268 réponses à ce sujet

[TheChris92]

Nocturne is on that list but no Digital Devil Saga? For shame, I'd argue that I find DDS much more interesting than Nocturne. I'm also disappointed in the lack of Tales games and instead I'm seeing tons of Final Fantasy titles, ew. Otherwise there are quite a few stellar titles on it.

[Dominus]

I'm also disappointed in the lack of Tales games and instead I'm seeing tons of Final Fantasy titles, ew.

The only tales games I'd played were Phantasia and Vesperia. Not sure I'd put either in my top 10, though they were definitely satisfying. As far as FF, most of them are respectable.... FFV, though? o.O Combat definitely, The rest not so much.

[TheChris92]

The only tales games I'd played were Phantasia and Vesperia. Not sure I'd put either in my top 10, though they were definitely satisfying. As far as FF, most of them are respectable.... FFV, though? o.O Combat definitely, The rest not so much.

I'd say Vesperia & Symphonia were more fun than the likes of FFVII & VIII, and I don't quite get what Symphony of the Night is doing there. Is this a list for Japanese games in general? If so, then what is Shadowrun doing there? Anyway, I'd place priority over on them, even if Vesperia's story wasn't original, its cast was excellent and more fun than any Final Fantasy I've played.

[TheChris92]

#BRAPSFIRED I'm not one to get into what might be semantics but supposedly the word "anime" in the Japanese language existed before the categorization of the specific type of animation that separated Japanese and other forms of animation. TL;DR, Anime is supposedly just short form for animation, which would technically make ATLA an anime. Regardless of whether that's actually true or not I stick with the tried and true method of categorizing Japanese animation as anime and Western animation as cartoons.

I think it's better to put it like this -- Anime is a term that was made up by fans of Japanese animation to easier identify a certain stylistic choice of cartoon-making. There are fans of anime who litterally says things like "It's not cartoon! It's anime"... Well, it's still a cartoon no matter how you wanna phrase it. The characters on screen were all drawn and designed by artists like how they would be in the west. I've went into it several times before what makes western animation distinct from Japanese animaiton, it's the approach to music implementation like more natural sound effects in Japanimation while western would wholly on spectacle to draw out the mood, slap-stick humor based on the personality of the characters is also common for western animation, whereas 'anime' relies more on telling realistic stories, juxtaposed with otherwise absurd or fantastical settings, through the use of a social & future realism narrative. But I've said that before

The point is that I'd say Avatar is a nice mixture of both -- There's still plenty of that whacky slap-stick found in most modern western cartoons, and then there is the dramatic that exists to balance out the zany. It's no secret that Full Metal is one of many inspirations for Avatar's style, looking at characters like Asami whose designs looks like it was heavily based on Lust.

[bussinrounds]

 Cover-Based Shooting?

  Yea, the cover based shooting in ME had so much in common with of the best tactical games (with RPG elements) EVER …..

 

  not popamole bs like Gears of War…ok

[TheChris92]

I'd just have said it's the art style. Avatar is a western cartoon with a lot of Asian (mainly Chinese, I think, in terms of the martial arts at least) themes and an anime-esque art style. Now, different anime can have vastly different art styles, but they all seem to have something commonly distinct from most western animation, though it's a little hard to place. Mainly in the faces I think. It's just something you intuitively recognize.

I wrote something about it in a different thread -- There's actually a marginal difference between the two of them. I wrote a bit more about it in a different thread which I can't recall what was called now. Can probably find it by going back a few pages, then I'll post it here.

[Deflagratio]

"Fallout 3" and "storytelling" do not go together. Ever. Also, Alpha Protocol at least has a little something called dialogue.

 

 

See, that's where you're wrong. Your definition of storytelling is in the brute-force "LISTEN TO MY MONOLOGUE" style, I prefer the subtle approach of exploration driven contextual storytelling.

 

How adorable.

