268 réponses à ce sujet

[UltimaBACON]

10 years ago, in exile from the rest of the galaxy since, with time to think about your actions and atone. Hardly incompatible with pure LS, if you wanted to go that route for whatever reason.

[Dominus]

Fun is irrelevant to RPGs. Know this.

Sometimes it seems like that's true. I've seen many cases where games with critically above-average games get absolute and glorious praise. Arcanum was a great game and one of my favorites, but I can also count plenty of reasons I loathed it. A lot of the level design of dungeons in that game boiled down to confusing, labyrinthian, and felt very game-y. This was incidentally something I'm paraphrasing from the earlier review of the best PC/Console RPGs via RPGcodex.

The point I'm trying to make is it seems like people are willing to stomach an incredible amount of pain for a healthy amount of awesome. My feelings of this also fit with AP and a few others.

I feel like I must wag my finger at RPG Codex for ranking The Witcher above Dragon Age: Origins and Knight of the Old Republic, those game were actually fun.

If they'd said the second witcher, I'd be OK with that. The first is similar in my feelings to Arcanum. The combat isn't very satisfying, and was merely a means to reach the roleplaying stuff. Considering how much the second's mechanics changed from the original, they heard that one loud and clear.

Daggerfall is apparently free on the Elder Scrolls Website. I think you need DOSBOX, and that's it.

[In Exile]

10 years ago, in exile from the rest of the galaxy since, with time to think about your actions and atone. Hardly incompatible with pure LS, if you wanted to go that route for whatever reason.

 

Like I said: I can come up with my own post-hoc explanation. But I don't know I need one, I don't know I need to explain why my character would ever be OK with WMDs, before the game goes "oh, by the law, you used WMDs". 

[TheChris92]

1) It's not an exception. I'm not going to disagree that KotOR 2 gave the Exile more diverse dialogue, but that doesn't alter the fact that none of KotOR's role-playing decisions come as a surprise to the protagonist.

The heck are you talking about? None of the choices come as surprise, most of it is flat out delivered to you at the start of the game -- the background story for the Mandalorians are ultimately irrelevant for deciding what kind of character she is, like Geralt & Revan she has a backstory, but like them too it is only delivered to the player vaguely as the story progresses, so they use their infinite power of imagination to build from there. Sure, the game wants your input on it
 
 
 
 

2) I'd say identifying your character's identity as a bloodthirsty maniac says something about his personality. Aside from which, you do have more than a few opportunities in conversation with companions to delve a bit more into who your character is via sarcasm, etc.

You're arguing this point as if this wasn't the case with The Exile. There's plenty of opportunity for the player to establish what sort of Jedi she is in conversation, I'd argue more, but I've done that already. Why Revan needs to get a free-pass is beyond me.
 
 
 
 

3) And those are the vague details. The game does not offer anything regarding why you have a strained relationship with the Jedi Council

Now you're arguing as if the choice derived from you -- The player can choose to be ignorant about anything with the Council and when the game actually reaches the part of Telos with the holorecording, you can just flat-out say that you agree with their decision and don't hold any grudges.


 

If I had prior knowledge of how my conversation with the Jedi Council had gone, that can alter my character's perspective on any number of events.

Since I'm in a good mood today I'm gonna partly agree with you here, that more exposition on that part could have been provided, but I think it's clear what the Council did to the Exile from the get-go, and I don't believe that any form of dialogue from any NPC needed to point that out for the player. But that's just me.
 
 
 

4) I'd disagree.  Preferences is "do you prefer chocolate or vanilla ice cream?" This is a case of definitions. Character-defining knowledge is critical to building a coherent character, which is itself critical to role-playing (Note: avoiding RPG label here).

Right, and that's your critical preference to how you role-play I'm happy for you. People don't necessarily need a complex character sheet to work from, some can role-play a complete blank character should they so choose. Do I want that? Not really, I got my preferences and I don't always need everything told to me for me to role-play a role. It falls into the whole argument of do you prefer to have a voiced or non voiced, do you prefer your character to have a backstory etc. If you ask me though -- I'd say the game provides enough if not more connection to Revan, not just because the story doesn't involve defeating the Sith as much as it does around the character you play. This is the kind of discussion that cannot go anywhere but one way, buddy. So let's end it here, but one final thing..
 
