268 réponses à ce sujet

[CrazyRah]

Well that's a list i suppose. I'd say it's quite terribad but i actualy didn't expect it to be anything else going in here

 

Kotor 2 > Kotor 

 

COME AT ME BRO! 

[Ryzaki]

Gonna go a bit off-topic here

My opinion of moral choice stems back from games like inFamous, BioShock etc. where the "evil" option is usually so cartoonishly villainous you'd have to be Jeffrey Dahmer, but even he wouldn't have called himself evil. The problem doesn't lie in as much about the villains being pure evil, as it does with how they are characterized or how utterly devoted they are to their own plans, being in control. A villain doesn't need to be sympathetic, or carry some sort of emotional weight to their schemes, they just need to be engaging. Hence why I like a character like say.. Adachi from Persona 4 and dislike a character like Trevor Phillips, and it's not necessarily because the latter is a psychotic (I love Brick Top from Snatch) it's because his actions make no sense at all, and it makes him become a really unlikable character.

Every GTA  & Saints Row game has you play as a complete sociopath-tic a-hole, but the difference being the former demonizes organized crime, and the latter romanticizes it. Despite spending most of the games mowing down people with an ice cream truck, the protagonists, are usually always in control of their actions, they have in their closest allies, they are conventional (Well, the Saints Row protagonist notwithstanding) but they have an overall strong motivation and carries great devotion to it. That sort of renegade "risky" non goody two-shoes karma path I can get behind.

 

Going back to KOTOR 1 quick -- Had Malak's characterization not been based of the Guide to Generic Villains, then he might have become a credible antagonist. Blowing random **** up is not how you take over a galaxy, Malak ol' boy.

 

Adachi would've been significantly better if he wasn't so damn obvious about pretending to be a doofus. (God the side kick villain ending makes me facepalm) True I can get behind that story too...I just usually prefer it be set in a more realistic setting and not in games with mind tricks and lightsabers. For me at least the moment there's magic and overly fantastical elements I stop taking the setting serious enough to be fully engaged in such a plot.  I can play it just fine but I'll more often have more fun being a jerkwad blowing crap up with my super powers. (For instance I'm much more intrigued in playing agent as someone who does crappy things for good reasons and good things for crappy reasons than I am with my SW. She's a good doer because she wants to be and a jerk because she wants to be. My agent is a non force user in a force user heavy world and has to stay on his toes to survive while trying not to compromise his morality (even my DS one has certain lines he won't cross) and my smug despite usually being a nice person will sell you out for a quick buck. That's just how she is.) For me to really enjoy the whole morally gray vs morally gray option my character needs to be in a position of weakness but able to use his/her intelligence to get ahead. (And Hawke didn't work because Hawke wasn't weak he/she was just incapable (or unwilling) to use their power and influence to their advantage politically.) 

 

I won't lie though killing a sith (especially in pvp) with an agent/smug never gets old. Especially sorcs. So squishy to MM rotation. Except madness kiting sorcs. Screw those bastards ;_;

 

XD to be fair he was never the brains in the operation that was Revan's department (For good reason).

[TheChris92]

Adachi would've been significantly better if he wasn't so damn obvious about pretending to be a doofus. (God the side kick villain ending makes me facepalm)

That was his stick though. In fact, the whole idea is that Adachi didn't really want to hide from the IT, he wanted to make a game out of his killings. He deliberately let clues about the investigation out to the party, so he could be entertained. He knew the functions of the TV world perfectly, and knew exactly how to convince an innocent man to unknowingly commit 3rd degree murder without realizing it. He was even utterly convinced that killing his first 2 victims was an act of justice, referring to them as "gold-diggers" hoping to swindle Namatame's money. He was an intruiging villain and I cannot wait 'till he comes back in the Arena sequel.
 

True I can get behind that story too...I just usually prefer it be set in a more realistic setting and not in games with mind tricks and lightsabers. For me at least the moment there's magic and overly fantastical elements I stop taking the setting serious enough to be fully engaged in such a plot.  I can play it just fine but I'll more often have more fun being a jerkwad blowing crap up with my super powers. (For instance I'm much more intrigued in playing agent as someone who does crappy things for good reasons and good things for crappy reasons than I am with my SW. She's a good doer because she wants to be and a jerk because she wants to be. My agent is a non force user in a force user heavy world and has to stay on his toes to survive while trying not to compromise his morality (even my DS one has certain lines he won't cross) and my smug despite usually being a nice person will sell you out for a quick buck. That's just how she is.) For me to really enjoy the whole morally gray vs morally gray option my character needs to be in a position of weakness but able to use his/her intelligence to get ahead. (And Hawke didn't work because Hawke wasn't weak he/she was just incapable (or unwilling) to use their power and influence to their advantage politically.)

