268 réponses à ce sujet

[Jorji Costava]

You don't have amnesia, but they exiled you without telling you the real reason why, and you spent years out of the loop. So it still works well.

 

I don't know if the Jedi ever explicitly tell you why you were exiled, but once you find out what the reason was, it's something that should have been pretty difficult to miss. Your character would have had to be pretty dense to not figure it out.

 

I also think the game could have benefited from being set hundreds of years after the original KOTOR; with the developmental timetable they had, Obsidian was never going to be able to make a more direct sequel to the original, and adding distance between the events of KOTOR I and KOTOR II would have allowed them to hand waive a lot of the differences in the universe that would have arisen from Revan's choices in the previous game. Also, it would cut down on all the references to Revan, which were largely unnecessary IMO.

 

Returning to the original topic, I'd probably agree with PS:T at #1. I was also heartened to see Jagged Alliance 2, Star Control II and Quest for Glory IV get some love; those are some of my favorite games of all time. Quest for Glory IV was one of the buggiest games I've ever played (anyone who's played it is probably very familiar with the notorious "Error 52"), but even so, it was my favorite entry of what I thought was a very ahead-of-its-time series. And Mass Effect especially owes a huge chunk of its DNA to Star Control II.

 

On the other hand, I thought Arcanum was rated way too high. The game just seems broken. It's very easy to build a character that just has no way of getting past those bandits in the first town, and there's no way to know in advance how to build your character the 'right way.' And even the most basic of navigation was an absolute chore; sometimes, I would find a fetch quest item and then get so badly lost just trying to go back to where I initiated the quest that I would have to reload. PS:T came out two years earlier and had none of these issues; no excuses, Arcanum.

[Abraham_uk]

They do a good job of explaining why they feel the games they like are good.

 

Whilst I take issue with the positioning, I don't have a problem with the actual reviews.

[In Exile]

That is my favorite game. What exactly was horrible out of the RPG mechanics in that game out of curiosity? In my opinion the character Roleplaying mechanics are one of the best. Different builds can be created and the world will react to those builds. Not to mention the dialogue is grey enough to play a wide range of characters.

 

I wasn't very clear in that post. I love VtM:B. I think it's one of the best RPGs - dialogue-wise - of all time. You have a lot of character options and the game is pretty reactive Some of the skills that they have are well well done, and certain characters (like the Nosferatu elder) are just brilliant. 

The problem with the game, IMO, is how they handle combat (i.e., by forcing a lot of it on you). But that wasn't where I was going with the post. Rather, it was that RPG Codex tends to hate action-RPGs. And VtM:B is very much an action RPG (not even well done combat wise). 

[In Exile]

On the other hand, I thought Arcanum was rated way too high. The game just seems broken. It's very easy to build a character that just has no way of getting past those bandits in the first town, and there's no way to know in advance how to build your character the 'right way.' And even the most basic of navigation was an absolute chore; sometimes, I would find a fetch quest item and then get so badly lost just trying to go back to where I initiated the quest that I would have to reload. PS:T came out two years earlier and had none of these issues; no excuses, Arcanum.

 

There are a lot of RPGs that are basically deified as "complex" character-building wise for having a lot of confusing trap abilities and an overall obfuscatory approach to character-builds that require a lot of time and energy to learn how not to screw up. 

[UltimaBACON]

It's more than that. You basically flip the council off with your lightsaber. You have a pre-existing relationship with Atris, but still somehow choose to completely isolate yourself. You choose to obliterate Malachor V from existence (apparently). There's a lot there that's important to who the character might be that you don't know. 

 

You flip them off with your lightsaber AFTER they pass judgment on you. It was obvious from the recording they weren't going to tell you why. And it was pretty well established that Atris was the angriest of them all (in fact, IIRC she wanted you executed).

[UltimaBACON]

I don't know if the Jedi ever explicitly tell you why you were exiled, but once you find out what the reason was, it's something that should have been pretty difficult to miss. Your character would have had to be pretty dense to not figure it out.

 

The cutting yourself off from the Force thing was obvious fairly early on. The other stuff wasn't so evident from the start.

