268 réponses à ce sujet

[Il Divo]

How is the amnesia thing any different from the whole Revan aspect of KOTOR 1? Both protagonist have an established background -- the difference I see though is that the player chooses what kind of Jedi the Exile was and how she/he chooses to deal with the past and become stronger for it. Revan's was more set in stone from the get-go.

 

The established background isn't the problem. The Exile's own knowledge of his own background is. Revan was your character's former identity, but you (and your character) are not aware of that. So any role-playing decision you made through the first 75% of KotOR is unaffected by that knowledge. And any role-playing decision you make after that point can be made with your recently revealed identity in mind.

 

The Exile is the character you're supposed to be in control of, but in effect the writers treat him as an npc, with how certain plot twists come to light. You're making role-playing decisions for this character before you understand all the major events that led to the current moment. This makes him fundamentally different from Revan in terms of player control.
 

[Cainhurst Crow]

lol, I love how playability and functionality of gameplay aren't even considered as qualities for what make a good rpg on that list. Its one of the only list for video games in which the game portion of the criteria doesn't matter.

[TheChris92]

The established background isn't the problem. The Exile's own knowledge of his own background is. Revan was your character's former identity, but you (and your character) are not aware of that. So any role-playing decision you made through the first 75% of KotOR is unaffected by that knowledge. And any role-playing decision you make after that point can be made with your recently revealed identity in mind.

With the main exception that Revan's choices can be boiled down to either being Revan McLovely or Revan McBellend. I don't think I need to go into what's wrong with the crappy moral choice system of most video games again, where Star Wars is most certainly a happy subscriber, so let's leave it like that. Now before anybody jumps to contrived conclusions, I am not saying KOTOR 2 is not a small-time offender of this, but I am saying that the Exile is provided more ambiguity in her dialogue. Ultimately, the player isn't really offered much choice of establishing Revan's personality, because the game offers no middle ground or any larger basis to work from, because it's mostly derived from his actions alone. Sure, The Exile has a past and it's only vaguely alluded to as the game progresses, but already on Peragus or in the first conversation with Kreia you get the idea that -- You are a Jedi, you fought in the Mandalorian Wars, you've been away from some time. In fact, most of the NPCs, including the HK droid on Peragus offers enough background for the player to workfrom. I don't see no difference here, or even lack of role-playing opportunities, from The Exile to a character like Geralt or even Revan..

But I'm gonna lay all the cards on the table now since I ultimately know where this is going. This discussion can literally be boiled down to a matter of taste - no matter what amazing reasons anyone gives someone could always turn round and say "meh, nah, I still find it dull." In which case everyone else could probably quite rightly say "well, you're pretty weird then."

I think we've all said our peace on why we dislike this and that already.

[Il Divo]

1) With the main exception that Revan's choices can be boiled down to either being Revan McLovely or Revan McBellend. I don't think I need to go into what's wrong with the crappy moral choice system of most video games again, where Star Wars is most certainly a happy subscriber, so let's leave it like that.

 

2) Now before anybody jumps to contrived conclusions, I am not saying KOTOR 2 is not a small-time offender of this, but I am saying that the Exile is provided more ambiguity in her dialogue. Ultimately, the player isn't really offered much choice of establishing Revan's personality, because the game offers no middle ground or any larger basis to work from, because it's mostly derived from his actions alone.

 

3) Sure, The Exile has a past and it's only vaguely alluded to as the game progresses, but already on Peragus or in the first conversation with Kreia you get the idea that -- You are a Jedi, you fought in the Mandalorian Wars, you've been away from some time. In fact, most of the NPCs, including the HK droid on Peragus offers enough background for the player to workfrom. I don't see no difference here, or even lack of role-playing opportunities, from The Exile to a character like Geralt or even Revan..

4) But I'm gonna lay all the cards on the table now since I ultimately know where this is going. This discussion can literally be boiled down to a matter of taste - no matter what amazing reasons anyone gives someone could always turn round and say "meh, nah, I still find it dull." In which case everyone else could probably quite rightly say "well, you're pretty weird then."

I think we've all said our peace on why we dislike this and that already.

 

1) It's not an exception. I'm not going to disagree that KotOR 2 gave the Exile more diverse dialogue, but that doesn't alter the fact that none of KotOR's role-playing decisions come as a surprise to the protagonist.