 

Again, you people and your inside-the-box thinking. I don't need a story yelled at me through dialog. I can enter a room and see the details of a narrative spelled out in the environment. But I guess I'm just classy like that.

 

All that said, I am not defending Bethesda's lolwriting in terms of character delivered narrative. Something Alpha Protocol does very well, but to say Fallout 3 hasn't a good story behind it is to have a depressingly narrow view of how one can tell stories.

[Abraham_uk]

I haven't played any of the Tales games.

 

Is the Tales Series a bit like Ni No Kuni?

 

I.e. run around a small battlefield with a handful of awesome abilities, Studio Ghibli visuals, developed characters, flesh out out world, heart sweeping music and a heartfelt story?

If so then I'm sold.

 

 

Spoiler

 

Ni No Kuni didn't leave itself open to any sequels.

Which is a pity. On the bright side they did conclude the story completely without any loose ends.

 

[Mr.House]

See, that's where you're wrong. Your definition of storytelling is in the brute-force "LISTEN TO MY MONOLOGUE" style, I prefer the subtle approach of exploration driven contextual storytelling.

 

 

Again, you people and your inside-the-box thinking. I don't need a story yelled at me through dialog. I can enter a room and see the details of a narrative spelled out in the environment. But I guess I'm just classy like that.

 

All that said, I am not defending Bethesda's lolwriting in terms of character delivered narrative. Something Alpha Protocol does very well, but to say Fallout 3 hasn't a good story behind it is to have a depressingly narrow view of how one can tell stories.

The story of FO3 was a poorly written carbon copy of FO1 and 2 along with this forced daddy issue that was laughably done bad.

[In Exile]

See, that's where you're wrong. Your definition of storytelling is in the brute-force "LISTEN TO MY MONOLOGUE" style, I prefer the subtle approach of exploration driven contextual storytelling.

 

Again, you people and your inside-the-box thinking. I don't need a story yelled at me through dialog. I can enter a room and see the details of a narrative spelled out in the environment. But I guess I'm just classy like that.

 

Archeology is not story-telling. Neither is reading a list of journal entries about a place (when I say journal entries, I mean literally first person 

entries in a journal about a place). That's an essential part of creating rich lore and a living setting, and Bioware fails miserably and comically at doing this in pretty much every game they've ever released. 

 

But just look at every other storytelling medium. Characters interacting with one another is a fundamental part of telling a story. 

[Deflagratio]

Archeology is not story-telling. Neither is reading a list of journal entries about a place (when I say journal entries, I mean literally first person 

entries in a journal about a place). That's an essential part of creating rich lore and a living setting, and Bioware Bethesda you mean right?  fails miserably and comically at doing this in pretty much every game they've ever released. 

 

But just look at every other storytelling medium. Characters interacting with one another is a fundamental part of telling a story. 

 

 

Your narrow ideas of what storytelling and characters can be is tragic, but it's a problem you'll have to sort out yourself, for I am not confined to your box. The most I can say is The Player Character interacting with the Wolrd itself is a type of character interaction. I've often talked about how Bethesda's games are best when there's no other characters around, because they're masters of World-Building.

 

The story of FO3 was a poorly written carbon copy of FO1 and 2 along with this forced daddy issue that was laughably done bad.

 

"Poorly Written" is like BSN's catch-all for "I didn't like this" isn't it? Unless you want to elaborate on what makes it poorly written you'd do well to be a little less pretentious.

 

Anyway, none of this serves the point I was trying to make. When a trash-heap like Alpha Protocol makes the list by doing one thing really well, I was hoping for the same courtesy to a game vilified because it had the audacity to exist.

 

I'm also a bigger fan of the Americana "World of Tomorrow" Setting for the Capital wasteland, as opposed to the Old Western thematic setting of New Vegas and Fallout 1-2. The "World of Tomorrow" Themes are subverted by the reality of the Wasteland in a profound way that layers irony into the trademark pitch-black humor every step you take in the world. And that just really resonated with me.