Well, the problem in KOTOR is that the option for being morally grey is virtually non-existent, because you're always Revan McLovely, or Revan McBellend, and trying to being neither leaves you out of the best powers/bonuses and ultimately the game even forces you to choose a side at the end. It's not much fun. I enjoyed playing a jerkwad in Saints Row because that essentially was the point of it and you actually gain a lot from it. Alpha Protocl is essentially a ponce simulator, where you either play a professional ponce, sarcastic ponce or aggressive ponce, but the best part is that you can manipulate all parties to side with you, here's a sign of a conventional renegade without the cartoonish villainy. A smug Hawke was fun because he wasn't necessarily evil he was a bit of a bellend, with a mouth, but ultimately could be role-played as a character with a somewhat motive. Although, the ultimate problem with DA2 & Hawke is that there is no real overall motivation and it's just generally meh.

[Ryzaki]

That was his stick though. In fact, the whole idea is that Adachi didn't really want to hide from the IT, he wanted to make a game out of his killings. He deliberately let clues about the investigation out to the party, so he could be entertained. He knew the functions of the TV world perfectly, and knew exactly how to convince an innocent man to unknowingly commit 3rd degree murder without realizing it. He was even utterly convinced that killing his first 2 victims was an act of justice, referring to them as "gold-diggers" hoping to swindle Namatame's money. He was an intruiging villain and I cannot wait 'till he comes back in the Arena sequel.
 
Well, the problem in KOTOR is that the option for being morally grey is virtually non-existent, because you're always Revan McLovely, or Revan McBellend, and trying to being neither leaves you out of the best powers/bonuses and ultimately the game even forces you to choose a side at the end. It's not much fun. I enjoyed playing a jerkwad in Saints Row because that essentially was the point of it and you actually gain a lot from it. Alpha Protocl is essentially a ponce simulator, where you either play a professional ponce, sarcastic ponce or aggressive ponce, but the best part is that you can manipulate all parties to side with you, here's a sign of a conventional renegade without the cartoonish villainy. A smug Hawke was fun because he wasn't necessarily evil he was a bit of a bellend, with a mouth, but ultimately could be role-played as a character with a somewhat motive. Although, the ultimate problem with DA2 & Hawke is that there is no real overall motivation and it's just generally meh.

 

Hm...then again I'm one of those weirdos that preferred P3P over P4. (I'd rank P4 over vanilla and dude route P3 though). So it's just a difference of tastes I suppose. Also Adachi's sexism just made me wanna play a fem protag and kick him in the balls. >_>

 

True that's why you play an extremist I haven't played any SR other than 4 though. Or AP.

 

Snarky Hawke is really the only Hawke I can play and enjoy the game as. Diplo Hawke feels like he's in the wrong game and Aggressive Hawke I feel sorry for. Only snarky Hawke responds to the absurdity around him as it should be responded to
 

[slimgrin]

Not to say they haven't picked some good games but nostalgia reigns supreme at the codex.

[TheChris92]

Hm...then again I'm one of those weirdos that preferred P3P over P4. (I'd rank P4 over vanilla and dude route P3 though). So it's just a difference of tastes I suppose. Also Adachi's sexism just made me wanna play a fem protag and kick him in the balls. >_>

In terms of story, Persona 3 FES > Persona 4. In terms of villain, I'd say Adachi beats Strega and even Nyx, because I think it's easier to relate to a human villain with motivations, even if they are twisted, over a villain with non. Both games have their strengths, I'd also argue Persona 4's cast is generally more relatable then Persona 3 to an extent (partly because Persona 3 has Ken who is a blight), whereas there's more sense of progression with the relationship between the Persona 3 cast. Anyway, enough Persona chatter. Shouldn't derail this anymore with that
 
 

True that's why you play an extremist I haven't played any SR other than 4 though. Or AP.
 
