161 réponses à ce sujet

[The Ascendant]

This is as the title says. Many go on about their views on magic, or other religions but I want to know is the Chantry actually a racist theocracy determined to maintain human dominance on Thedas? Let be specify I am not going into their treatment of mages, that is an issue for another day. They claim that all creatures are the work of their Maker, yet the average Andrastian's treatment of the other races paints a very diffrerent picture.

I have played both games and read the books, I have found that their is very few instances of non human involvement in the Chantry. There is the instance of the Dwarf preacher in Orzammar but that is the only instance I can find any involvement of other races being invovled in the Chantry. The most common place to find elves in a Chantry organisation is the Circle of Magi and while they are educated and treated like other Magi, remember they are not there by choice. It is stated in the wiki that there are elven templars, but they are rare due to racial discrimination.

Another instance is the Qunari. While they are opposed to the philosophy, I think the Chantry is encouraging a racial hatred against them as well. Is it simply because they completely and utterly oppose the Qun, or is it that they don't want to be treated equally as Elves, Dwarves and Qunari under the Qun. Remember the Qunari don't care about race and all are treated equally under the Qun. Could it be that the Chantry is simply horrified about the idea that humans are the same as the other races?

I am not flat out saying that everyone in the Chantry is racist, that would be extremely intolerant and offensive, many in Andrastians are kind decent people, but their ideology does bring up some somewhat disturbing thoughts.

Your comments and thoughts are appreciated. I apologize to anyone who has started a similar topic.

[KainD]

Yes, Chantry is racist, sexist and bigoted.  

[Rusty Sandusky]

Here we go again....

[Major Crackhead]

Like the real life Catholic Church, yes and no.

But just like real life as well, we have middle ground idiots like Leliana who aren't racist but still act stupid.

[Wulfram]

I think they're simply no more immune to the racism that permeates society than anyone else, rather than there being any concerted policy going on.  And the Qun offers plenty of reasons to oppose them that have nothing to do with race. 

 

Though there was a clear anti-elf backlash following the war with the Dales, as is referenced in The Masked Empire

[TheKomandorShepard]

 

ideologically they aren't however as every human organization is bulit on own members and as far we know most humans in the setting is racist so no wonder that chantry is dominated by such peoples and that makes very hard for other races to join them as well any other orgaization.  

[Nightdragon8]

I think its less racist and more, Theology-ist? pretty much if you don't believe the way they do then they don't like you, I think the DA:O HN orgin was a good example, they tolerate athiesum, but they frown on it. As for the way the Dalish believe there hasn't been any real official word said in the games one way or another. I don't think. But Anders and Seb, where more intrested in what the Dalish though more than judging it either way. Granted Anders had his own, Spirts are good, demons are bad. While it seems the Dalish (at least her clan) thought they where all dangerous, as they are all alien to people on Theidas.

 

Is it the government or the Chantry that is more anti elves?. I honestly believe its more government... they just end up using the chantry as a means to unite and gather countries under one banner to attack something.

[Nohvarr]

Here we go again....

...same old **** again!

 

Sorry heard some people singing that for cadence

[Dean_the_Young]

If you make a distinction between the Chantry, as an institution with doctrine, and Andrastians, people who share faith but have their own cultures, not really. You could get rid of the Chantry, and the racial issues would remain. Racial prejudices exist outside the Chantry and affect the societies that compose the Chantry, but the Chantry itself isn't creating or condoning these racial issues. Pretty much every time the Chantry institutions has come into conflict with 'a race', it has been as a response to secular political issues.

 

Doctrinally, the Chantry is open to every race. It will accept, identify with, and take sympathy with followers of any race. It does not bar other races from joining the faithful, and more importantly it does not prohibit them from joining its military (the Templars) or Clergy (the leadership class). While numbers and prominance are limited, this tends to be from social and outside influences rather than the Chantry itself. In some cases it's simply numeric: you won't see many dwarves or Qunari because there are so few outside their own cultures. In most institutionally racist societies, racial barriers are de facto. We have not seen any indication that the Chantry prohibits, say, elves from being Mothers at an institutional level.

 

When the Chantry has been involved in religious wars, it has always been a reflection of secular politis and concerns at play. The Dalish Exalted March was due to a secular war between elves and orlesians that saw the exalted march initiated when Orlais was doing poorly. Religion was in play in a racial war, but while Shartan got a historical retcon the Chantry did not proscribe racial guilt on the elves for the war. It also made efforts to integrate and protect the elves, requiring the kingdoms take in converted elven refugees. It was far from an ideal solution, but compared to what could have been?

 

The Qunari opposition almost certainly has far more to do with the Qunari suddenly invading in a long, brutal war than anything about racial equality (which the Qunari didn't even have the races to demonstrate at the time). Considering there is no character or source in the DA setting to even suggest such a motivation for the Chantry's opposition...