 

2) I'd say identifying your character's identity as a bloodthirsty maniac says something about his personality. Aside from which, you do have more than a few opportunities in conversation with companions to delve a bit more into who your character is via sarcasm, etc.

 

3) And those are the vague details. The game does not offer anything regarding why you have a strained relationship with the Jedi Council, the fact that you know (or can despise) Atris, or the fact that you're responsible for murdering a planet. All traits more than capable of affecting how you role-play and much of this information isn't given until about a quarter into the game, if not more. If I had prior knowledge of how my conversation with the Jedi Council had gone, that can alter my character's perspective on any number of events.

 

4) I'd disagree.  Preferences is "do you prefer chocolate or vanilla ice cream?" This is a case of definitions. Character-defining knowledge is critical to building a coherent character, which is itself critical to role-playing (Note: avoiding RPG label here). In KotOR 2, via the Mass Shadow Generator, you find out that you were responsible for the slaughter of thousands. That's not something the game should be throwing at your character in a "Oh hey, plot twist!" fashion, especially since it's knowledge your character would have right from the get go.
 

[addiction21]

RPGcodex... why am I supposed to care?

[Mr.House]

lol, I love how playability and functionality of gameplay aren't even considered as qualities for what make a good rpg on that list. Its one of the only list for video games in which the game portion of the criteria doesn't matter.

Alot of those RPGs had good gameplay, seems to be the case of it's old so it sucks.

[UltimaBACON]

3) And those are the vague details. The game does not offer anything regarding why you have a strained relationship with the Jedi Council, the fact that you know (or can despise) Atris, or the fact that you're responsible for murdering a planet. All traits more than capable of affecting how you role-play and much of this information isn't given until about a quarter into the game, if not more. If I had prior knowledge of how my conversation with the Jedi Council had gone, that can alter my character's perspective on any number of events.

 

4) I'd disagree.  Preferences is "do you prefer chocolate or vanilla ice cream?" This is a case of definitions. Character-defining knowledge is critical to building a coherent character, which is itself critical to role-playing (Note: avoiding RPG label here). In KotOR 2, via the Mass Shadow Generator, you find out that you were responsible for the slaughter of thousands. That's not something the game should be throwing at your character in a "Oh hey, plot twist!" fashion, especially since it's knowledge your character would have right from the get go.
 

 

Precisely none of which you, the player, really needed to know before the first conversation with Atris, which is when all the important stuff got revealed. Every single one of the lines you said to Atris were keyed to whether you were Goody McGooderson, Evil McEvilson or various shades in between (said shades were absent from KotOR1). While at the same time, giving you, the player, valuable information in an organic manner. So, no, the player's lack of knowledge about the Exile's past really didn't factor into that particular role-play scenario.

 

Info-dumping the Exile's entire background in the first hour or so would've been clumsy and lazy and left no room for suspense. Doing it FFXIII database style would've been even worse. Obsidian balanced the need to role-play with the need to tell a story pretty well here, really.

[Eternal Phoenix]

It's RPG Codex guys. Of course it's going to be a terrible list.

 

LOL they have Mass Effect but not Mass Effect 2. They think Mass Effect is better somehow. We're talking about the game with clumsy combat, illusionary choices and empty worlds is somehow better than the sequel which improved the gameplay and gave some choices which actually did have consequences.

 

No surprise Obsidian made it on the list with every entry. NWN2 makes it but not NWN 1. LOL.

[Mr.House]

It's RPG Codex guys. Of course it's going to be a terrible list.

 

LOL they have Mass Effect but not Mass Effect 2. They think Mass Effect is better somehow. We're talking about the game with clumsy combat, illusionary choices and empty worlds is somehow better than the sequel which improved the gameplay and gave some choices which actually did have consequences.

 

No surprise Obsidian made it on the list with every entry. NWN2 makes it but not NWN 1. LOL.

Seeing as ME2 sucked ass, it's good it's not on the list.