[UltimaBACON]

D&D is terrible then. I have never played a game who's combat system I hated more. Seriously.

 

And at least KOTOR didn't have instant death bullshit. And time stop. Just...*throws hands up*

 

Aww, but I love Time Stop. (Well, at least the later, non-broken versions in 3.5 and up.)

 

Instant death, though, yeah, I agree it's straight-up bad, and no amount of "tradition" can defend it. As flawed as 4e is, I appreciated the attempt to curb the worst parts of D&D combat such as things like that. (I like Next's apparent way of handling save-or-dies with hit point thresholds and/or multiple fails needed to die.)

[Ryzaki]

Bah, alright, just this one last time.

One day you shall be smithed for those outrageous opinions, my friend -- Don't you be dissin' Da-Man. Junpei was hilarious, he also had the advantage of the more complex characters with his own set of issues and hardships like a regular teenager. Persona 3 had the advantage of more complex social links & characters, I also mentioned I liked the sense of progression in the relationship between the party more in Persona 3. Living together and seeing each other every day makes relationships bloom fruitfully, trust me I know all about that. But despite the complexity of Persona 3's cast, 4's was generally more relateable. But I'll let it all slide for now due to your disposition towards Naoto & Kanji at least.

 

Now, back to PC RPGs -- They placed some good games on the list and made some valid verdicts, so I can get over the ranking, since I feel ranking means squat about what one can say about a game's quality. It's better than any list Gametrailers would come up with at least. Ew.

 

pfft. I was too annoyed by most of P4's cast antics. Marie was a nice addition.

 

oh come on that's hardly a fair comparison!

 

 

Aww, but I love Time Stop. (Well, at least the later, non-broken versions in 3.5 and up.)

 

Instant death, though, yeah, I agree it's straight-up bad, and no amount of "tradition" can defend it. As flawed as 4e is, I appreciated the attempt to curb the worst parts of D&D combat such as things like that. (I like Next's apparent way of handling save-or-dies with hit point thresholds and/or multiple fails needed to die.)

 

Time Stop was only bareable when I was using it. So much cheese.

 

See that doesn't sound so bad. But nothing sucks harder than being imprisoned then getting the damn game over screen cause goddamn elder orbs spam the ****.

[TheChris92]

I think KoTOR 2 misses the point of being a Star Wars game. It's a Chris Avellone game, really. And it's relatively well written as a deconstruction of the setting, except for some very forced moments with Kreia. 
I also think KoTOR 2 - by being super mysterious about your own background - makes it really hard to RP right. They tried to PS:T your finding about your background, except you don't have amnesia. Playing through it when it comes up as relevant doesn't help, because my PC might never have had the character I chose if I knew about that scene.

That's like saying games like Silent Hill 2, 4 & Metal Gear Solid 2 misses the point of their respective main franchises, despite carrying pretty much the same principles but with a twist. KOTOR 2 still has pretentious preachy bellends running around in bathrobes swinging their glowy willie extensions around like nobody's busines, it also has a bunch of pillocks in black robes, drawing squiggles on their faces with permanent marker, lastly it has the force, blaster rifles, whacky alien races etc. It's Star Wars at its very core but with some welcomecomplexity added into it which this franchise has been begging for since Empire Strikes Back.

How is the amnesia thing any different from the whole Revan aspect of KOTOR 1? Both protagonist have an established background -- the difference I see though is that the player chooses what kind of Jedi the Exile was and how she/he chooses to deal with the past and become stronger for it. Revan's was more set in stone from the get-go.

[TheChris92]

pfft. I was too annoyed by most of P4's cast antics. Marie was a nice addition.
 
oh come on that's hardly a fair comparison!

Thought they were all well written and each felt genuinely level headed and real to me. Marie was bad, her implementation was so bad and forced she litterally comes off as being a fanfic self-insert character, her social link was meh and her character was awful. She's actually so uninteresting and unimportant that the game even flat out says, that not saving her will erase her from existence as if she wasn't there to begin with. I'll attest to that game. Also, what comparison? To me there isn't one Persona game that's better than the other. Persona 3 has its flaws and strengths, so does Persona 4, really.