[In Exile]

Your narrow ideas of what storytelling and characters can be is tragic, but it's a problem you'll have to sort out yourself, for I am not confined to your box. The most I can say is The Player Character interacting with the Wolrd itself is a type of character interaction. I've often talked about how Bethesda's games are best when there's no other characters around, because they're masters of World-Building.

 

I'm not sure why you think saying "I'm rubber and you're glue" is an actual argument, but whatever floats your boat. I don't disagree that the player interacting with the world is part of character interaction. "Interacting with the world", however, is not rummaging through garbage and reading little susie's 600 year old diary, which is all that Bestheda does in their games. Contrast that with New Vegas to see how archeology actually enriches a plot. 

 

At any rate, if you think that you've settled the argument by defining storytelling by divine fiat, there's no point to having a discussion. Great story-telling is whatever you say it is, because you're "not confined" to my box. 

[Deflagratio]

I'm not sure why you think saying "I'm rubber and you're glue" is an actual argument, but whatever floats your boat. I don't disagree that the player interacting with the world is part of character interaction. "Interacting with the world", however, is not rummaging through garbage and reading little susie's 600 year old diary, which is all that Bestheda does in their games. Contrast that with New Vegas to see how archeology actually enriches a plot. 

 

At any rate, if you think that you've settled the argument by defining storytelling by divine fiat, there's no point to having a discussion. Great story-telling is whatever you say it is, because you're "not confined" to my box. 

 

Well, now I have to simply revise my argument to say that you're just too biased against Bethesda, or too big an Obsidian/Avellone Loyalist. I can falsify your claims about Fallout 3 within the first 8 minutes of the game. And no, I'm not a fan of the Heavy-Handed Journal crap they do. It's terrible in Fallout 3, and it's terrible in Skyrim, but that's not their exclusive device to delivering narrative through the environment. (Those aren't even environmental technically, it's just dialog that's read).

[In Exile]

Well, now I have to simply revise my argument to say that you're just too biased against Bethesda, or too big an Obsidian/Avellone Loyalist. I can falsify your claims about Fallout 3 within the first 8 minutes of the game. And no, I'm not a fan of the Heavy-Handed Journal crap they do. It's terrible in Fallout 3, and it's terrible in Skyrim, but that's not their exclusive device to delivering narrative through the environment. (Those aren't even environmental technically, it's just dialog that's read).

 

It's really funny that you say that, because earlier in this thread I was discussing their failures in KoTOR 2. As for falsifying my claims for FO3, by all means, go for it: show me up. 

 

But let's have a real discussion. What does Skyrim, for example, do that's delivering narrative through the environment? I'm not denying that they might do this; but I certainly didn't feel they did a good job, and I'm interested in why you think that they did do a good job. 

 

To give you an example, I think FN:NV does a good job telling the story via the environment with the way the map is laid out: settlements clustered in parts, lots of isolated wasteland in other parts. Also, in the way that certain resources are managed and how you feel that through, say, Hardcore mode (particularly with water). 

[Deflagratio]

It's really funny that you say that, because earlier in this thread I was discussing their failures in KoTOR 2. As for falsifying my claims for FO3, by all means, go for it: show me up. 

 

But let's have a real discussion. What does Skyrim, for example, do that's delivering narrative through the environment? I'm not denying that they might do this; but I certainly didn't feel they did a good job, and I'm interested in why you think that they did do a good job. 

 

To give you an example, I think FN:NV does a good job telling the story via the environment with the way the map is laid out: settlements clustered in parts, lots of isolated wasteland in other parts. Also, in the way that certain resources are managed and how you feel that through, say, Hardcore mode (particularly with water). 