Snarky Hawke is really the only Hawke I can play and enjoy the game as. Diplo Hawke feels like he's in the wrong game and Aggressive Hawke I feel sorry for. Only snarky Hawke responds to the absurdity around him as it should be responded to

Even extremists can have motivations even if they are deluded -- The evil option in KOTOR is not as such, it feels more less like a hollow experience, especially because the most joy one can get out of playing a jerk is when the game doesn't expect you to do so -- if its just solely to pull the rug from under the character's feet, like snark Hawke, or hurling cans in the NPCs faces in Half-Life 2.

[Ryzaki]

In terms of story, Persona 3 FES > Persona 4. In terms of villain, I'd say Adachi beats Strega and even Nyx, because I think it's easier to relate to a human villain with motivations, even if they are twisted, over a villain with non. Both games have their strengths, I'd also argue Persona 4's cast is generally more relatable then Persona 3 to an extent (partly because Persona 3 has Ken who is a blight), whereas there's more sense of progression with the relationship between the Persona 3 cast. Anyway, enough Persona chatter. Shouldn't derail this anymore with that
 
 
Even extremists can have motivations even if they are deluded -- The evil option in KOTOR is not as such, it feels more less like a hollow experience, especially because the most joy one can get out of playing a jerk is when the game doesn't expect you to do so -- if its just solely to pull the rug from under the character's feet, like snark Hawke, or hurling cans in the NPCs faces in Half-Life 2.

 

I preferred P3's cast honestly. They had crap but they mostly kept it to themselves. Save Junpei who was annoying as heck but loveable. I wanted to throw half P4's cast into an incinerator. Kanji and Naoto were the only ones I was fond of.  And I'd take Ken over that annoying as hell Chie. True true.

 

pfft. I liked my epic evil ending and no one shall take that from me.

 

Though JE has the best evil ending.

[Milan92]

I preferred P3's cast honestly. They had crap but they mostly kept it to themselves. Save Junpei who was annoying as heck but loveable. I wanted to throw half P4's cast into an incinerator. Kanji and Naoto were the only ones I was fond of.  And I'd take Ken over that annoying as hell Chie. True true.

 

I can't believe I'm reading all this 

[TheChris92]

I preferred P3's cast honestly. They had crap but they mostly kept it to themselves. Save Junpei who was annoying as heck but loveable. I wanted to throw half P4's cast into an incinerator. Kanji and Naoto were the only ones I was fond of.  And I'd take Ken over that annoying as hell Chie. True true.

 

Bah, alright, just this one last time.

One day you shall be smithed for those outrageous opinions, my friend -- Don't you be dissin' Da-Man. Junpei was hilarious, he also had the advantage of the more complex characters with his own set of issues and hardships like a regular teenager. Persona 3 had the advantage of more complex social links & characters, I also mentioned I liked the sense of progression in the relationship between the party more in Persona 3. Living together and seeing each other every day makes relationships bloom fruitfully, trust me I know all about that. But despite the complexity of Persona 3's cast, 4's was generally more relateable. But I'll let it all slide for now due to your disposition towards Naoto & Kanji at least.

 

Now, back to PC RPGs -- They placed some good games on the list and made some valid verdicts, so I can get over the ranking, since I feel ranking means squat about what one can say about a game's quality. It's better than any list Gametrailers would come up with at least. Ew.

[Khayness]

I've always loved Gothic 1 more than Gothic 2. Even though I played 2 first.

 

The penal colony feeling and the three different factions (which are more fleshed out than in G2) provide a wonderful atmosphere. Carefully crafted and large, but not sandbox RPGs ftw.

[Urgon]

IS it really nostalgia if they replayed the games recently? IT seems to me that the Top games are replayed  regularly on the site.

The older games (pre 98) are the ones i would expect being affected by nostalgia the most, but almost all of them are ranked lower in the list.

[Il Divo]

I find it hilarious they ranked Planescape so high when it's basically the text version of everything RPG Codex hates in a modern video-game. 

 

Edit: VtM:B is another funny choice, because again, a lot of things in terms of the actual gameplay that the Codex would normally hate. 

 

Agreed. With the right stats, there is practically no combat to the experience, turning it into essentially an Adventure game, similar to how the Mass Effect games might play. Even the style of text-writing in the game is designed to give a cinematic vibe to the affair.

