either enormously hypocritical or darkly hilarious depending on what Shepard did before then.

Shepard: "In case you haven't noticed, Joker, we just lost a few million people. This isn't the time!"
*sacrifices Kahje to save Jondam Bau, "the hanar did this to themselves - I need all the spectres I can get"*
*kills the Rachni Queen*
*shoots Mordin, lies to Wrex about it, shoots Wrex, lies to C-Sec about why Wrex attacked*
*arranges for 17 million people to be slaughtered by robots, chooses "they were stupid" dialogue option*
*alternately, shoots Legion three times and denies that synthetics are alive to begin with*
Joker: "Uh... really, Commander? You want to go there?"

The only genocide in the game that Shepard doesn't instigate is the one he gets upset about and takes responsibility for. He can be anything from callous to outright cowardly (lying to Wrex's face) about what he did to the others, but when it comes to the Asari, we can only choose varying degrees of deep sadness for them.

The fact that traffic for the human embassy gets routed to the Asari embassy in the wake of the coup tells me there wasn't much though put into how that was structured.

 

Uh, not exactly. Tevos  is in the human councilor's office. Udina's office. Where does it say that traffic for the human embassy is routed to the Asari embassy? At the time of the coup Udina was both councilor and civilian leader of the Systems Alliance, unlike the other races. When he was killed Hackett became the leader of the Systems Alliance by default because there was no other leader. 

 

1) The Illusive Man got the location of Vendetta from The Mars Archives. That was not the fault of the Asari.

 

2) For all we know the Asari drained all the other knowledge from their archive on Thessia and shared it already. They had a 500 year head start on the Salarians. They live for 1000 years. Their economic advantage probably comes from holding galactic patents. They just wanted the galaxy to believe that they attained their prominence on their own without help of an artifact. Until the reapers arrived that didn't make any difference did it? No. It didn't. They didn't know about Vendetta. 

 

3) Vendetta wasn't programmed to reveal itself until the Crucible was completed. We were supposed to heed their warnings and build the Crucible before the Reapers arrived.

 

4) So Cerberus was just waiting for Shepard to go to Thessia and activate the archive so they could take Vendetta from him/her. 

 

5) Was the Crucible completed at the beginning of the war? No. If Shepard had gone to Thessia at the beginning of the war would Vendetta be available? No.

 

6) Thessia fell, that's on me. - I guess he says that to Hackett or Anderson. I don't remember. This just goes to show there was very little thought that went into writing the story.

 

Shepard's character arc is just so badly written from ME1 through ME3 that it isn't even funny. Or rather it is funny. It's hilarious at times. Renegade Shepard is such a b****. And while I understand and like the effort that went into giving Shepard some feelings in ME3, they should have given us a choice about which feelings. Of course that would have meant more dialogue and resources seemed to be at a premium. I disliked the mopey Shepard. While I wouldn't be the callous "they brought this on themselves" about Thessia, I wouldn't play it "Thessia fell, that's on me" either. Why? Because you could say the same about Earth or any of the systems.

 

So to cover up how bad the plot was, they write characters you care about. But that ending... if they'd only pulled their heads out their asses on the ending and given us a good one we wouldn't be picking this scab and digging all these flaws. If the story had a great ending would you really care if Shepard said "Thessia fell, that's on me?" No. But you're looking at this crap because the ending was ****.

 

Bad Writing Theory. It works.

[DeinonSlayer]

There's an intercom announcement heard on the Citadel after the Coup saying "all traffic for the human embassy should be routed to the Asari embassy until further notice."

I'll have to get back to you about the rest, but no, the ending doesn't really play into this.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

There's an intercom announcement heard on the Citadel after the Coup saying "all traffic for the human embassy should be routed to the Asari embassy until further notice."

I'll have to get back to you about the rest, but no, the ending doesn't really play into this.

 

We don't know why, and have no way of finding out. Unless that's where the Earth Ambassador has been given a temporary office until C-sec finishes their investigation. Udina kind of f***** up things and the office is a crime scene thanks to him. For reasons. Remember this is a bioware plot.

[Barquiel]

6) Thessia fell, that's on me. - I guess he says that to Hackett or Anderson. I don't remember. This just goes to show there was very little thought that went into writing the story.
 