 

Well, then it's just a Bethesda Bias I guess, I never said Skyrim did a good job with environmental storytelling, did I? If I did I'm wrong. It does do some things really well, but nothing relevant to the discussion we're having. I can however cite Morrowind, but I don't think that was ever up for debate right? Ever since Bethesda started moving more towards Procedural generation, they've taken huge strides back in environmental storytelling.

 

As for falsifying your claim(s), I would, but I'm afraid you'll just laugh off any point I make or dismiss it as "Isolated", FOXNEWS style. I'd rather not waste my time because frankly, I don't have to prove anything to you about my opinion. When I said "Falsify" it wasn't an issued challenge anyway, just that my experience was dramatically different.

 

As for New Vegas, I don't think I ever tried to say that Fallout 3 was better... I like Fallout 3 better, but that's just because the setting resonates with me more. New Vegas does a lot of things much better than Fallout 3. I know it's weird that I can divorce my opinion from quantifiable fact like that, it makes me really good at Devil's Advocate-ing.

 

I feel the need to restate my thesis just in case it's getting lost. Fallout 3 and Alpha Protocol are equal parts beautiful and broken. Fallout 3 Metas better because people love their emergent experiences.

[Wires_From_The_Wall]

 

 

But let's have a real discussion. What does Skyrim, for example, do that's delivering narrative through the environment? I'm not denying that they might do this; but I certainly didn't feel they did a good job, and I'm interested in why you think that they did do a good job. 

 

 

 

Short answer? Pretty much everything you can consieveably ask for in a modern AAA level 1st person RPG.

Bit longer answer:

 

I accidentally ate raw meat in house of the people I killed. Initially I thought nothing of it and continued my way to Winterhold. Slept in the inn along the way. Noticed my disease had turned in three diseases as I slept. Figured I want to find cure pot or a shrine. I pack my tent, refill my water bottles, buy some bread. It is pretty late night but I decide to leave now rather than risk sleep and worsening diseases. Plan is to go from Winterhold to Dawnstar. Since I chose not to ruin my game, fast travel is disabled ofc.

 

Huge blizzard that eventually goes on to last three days breaks out. Feverish odysseya  through snow, ice,cold  and dark follows. Due to blizzard and disease I'm constantly tired and thirsty. During first few days, normal running speed turns into slow running turns into a crawl. Nights turn leathal cold. Soon as I'm done unpacking my tent in morning I'm so tired I wish I hadn't unpacked it. Each of my diseases grows worse. Vague memory of killing wolves with fists.Maybe it was a dream:o  Each time I gather firewood I fear I collapse before I have enough to make a campfire. Each time I wake up I'm already tired. Fever! Distance I can walk grows smaller every day.  It takes unreasonable amounts of water to keep dehyndration away. I realize I'm just about out of water. Without water I'll grow too weak to move and die in my tent in day or two-  I just know next morning will be my last.  About to call it a night and a life when dark silhouettes of..something in blizzard  gradually turns into an  Imperial camp.  I crawl to their horses, climb on one and survive.

Few weeks of game time later, I end up walking  the same trail on - good - weather and see like 2000 Talos shrines that could have cured me. Blizzard and dark just kept me from seeing them. fu Talos:l

 

Happened to my lvl 3 necromancer about week back. If this experience didn't deliver narrative via environment I don't know what does.

 

If I wouldn't have disabled fast travel the story would have been

*Open map

*Click some goddamn shrine or city  anywhere

The end

 

 

Above experience available in moderately modded Skyrim. Half a dozen of well chosen mods is enough to turn Skyrim to a sandbox where it isn't Jennifer Hale but player, game world and game mechanics that do the storytelling.

 

 

Regarding list on OP as a whole; it gets my aprox. seal of approval. Ultima VII is surprisingly low.

[Deflagratio]

Short answer? Pretty much everything you can consieveably ask for in a modern AAA level 1st person RPG.