 

 

As for the list, it's not as terrible as I might have thought, given the Codex's reputation. I personally would give the top spot to either Planescape: Torment, Dark Souls, or KotOR (which is ranked much too low, especially compared to Baldur's Gate).

 

On the other hand, I think Baldur's Gate 1 and Fallout 1 should be burned completely. From both a gameplay and narrative perspective, BG1 is absolutely terrible (imo).

[Il Divo]

IS it really nostalgia if they replayed the games recently? IT seems to me that the Top games are replayed  regularly on the site.

The older games (pre 98) are the ones i would expect being affected by nostalgia the most, but almost all of them are ranked lower in the list.

 

To an extent, but you can still be affected by nostalgia even while replaying older games.

 

KotOR was my first Bioware experience and (not so coincidentally) it's also my favorite. I often find it hard to objectively rank the game, since along with Morrowind it was my first exploration of narrative-based RPGs.

 

Baldur's Gate 1, on the other hand, is a game I absolutely loathe. Often when I ask what made the experience so amazing, I'm told how innovative it was. Sure, that might mean the game was inspirational (which it was), but doesn't make my actual play experience any better. As someone who played Baldur's Gate 1 long after all the hype was finished, I think it's kind of a mediocre piece. It's actually similar to how I felt reading the Dark Knight Returns for the first time. 

 

So even if I can't say for sure, nostalgia could potentially be a factor.
 

[UltimaBACON]

It's not a perfect list (especially with the placement of some games) but it's better than most. It at least recognizes the existence of quality RPGs most other lists do not.

[UltimaBACON]

As shown by having Icewind Dale over... well, anything really.

 

Icewind Dale is a solid game. Not much of a story but the tactical gameplay is perfect. Much better than the crap found in top lists everywhere else.

[Kaiser Arian XVII]

Icewind Dale is a decent game. I agree with UltimaBacon.

[In Exile]

Kotor 2 has beter writing, but I personally enjoy Kotor 1 over Kotor 2.

I think KoTOR 2 misses the point of being a Star Wars game. It's a Chris Avellone game, really. And it's relatively well written as a deconstruction of the setting, except for some very forced moments with Kreia. 

I also think KoTOR 2 - by being super mysterious about your own background - makes it really hard to RP right. They tried to PS:T your finding about your background, except you don't have amnesia. Playing through it when it comes up as relevant doesn't help, because my PC might never have had the character I chose if I knew about that scene. 

[In Exile]

It's an good list if you are looking for rpg mechamics but from a whole product perspective, some elements are lacking.

 

I'm not sure I'd agree with that when they have games like VtM:B ranked as highly as they do - in terms of RPG mechanics that game was a bit of a disaster, especially with how the mid-to-end game just goes ballistic in forcing combat. 

[UltimaBACON]

I think KoTOR 2 misses the point of being a Star Wars game. It's a Chris Avellone game, really. And it's relatively well written as a deconstruction of the setting, except for some very forced moments with Kreia. 

I also think KoTOR 2 - by being super mysterious about your own background - makes it really hard to RP right. They tried to PS:T your finding about your background, except you don't have amnesia. Playing through it when it comes up as relevant doesn't help, because my PC might never have had the character I chose if I knew about that scene. 

 

You don't have amnesia, but they exiled you without telling you the real reason why, and you spent years out of the loop. So it still works well.

[Milan92]

I think KoTOR 2 misses the point of being a Star Wars game. It's a Chris Avellone game, really. And it's relatively well written as a deconstruction of the setting, except for some very forced moments with Kreia. 

I also think KoTOR 2 - by being super mysterious about your own background - makes it really hard to RP right. They tried to PS:T your finding about your background, except you don't have amnesia. Playing through it when it comes up as relevant doesn't help, because my PC might never have had the character I chose if I knew about that scene. 

 

Hence why I prefer Kotor 1. To me, that game feels more like a SW game.

[In Exile]

You don't have amnesia, but they exiled you without telling you the real reason why, and you spent years out of the loop. So it still works well.

 

It's more than that. You basically flip the council off with your lightsaber. You have a pre-existing relationship with Atris, but still somehow choose to completely isolate yourself. You choose to obliterate Malachor V from existence (apparently). There's a lot there that's important to who the character might be that you don't know.