 

In KotOR 2, via the Mass Shadow Generator, you find out that you were responsible for the slaughter of thousands. That's not something the game should be throwing at your character in a "Oh hey, plot twist!" fashion, especially since it's knowledge your character would have right from the get go.

I don't know about you but I'd say that makes for some very interesting material to work from. I'd argue that the whole principle with The Exile losing her connection to the Force, without the Council's intervention, leaves clues enough for it not to be a complete surprise. You're acting as if it was pulled out from the writer's biggest and sweatiest ass.

[Il Divo]

1) Precisely none of which you, the player, really needed to know before the first conversation with Atris, which is when all the important stuff got revealed. Every single one of the lines you said to Atris were keyed to whether you were Goody McGooderson, Evil McEvilson or various shades in between (said shades were absent from KotOR1). While at the same time, giving you, the player, valuable information in an organic manner. So, no, the player's lack of knowledge about the Exile's past really didn't factor into that particular role-play scenario.

 

2) Info-dumping the Exile's entire background in the first hour or so would've been clumsy and lazy and left no room for suspense. Doing it FFXIII database style would've been even worse. Obsidian balanced the need to role-play with the need to tell a story pretty well here, really.

 

1) Every major decision your character has made informs who your character is. Your  logic is that because Atris isn't brought up until Taris, it's not critical information. But even up until that point, you're given conversations with both Atton and Kreia regarding how you regard the Jedi Council and yourself. If I'd known about the recording before hand, I would have been much more critical of the Jedi Council when the topic of my banishment came up.

2) And surprising the player with information their character knows is clumsy role-playing.

[Il Divo]

You're defeating your own argument. With all the numerous, pragmatic choices on Taris forming your character and how you're reacting to the world you as the player have seen so far, it's easy to imagine how your character would've acted when given their history and past actions later in the game. It just wasn't important to include background on your past actions right away when you had already spent a lot of time defining your character's actions here and now.

 

You're misunderstanding. Revan's background isn't relevant because his background is completely incapable of informing who the blank slate character you're put in charge of is. Likewise with the Nameless One.

 

Your example would be relevant if my PC somehow already knew he was Revan, but simply chose to hide the information from everyone around him. The background you design for your PC is completely separate from his previous identity, to the point of being two separate characters.

 

[In Exile]

Right, and that's your critical preference to how you role-play I'm happy for you. People don't necessarily need a complex character sheet to work from, some can role-play a complete blank character should they so choose. Do I want that? Not really, I got my preferences and I don't always need everything told to me for me to role-play a role. It falls into the whole argument of do you prefer to have a voiced or non voiced, do you prefer your character to have a backstory etc. If you ask me though -- I'd say the game provides enough if not more connection to Revan, not just because the story doesn't involve defeating the Sith as much as it does around the character you play. This is the kind of discussion that cannot go anywhere but one way, buddy. So let's end it here, but one final thing.. 

 

This is your mistake: we are not talking about "complex" character sheets here. Personally, I never do complex character sheets; I have a basic personality in my head and then roll with the dialogue options. But having a vague character concept is totally different from having a very set background that's a key part of the plot, that you just happen to not know until the story decides to go "btw, guess which lead character committed mass-murder using a jury-rigged WMD?" 

 

Take TW1-2 as an example. Geralt has amnesia. Whatever you did or didn't do, whatever your reasons for doing it - you're free to accept them or not, or be that person or not, because everything about you was wiped away. You have a pre-determined baseline, sure, because Geralt has a similar personality even without the experience, but you don't have those formative experiences anymore. 

 

The Exile does. 

[fchopin]

I cannot take the list seriously as it does not have any JRPG’s.

[TheChris92]

I'd take Marie-Sue gladly over Chie. Though I will fight you to the death over Kanji. He's MINE.

You want a character with no personality, no bearance on the plot, who's quite litterally so unimportant that you can ignore her and it would change bugger all over an awesome, adorable, kung-fu loving, character with lots of personality complexity? You got yourself a deal. You can't have Kanji btw. He's too awesome for a Marie-lover like you, buddah! You can have little mr. Hot-pants Ken Amada.