Bit longer answer:

<Snippy snip>

 

 

I wouldn't call that environmental storytelling, that's more along the lines of emergent gameplay, something Skyrim does extremely well, with more persistent reactivity than competing emergent games like Assassin's Creed or Grand Theft Auto. Environmental storytelling is more like crafted narrative told exclusively through the environment. The towns of Morrowind are great examples of this, with things like clashing architecture styles between the Native Dunmer and Imperial colonist, the equipment/clothes NPC's wear reflecting their station or culture, the contents of one's home telling of the NPC's socioeconomic status or profession.

 

Or a better Morrowind example I love, is Smuggler caves, which actually uses procedural generation, but very smart procedural content. Loading things like Dwarven Weapons and Alcohol into smuggler's crates, which are contraband. (As opposed to Generic Iron Longsword of Flame like Skyrim would do in its sledgehammer approach)

[TheChris92]

A marginal difference in terms of what, the art style? I dunno, I think it's a little more than marginal just on the face of it. If you mean thematically between Avatar as a "western cartoon" and anime (in terms of use of humor, etc), I dunno, haven't watched it personally. I haven't considered much what non-visual differences there might be between anime and western animation, except that western animation tends to be more squarely aimed at kids. The ones that manage to reach beyond that audience tend to get really long threads here in the off-topic section devoted to them. 

No, sorry, don't know why I wrote 'marginal' when I was actually arguing the opposite -- I meant there is a large difference between in terms of everything. Be it music, be it humor, be it characters, be it dramatic themes, be it narrative -- Most importantly there are the cultural differences too that usually are lost on your average comformative European. The closest thing an anime could come to a western animation would be anything made by Hayao Miyazaki, because his approach to storytelling is done in a fashion that slightly resembles that of a classical Disney or Pixar. I wrote a bit about it in that thread I linked, but it was a repeat of the same stuff I said in a different one, which I can't recall what was called. If you really wanna know what I mean I'll track it down later and link it again instead of derailing this thread any longer. Although I think I we do actually agree on this since I typed wrongly, lol

[Mr.House]

Your narrow ideas of what storytelling and characters can be is tragic, but it's a problem you'll have to sort out yourself, for I am not confined to your box. The most I can say is The Player Character interacting with the Wolrd itself is a type of character interaction. I've often talked about how Bethesda's games are best when there's no other characters around, because they're masters of World-Building.

 

 

"Poorly Written" is like BSN's catch-all for "I didn't like this" isn't it? Unless you want to elaborate on what makes it poorly written you'd do well to be a little less pretentious.

 

Anyway, none of this serves the point I was trying to make. When a trash-heap like Alpha Protocol makes the list by doing one thing really well, I was hoping for the same courtesy to a game vilified because it had the audacity to exist.

 

I'm also a bigger fan of the Americana "World of Tomorrow" Setting for the Capital wasteland, as opposed to the Old Western thematic setting of New Vegas and Fallout 1-2. The "World of Tomorrow" Themes are subverted by the reality of the Wasteland in a profound way that layers irony into the trademark pitch-black humor every step you take in the world. And that just really resonated with me.

Because FO3 has nothing going for it. Anything FO3 has, NV did better, thus NV is on the list. You can get away with meh gameplay if the writing is very well done(AP) but when both aspects suck(FO3) then you have a problem.

[SlottsMachine]

I enjoyed exploring Fallout 3 as much as the next person, but the plot was bad. LOL. I don't see how someone could say otherwise. 

[bussinrounds]

Your narrow ideas of what storytelling and characters can be is tragic, but it's a problem you'll have to sort out yourself, for I am not confined to your box. The most I can say is The Player Character interacting with the Wolrd itself is a type of character interaction. I've often talked about how Bethesda's games are best when there's no other characters around, because they're masters of World-Building.

 

 

I agree that you don't need a bunch of characters/dialog trees to tell a good story, but to cite Fallout 3 as an example is not a good one at all. LOL

 

For a good example of what you're talking about…System Shock 2 does this great (audio logs, ect..)