[bussinrounds]

  Because the best part of NWN was the toolset.  MotB was better than any of the official content, from either of the games.  (from a 'story elements' standpoint…which is big, cause the gameplay from both NWN games is pretty crappy) 

 

  (and I was surprised to see any ME game on the list)  

[Mr.House]

  Because the best part of NWN was the toolset.  MotB was better than any of the official content, from either of the games.  (from a 'story elements' standpoint…which is big, cause the gameplay from both NWN games is pretty crappy) 

Indeed, Really not surprising that die hard Bioware fans are upset Obsidian/Black Isle dominated the list.

 

Man I miss Black Isle.

[bussinrounds]

    I'd love to see a list on this site.  Actually, I wouldn't.

[Ryzaki]

 

*squees everywhere*

 

 

It doesn't really excuse the fact that she was **** and badly implemented into the game. If she wasn't such an obvious plot-device then maybe she wouldn't have been ****. You keep Marie-Sue I'll take the vastly superior cast of Persona 4 then

 

I'd take Marie-Sue gladly over Chie. Though I will fight you to the death over Kanji. He's MINE.

 

Indeed, Really not surprising that die hard Bioware fans are upset Obsidian/Black Isle dominated the list.

 

Man I miss Black Isle.

 

Hey I'm a massive BW fan I'm not upset. I simply accept I have different tastes

[In Exile]

Precisely none of which you, the player, really needed to know before the first conversation with Atris, which is when all the important stuff got revealed. Every single one of the lines you said to Atris were keyed to whether you were Goody McGooderson, Evil McEvilson or various shades in between (said shades were absent from KotOR1). While at the same time, giving you, the player, valuable information in an organic manner. So, no, the player's lack of knowledge about the Exile's past really didn't factor into that particular role-play scenario.

 

Info-dumping the Exile's entire background in the first hour or so would've been clumsy and lazy and left no room for suspense. Doing it FFXIII database style would've been even worse. Obsidian balanced the need to role-play with the need to tell a story pretty well here, really.

 

It's not that scenario. It's the whole morality of the character. If I'm forced written into using a weapon of mass destruction to eradicate a planet in the middle of a war because I think it's worth it, because I think it's necessary, that shows a kind of ends-justifies-the-means reasoning that defines a character. Whether it's something a character wholeheartedly embraces or did reluctantly is a substantial and significant portion of who a person is, and who they could become. KoTOR II hides that from you, until they decide that it is somehow relevant plot-wise to tell you. That's a huge deal. 

 

Compare PS:T with KoTOR II. Both games relate to a mystery surrounding the protagonist. But in one case, the protagonist is actually privity to the mystery. That's a big, big difference. 

[Jorji Costava]

Info-dumping the Exile's entire background in the first hour or so would've been clumsy and lazy and left no room for suspense. Doing it FFXIII database style would've been even worse. Obsidian balanced the need to role-play with the need to tell a story pretty well here, really.

 

Guess I'm not sure why info-dumping the reveal about the mass shadow generator at Dantooine, most of the way through the game, is less clumsy and lazy than info-dumping it earlier on (it seemed to work well enough in ME with the various backgrounds Shepard could have). I also don't know why the player needs to be kept in suspense about the backstory of the character he or she is supposed to be playing. Lastly, you could have always made the mass shadow generator business a playable sequence at the beginning of the game.

 

What it boils down to is that I think the developers wanted the game to have a Planescape: Torment-style "Surprise! Your character is a jerk!" reveal, but didn't want to go back to using the device of amnesia to justify it (especially since memory manipulation had been a prominent plot point of the previous game). The awkward solution they came up with is to have your character have access to critical information that's kept away from you, the player, so that the revelation of this information can be a plot twist.

 

EDIT: Fixed some wording.

[Kaiser Arian XVII]

lol, I love how playability and functionality of gameplay aren't even considered as qualities for what make a good rpg on that list. Its one of the only list for video games in which the game portion of the criteria doesn't matter.

 

Where the hell is the full list anyway? I only see random ranking there.

 

If they've added Might and Magic 6-8 on their list they're doing it right.

[Cainhurst Crow]

Alot of those RPGs had good gameplay, seems to be the case of it's old so it sucks.

 

Nah, this is even self admitted by the list makers for their number one ranked "game".

 

If they do keep playing despite that, they are met with terribly shallow encounter design and an RPG system that seems more like a strange cross between Choose Your Own Adventure books and an adventure game, based around puzzles and conversations. Even calling it an RPG is almost a matter of some debate.