[Ryzaki]

 

Thought they were all well written and each felt genuinely level headed and real to me. Marie was bad, her implementation was so bad and forced she litterally comes off as being a fanfic self-insert character, her social link was meh and her character was awful. She's actually so uninteresting and unimportant that the game even flat out says, that not saving her will erase her from existence as if she wasn't there to begin with. I'll attest to that game. Also, what comparison? To me there isn't one Persona game that's better than the other. Persona 3 has its flaws and strengths, so does Persona 4, really.

 

See I liked the whole fanservice thing because awesome dungeon and boss battle :3 But that's not why she's erased from existence. She does it to herself by succumbing to the fog (which alternatively means you failed and didn't fully erase what's her name and she'll probably be back since Marie was part of her).

The Game Trailer comparison

[In Exile]

That's like saying games like Silent Hill 2, 4 & Metal Gear Solid 2 misses the point of their respective main franchises, despite carrying pretty much the same principles but with a twist. KOTOR 2 still has pretentious preachy bellends running around in bathrobes swinging their glowy willie extensions around like nobody's busines, it also has a bunch of pillocks in black robes, drawing squiggles on their faces with permanent marker, lastly it has the force, blaster rifles, whacky alien races etc. It's Star Wars at its very core but with some welcomecomplexity added into it which this franchise has been begging for since Empire Strikes Back.

How is the amnesia thing any different from the whole Revan aspect of KOTOR 1? Both protagonist have an established background -- the difference I see though is that the player chooses what kind of Jedi the Exile was and how she/he chooses to deal with the past and become stronger for it. Revan's was more set in stone from the get-go.

 

Star Wars is a black and white setting. Trying to introduce Grey & Grey morality into Star Wars is like trying to have a dark and gritty reboot of Dora the Explorer. It fundamentally misses the entire point of the setting - and the actual nature of the force - to turn it into something that it is not. It's not quite at the level of MGS 2 outright trolling fans with Raiden, however.

 

The player doesn't choose who the Exile is, because a lot about the exile is far more set than Revan. The amnesia wipes away the old identity. With the Exile, there is an old identity. You just don't know what it is until the developers decide it's time to clue you in on your attitude to war crimes. Even the idea that the Exile is hung up on any of these issues of the past is predetermining your character, because they don't even tell you these are internal conflicts you're supposed to be having before you encounter them.  

[Mr.House]

Surprisingly a good list for PC RPGs, though some placements I don't agree with but I'm surprised this list is good considering the overall site is from  a cesspool of hatred.

[TheChris92]

   

See I liked the whole fanservice thing because awesome dungeon and boss battle :3 But that's not why she's erased from existence. She does it to herself by succumbing to the fog (which alternatively means you failed and didn't fully erase what's her name and she'll probably be back since Marie was part of her).

Fanservice is ew. Her implementation was tacked on, and the way she's connected to the plot just didn't click. Itcame off as if she was written in as an after thought to justify adding in a new ending and try to explain a plot point from the original in the most poor fashion imaginable. The only reason I even bother with her in the game is to open up the ski-trip part of the game. Heck, Arena even ignored her too and it seems Ultimax will too in which case I can safely convince myself she never existed to begin with

The Game Trailer comparison

Why though? Game Trailers is essentially the lowest end of the spectrum, so you could call it a compliment thattheir list isn't in the slightest as bad as that of Gametrailers typical Top 10's.

[Mr.House]

Bah, P2 beats both P3 and 4 you two. 

[Ryzaki]

Fanservice is ew. Her implementation was tacked on, and the way she's connected to the plot just didn't click. Itcame off as if she was written in as an after thought to justify adding in a new ending and try to explain a plot point from the original in the most poor fashion imaginable. The only reason I even bother with her in the game is to open up the ski-trip part of the game. Heck, Arena even ignored her too and it seems Ultimax will too in which case I can safely convince myself she never existed to begin with

Why though? Game Trailers is essentially the lowest end of the spectrum, so you could call it a compliment thattheir list isn't in the slightest as bad as that of Gametrailers typical Top 10's.

 

Of course it was it was an updated rerelease! Pfft well more Marie for me then *huggles*

 

That's my point. It's like having a child go against a boxer. That's not a fair right.