[Ryzaki]

You want a character with no personality, no bearance on the plot, who's quite litterally so unimportant that you can ignore her and it would change bugger all over an awesome, adorable, kung-fu loving, character with lots of personality complexity? You got yourself a deal. You can't have Kanji btw. He's too awesome for a Marie-lover like you, buddah! You can have little mr. Hot-pants Ken Amada.

 

Considering I found Chie immensely annoying? I'd take a rock over her. Let alone someone as tsun as Marie I'll take a shallow puddle I can enjoy over a deep pit I only find annoyance in.

 

*takes out blade* I told you fight to the death. Also hot pants apparently his hot for femPC XD So wrong. So very very wrong.

[Il Divo]

The heck are you talking about? None of the choices come as surprise, most of it is flat out delivered to you at the start of the game -- the background story for the Mandalorians are ultimately irrelevant for deciding what kind of character she is, like Geralt & Revan she has a backstory, but like them too it is only delivered to the player vaguely as the story progresses, so they use their infinite power of imagination to build from there. Sure, the game wants your input on it

 
 This is a  bad comparison, again. Geralt and Revan have amnesia. Every decision I make can be done without knowledge of their previous history. Every tidbit about their past, the player learns along with the character.
 
 The issue is that none of those decisions for that character would change based on their backstory, because the character isn't aware of their history.

 

 

You're arguing this point as if this wasn't the case with The Exile. There's plenty of opportunity for the player to establish what sort of Jedi she is in conversation, I'd argue more, but I've done that already. Why Revan needs to get a free-pass is beyond me.

 
 Uhh, because Revan had the mind wipe? Meaning that his history isn't relevant to how you role-play the character. The concept you create is fundamentally different from who that character was.
 
 Try this on: you currently have a personality, right? Things you like dislike, etc. If you had a memory wipe, you would never even know it and it wouldn't have any relevance to your decision-making because you aren't aware of the circumstances of your past history. The Exile doesn't follow this.

 

Now you're arguing as if the choice derived from you -- The player can choose to be ignorant about anything with the Council and when the game actually reaches the part of Telos with the holorecording, you can just flat-out say that you agree with their decision and don't hold any grudges.

 

The problem isn't the ability to express yourself. I've already said that KotOR 2 was a bit better on this than your predecessor. The problem is that every decision the player makes is done with a certain pretense regarding who they are and what they have done. If I'd known my own character's history regarding the Mass Shadow Generator, I would likely have been much more receptive of the Council's "punishment", rather than being a belligerent *******.

 

That's the key difference and why your Revan/Geralt comparisons continuously fail. Neither character is aware of their history to even use it as a relevant experience.

 

 

Right, and that's your critical preference to how you role-play I'm happy for you. People don't necessarily need a complex character sheet to work from, some can role-play a complete blank character should they so choose. Do I want that? Not really, I got my preferences and I don't always need everything told to me for me to role-play a role. It falls into the whole argument of do you prefer to have a voiced or non voiced, do you prefer your character to have a backstory etc. If you ask me though -- I'd say the game provides enough if not more connection to Revan, not just because the story doesn't involve defeating the Sith as much as it does around the character you play. This is the kind of discussion that cannot go anywhere but one way, buddy. So let's end it here, but one final thing..

 

If you consider a "complex character sheet" to be wanting to know before-hand that my character is a mass murder, then yeah, I'd say you're stretching quite a bit. That's quite different from being upset because I didn't know that my character loved chocolate ice cream.

 

What you're describing isn't role-playing. Role-playing requires a player to know the pertinent details of his history to make an informed decision about a situation. What you're describing? That sense of suspense of not knowing? That's the exact opposite of role-playing. It's what happens in stories the viewer is being told.

 

 
 

[TheChris92]

Considering I found Chie immensely annoying? I'd take a rock over her. Let alone someone as tsun as Marie I'll take a shallow puddle I can enjoy over a deep pit I only find annoyance in.