Shepard's character arc is just so badly written from ME1 through ME3 that it isn't even funny. Or rather it is funny. It's hilarious at times. Renegade Shepard is such a b****. And while I understand and like the effort that went into giving Shepard some feelings in ME3, they should have given us a choice about which feelings. Of course that would have meant more dialogue and resources seemed to be at a premium. I disliked the mopey Shepard. While I wouldn't be the callous "they brought this on themselves" about Thessia, I wouldn't play it "Thessia fell, that's on me" either. Why? Because you could say the same about Earth or any of the systems.
 
So to cover up how bad the plot was, they write characters you care about. But that ending... if they'd only pulled their heads out their asses on the ending and given us a good one we wouldn't be picking this scab and digging all these flaws. If the story had a great ending would you really care if Shepard said "Thessia fell, that's on me?" No. But you're looking at this crap because the ending was ****.
 
Bad Writing Theory. It works.

Different writers have different ideas when it comes to Shepards character arc (and obviously don't talk to each other^^), I wouldn't read too much into it. Shepard says it's her responsibility that Thessia was conquered when she talks with Anderson...and two minutes later she mentions that we couldn't have stopped the reapers on Thessia even if we got there before Cerberus.

Anyway, as much as I want to roleplay a Shepard who cares more about Thessia...it's simply not possible. The idea that Shepard cares more about Thessia than any other planet is a bit absurd. Yes, Shepard is upset directly after the mission (I guess watching an entire planet being invaded in front of you for the second time is going to take a pretty heavy toll on your mental state), but Thessia itself is basically forgotten after the mission. You can ask Tevos about the evacuation efforts if you complete the AY monestary mission after Priority: Thessia. And then we see it in the epilogue again. And that's all.

[SporkFu]

 

3) Vendetta wasn't programmed to reveal itself until the Crucible was completed. We were supposed to heed their warnings and build the Crucible before the Reapers arrived.

I kinda thought that Vendetta was only programmed not to reveal the citadel being the catalyst until the crucible was built. When the archive is activated Vendetta just appears, without knowing the reason it was summoned. Its first words were (something like), "reaper presence detected. this cycle has reached its extinction terminus. systems shutting down." and then shep tells it to wait, that they need to know about the catalyst.

 

Javik says that with the temple being thousands of years old there was time enough for the asari to make "serious progress" -- meaning knowledge in general. The asari could have been interacting with vendetta on a limited scale for a long time. 

 

EDIT: On second thought, I just contradicted myself. Never mind. 

 

EDIT#2: On third thought, no I didn't. Vendetta tries to shut down because of reaper presence, not because there was nothing to say. Wow my thoughts were clearer before I typed them out, I swear it. 

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Different writers have different ideas when it comes to Shepards character arc (and obviously don't talk to each other^^), I wouldn't read too much into it. Shepard says it's her responsibility that Thessia was conquered when she talks with Anderson...and two minutes later she mentions that we couldn't have stopped the reapers on Thessia even if we got there before Cerberus.

Anyway, as much as I want to roleplay a Shepard who cares more about Thessia...it's simply not possible. The idea that Shepard cares more about Thessia than any other planet is a bit absurd. Yes, Shepard is upset directly after the mission (I guess watching an entire planet being invaded in front of you for the second time is going to take a pretty heavy toll on your mental state), but Thessia itself is basically forgotten after the mission. You can ask Tevos about the evacuation efforts if you complete the AY monestary mission after Priority: Thessia. And then we see it in the epilogue again. And that's all.

 

 

Writers: right hand - "Hey left hand what are you doing?"; left hand - "I'm not telling you. neener neener neener. What are you doing?"; right hand - "I'm not telling you either!"

 

And the entire premise of both statements - the one to Anderson and the one just a moment later is really crap: The Normandy couldn't have stopped a reaper invasion anyway. I feel like banging my head on my desk. It's some of the worst writing I've seen. What were they thinking?

[wolfhowwl]

Different writers have different ideas when it comes to Shepards character arc (and obviously don't talk to each other^^), I wouldn't read too much into it.

 

Isn't that just how Bioware writes their games?