 

@House: I'd take P2 over P4 but not over P3P.

[Mr.House]

Of course it was it was an updated rerelease! Pfft well more Marie for me then *huggles*

 

That's my point. It's like having a child go against a boxer. That's not a fair right.

 

@House: I'd take P2 over P4 but not over P3P.

Big Maya and Ulala>

[Seboist]

Big Maya and Ulala>

 

Maya and Ulala are the best Persona dames alongside Mitsuru,Yukino,Yukari and Liz.

[TheChris92]

Star Wars is a black and white setting. Trying to introduce Grey & Grey morality into Star Wars is like trying to have a dark and gritty reboot of Dora the Explorer. It fundamentally misses the entire point of the setting - and the actual nature of the force - to turn it into something that it is not. It's not quite at the level of MGS 2 outright trolling fans with Raiden, however.

Think you missed my point of comparison with Metal Gear -- MGS2 is a post-modern take on the stealth genre and on Metal Gear Solid as a whole, plot-wise. It turned everything upside down, and I'd argue it did in a splendid fashion, with a perplexing plot, that literally put the players in Raiden shoes. I'd get into it more deeply, but let's focus on KOTOR 2. To me, that game introducedthe kind of complexity that slightly existed in Empire Strikes Back, but was then turned into the generic sci-fi fantasy of Return of the Jedi. Saying that gray-morality has no home in Star Wars, means that you essentially are saying that characters like Kyle Katarn & Jolee Bindo are superficial. All fiction are works of humans, and I'd argue that all humans are equally capable of doing good as well as bad things. It's silly to think that it doesn't exist in this or that universe. Star Wars isn't just the Lucas films anymore, it's bigger than the films. Star Wars fans have all grown up now and it's time the games/movies, do the same thing. Not any of that moral choice bullocks, where being 'evil' involve little more than foaming at the mouth and kicking the nearest old lady/orphan down a flight of stairs. Which is funny, if you're twelve. Or the blatant good two-shoes pillock who hands the nearest cripple a sum of money for starving grandchildren.

 

It fundamentally misses the entire point of the setting - and the actual nature of the forc

Yes, it certainly doesn't have any retarded midichlorians and thank **** for that. The Wounds in the Force exists to provide perspective on the Force as a whole, and it served the story the creators wanted to tell about over-reliance on superficial trivialities like droids, blasters etc instead of trusting yourself or your own capabilities.

The player doesn't choose who the Exile is, because a lot about the exile is far more set than Revan.

She had an identity like Revan, yes, and like Revan it slowly comes back to her, but it's the player's choice to decide what kind of Jedi she was during the war, and how to deal with it so she may become stronger for it. Heck, the past is a personified villain the Exile has to fight to ultimately succeed her goal and it doesn't necessarily represent the person she is now. She doesn't need some bratty Twi-lek twerp to tell her that. In fact,the holorecording of the protagonist's exile essentially grants the player control of the brush, to paint, how they interpret thet exile -- You can either acknowledge to Atris or the Council that you went to war because it was the right thing to do, or because you enjoyed it, or because you think the Council are a bunch of pillocks etc. I'd argue that leaves plenty of room for role-playing. The rest is ultimately up to the player to decide for him/herself, where the game would only leave vague allusions to what kinda character she might have been.

[Ryzaki]

Big Maya and Ulala>

 

XD both awesome.
 

[Mr.House]

XD both awesome.
 

[TheChris92]

Of course it was it was an updated rerelease! Pfft well more Marie for me then *huggles*

It doesn't really excuse the fact that she was **** and badly implemented into the game. If she wasn't such an obvious plot-device then maybe she wouldn't have been ****. You keep Marie-Sue I'll take the vastly superior cast of Persona 4 then

[Mr.House]

It doesn't really excuse the fact that she was **** and badly implemented into the game. If she wasn't such an obvious plot-device then maybe she wouldn't have been ****. You keep Marie-Sue I'll take the vastly superior cast of Persona 4 then

And according to the rumor she's only in Q to handle Street Pass unlike the Velvet siblings who will handle store, requests and personas, so even Q is giving her a smaller role.