You do that then
 

*takes out blade* I told you fight to the death. Also hot pants apparently his hot for femPC XD So wrong. So very very wrong.

Fight me irl, Ryzaki.

[Ryzaki]

You do that then
 
Fight me irl, Ryzaki.

 

Indeed.

 

Over Kanji? Hellz yeah I would. *rolls sleeves*

 

Kanji is one of my fav Jrpg characters.

[TheChris92]

Who's Marie anyway? Some character exclusive to the Vita version, I assume?

Anyway, the only P4 party member I disliked was HumanMode Teddie; there was just something unnerving about him.

Yeah, she's in Golden. Alsom lol, I think his human form is actually quite funny because of how utterly androgynous it is. I've said before -- But there's literally not 1 character I do not like in Persona 4's cast as opposed to the third game.

[TheChris92]

Well... it was restricted to PC games. When's the last time a JRPG was on PC?

Pretty much. PC gaming isn't exactly a big thing in the east, with the exception of Korea I suppose.

[bussinrounds]

D&D is terrible then. I have never played a game who's combat system I hated more. Seriously.

 

And at least KOTOR didn't have instant death bullshit. And time stop. Just...*throws hands up*

Oh no, I actually died in a game.  The horror !!     

 

KotoR had pisss EASY combat, with MUCH fewer options, that required ZERO thought.   KotoR's combat even made DAO's look good by comparison.

 

ZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

 

And Codex had a JRPG list from last year, btw.

[In Exile]

Oh no, I actually died in a game.  The horror !!   

 

D&Ds complete crap mechanics have nothing to do with the frequency of death and everything to do with the inane cheapness of it. 

[spirosz]

Oh no, I actually died in a game.  The horror !!     

 

KotoR had pisss EASY combat, with MUCH fewer options, that required ZERO thought.   KotoR's combat even made DAO's look good by comparison.

 

ZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

 

And Codex had a JRPG list from last year, btw.

 

Looks like this one played on the easy. 

[Dominus]

Oh no, I actually died in a game. The horror !!

Oh you. My personal disinterest in D&D is it deviates too far from reality and relies too much on invisible rolls-of-the-die to succeed. It's more of a personal preference thing than anything else, though. I remember one time in Fallout 2, I'd had a shotgun pointed at a dog with a 95% chance of hitting him. It was point blank. It also missed. Did the dog what, do a barrel roll at the last minute? o.O I have a high respect for the role-playing aspect of many on that list(PS:T, Fallout, etc), but I'll never have an interest in that sort of game.

The only insta-death that infuriated me from D&D would be a baldur's gate mission. I believe it involved a theatrical play and a dimensional portal opening up. Long story short, the enemies cast a bubble of invincibility and killed my characters on the spot. Had it not been a side quest, my adventure may have ended there.

And Codex had a JRPG list from last year, btw.

Might've been this one?

[Mr.House]

Yeah, she's in Golden. Alsom lol, I think his human form is actually quite funny because of how utterly androgynous it is. I've said before -- But there's literally not 1 character I do not like in Persona 4's cast as opposed to the third game.

We all know you love Ken

[TheChris92]

We all know you love Ken

Yes, indeed, I talk about him all the time evidently. And every post that mentions him is always filled with absolute praise.

[Milan92]

What's with all this "Moar grey in Star Wars" crap? We never asked for any of that! When did we sign that treaty?

 

In all seriousness, I would like more grey in future SW games. I think Obsidian set a pretty good standard with Kotor 2.  You can't really get away these days anymore with a black & white story. 

 

However, I don't need any of that philosophical crap. It works with Metal Gear, but it really doesn't fit with SW imo.

[Cainhurst Crow]

What's with all this "Moar grey in Star Wars" crap? We never asked for any of that! When did we sign that treaty?

In all seriousness, I would like more grey in future SW games. I think Obsidian set a pretty good standard with Kotor 2. You can't really get away these days anymore with a black & white story.

However, I don't need any of that philosophical crap. It works with Metal Gear, but it really doesn't fit with SW imo.

Someone once put it well in stating putting moral greyness in the force is like putting magic in star treks warp drive. It just doesn't belong.