 

Its like calling a Crown Victoria the best automobile because it shows you can mass produce a law enforcement car.

[ObserverStatus]

I haven't really played enough of the games on this list to say if it's good or bad. Still, I feel like I must wag my finger at RPG Codex for ranking The Witcher above Dragon Age: Origins and Knight of the Old Republic, those game were actually fun.

[UltimaBACON]

Guess I'm not sure why info-dumping the reveal about the mass shadow generator at Dantooine, most of the way through the game, is less clumsy and lazy than info-dumping it earlier on (it seemed to work well enough in ME with the various backgrounds Shepard could have). I also don't know why the player needs to be kept in suspense about the backstory of the character he or she is supposed to be playing. Lastly, you could have always made the mass shadow generator business a playable sequence at the beginning of the game.

 

What it boils down to is that I think the developers wanted the game to have a Planescape: Torment-style "Surprise! Your character is a jerk!" reveal, but didn't want to go back to using the device of amnesia to justify it (especially since memory manipulation had been a prominent plot point of the previous game). The awkward solution they came up with is to have your character have access to critical information that's kept away from you, the player, so that the revelation of this information can be a plot twist.

 

EDIT: Fixed some wording.

 

Uhhh, it's revealed MUCH earlier than that. Namely, the first few times you speak to Bao-Dur. And doesn't come out as even remotely plot-twisty.

[UltimaBACON]

It's not that scenario. It's the whole morality of the character. If I'm forced written into using a weapon of mass destruction to eradicate a planet in the middle of a war because I think it's worth it, because I think it's necessary, that shows a kind of ends-justifies-the-means reasoning that defines a character. Whether it's something a character wholeheartedly embraces or did reluctantly is a substantial and significant portion of who a person is, and who they could become. KoTOR II hides that from you, until they decide that it is somehow relevant plot-wise to tell you. That's a huge deal. 

 

Compare PS:T with KoTOR II. Both games relate to a mystery surrounding the protagonist. But in one case, the protagonist is actually privity to the mystery. That's a big, big difference. 

 

No, it really isn't a big deal. At no point, storytelling-wise, was it necessary for the player to know beforehand that the character committed an atrocity 10 years ago before it came up in conversation. And when it did the responses were varied, with at least one of them more or less in line with the type of character I was playing.

[In Exile]

No, it really isn't a big deal. At no point, storytelling-wise, was it necessary for the player to know beforehand that the character committed an atrocity 10 years ago before it came up in conversation. And when it did the responses were varied, with at least one of them more or less in line with the type of character I was playing.

 

There are numerous options for pragmatic, DS choices on Taris before you even meet up with Bao-Dur properly. Whether I jump all-in on Czerka or not depends a great deal on what I think my character's alignment is going to be in the game. 

 

Your arguments are all premised on the idea that this information only matters in its own world of "what happened on Malachor V". But moral choices aren't that isolated. 

[UltimaBACON]

You're defeating your own argument. With all the numerous, pragmatic choices on Taris forming your character and how you're reacting to the world you as the player have seen so far, it's easy to imagine how your character would've acted when given their history and past actions later in the game. It just wasn't important to include background on your past actions right away when you had already spent a lot of time defining your character's actions here and now.

[In Exile]

You're defeating your own argument. With all the numerous, pragmatic choices on Taris forming your character and how you're reacting to the world you as the player have seen so far, it's easy to imagine how your character would've acted when given their history and past actions later in the game. It just wasn't important to include background on your past actions right away when you had already spent a lot of time defining your character's actions here and now.

 

No, I'm not defeating my argument. You're not following it. I didn't say I chose the pragmatic option. I said those options existed, and whether I committed mass murder and eradicated a planet with a WMD will affect whether or not I see my character as choosing them. In fact, I happen to think KoTOR 2 is wholly incompatible with a pure LS character in a very fundamental way. I would never have played a pure LS character had I known about the the use of the WMD. But I didn't know about it, so suddenly Jedi Jesus is an unrealistic conception whose I either have to (i) invent some insane ex post justification for the WMD or (ii) restart so that I have a consistent character. 

 

A character who thinks certain lines are never to be crossed for any reason can't exist in KoTOR 2, because you cross that line at least once.