 

Well, it's pretty clear the OP wants the Chantry itself to be racist.

[Insaner Robot]

Wouldn't the correct term be speciesism or speciesist?

[Mistic]

If you make a distinction between the Chantry, as an institution with doctrine, and Andrastians, people who share faith but have their own cultures, not really. You could get rid of the Chantry, and the racial issues would remain. Racial prejudices exist outside the Chantry and affect the societies that compose the Chantry, but the Chantry itself isn't creating or condoning these racial issues.

 

Exactly. The same happens with the Qun, actually. I suppose not many people have seen Dragon Age: Redemption, but in the first episode we can see Tallis working as a humble Athlok. There are other Qunari there, humans, who try to make her angry by calling her knife-ears.

 

The Masked Empire also provides another insight at the Chantry's doctrine regarding elves: "The elves are the children of the Maker and just as deserving of His grace". However, that's the theory. As Celene points out, the Divine won't say that in public.

 

So is the Chantry racist? The insitution isn't. However, many people that are part of it and almost every Andrastian nation is.

[Dean_the_Young]

Exactly. The same happens with the Qun, actually. I suppose not many people have seen Dragon Age: Redemption, but in the first episode we can see Tallis working as a humble Athlok. There are other Qunari there, humans, who try to make her angry by calling her knife-ears.

 

The Masked Empire also provides another insight at the Chantry's doctrine regarding elves: "The elves are the children of the Maker and just as deserving of His grace". However, that's the theory. As Celene points out, the Divine won't say that in public.

 

So is the Chantry racist? The insitution isn't. However, many people that are part of it and almost every Andrastian nation is.

 

This is sparked a bit by another thread, but I'd be amused if we get could a more racially progressive Chantry in DAI via... Sister Petrice.

 

No, seriously, hear me out. She's a devout believer, already works with devout elves, and she's not afraid of putting faith ahead of a political confrontation. If anything, she relishes it. She's not even afraid of the idea of a schism.

 

Sure, she was stripped of her position by the Chantry leadership in DA2 if she survived, but by DAI that leadership is dead and the world is in flames and chaos. She has a proven ability to gather devout followers, even without a major position. She is an opportunist. How hard do you think it would be for her to try and gain influence from Andrastian city elves in the Orlais rebellion? How plausible would it be for her to make herself a player in the game, trading her influence over her devout supporters (including both humans and elves) for influence in the re-consolidation of the Chantry?

 

 

Which isn't to say the costs wouldn't be considerable, or even preferable. But hey- fun and non-racist.

[Mockingword]

Obviously yes.

 

I mean, their explicit goal is to snuff out other beliefs and cultures.

[Dean_the_Young]

Obviously yes.

 

I mean, their explicit goal is to snuff out other beliefs and cultures.

 

That's not racism. That's just cultural.

[Mockingword]

That's not racism. That's just cultural.

Meh.

 

Also, "just"?

[Dean_the_Young]

Meh.

 

You could call it ethnocentricism if you'd like. You could pretend the 'ethno' actually refers to ethnicity.

[Potato Cat]

The problem isn't in the race for the Chantry. It's the religion. They destroyed the Dales because it wasn't following the teachings of Andraste. They tried to destroy the Qunari for the same reason. Along the way, some have just interpretted it as being "elves are bad" rather than "the elven religion is bad". The fact they tried to erase Shartan's role in the story of Andraste probably didn't help things either.

[TheKomandorShepard]

The problem isn't in the race for the Chantry. It's the religion. They destroyed the Dales because it wasn't following the teachings of Andraste. They tried to destroy the Qunari for the same reason. Along the way, some have just interpretted it as being "elves are bad" rather than "the elven religion is bad". The fact they tried to erase Shartan's role in the story of Andraste probably didn't help things either.

In both cases it was self-defense as both elves and qunari attacked first when qunari wanted conquer entire thedas.

[Mockingword]

A person's religion and culture is a pretty big part of their identity. Saying that the Elven faith is bad is essentially saying that Elves are bad. According to the Chantry, to be "good" is to give up the things that are central to Elven culture and identity, and essentially become humans in everything but name.

 

But, haha, humans will never accept them, so elves lose either way.

[Mockingword]

In both cases it was self-defense as both elves and qunari attacked first when qunari wanted conquer entire thedas.

Do you believe everyone that claims self-defense?

[Mistic]

This is sparked a bit by another thread, but I'd be amused if we get could a more racially progressive Chantry in DAI via... Sister Petrice.

 

No, seriously, hear me out. She's a devout believer, already works with devout elves, and she's not afraid of putting faith ahead of a political confrontation. If anything, she relishes it. She's not even afraid of the idea of a schism.

 

Sure, she was stripped of her position by the Chantry leadership in DA2 if she survived, but by DAI that leadership is dead and the world is in flames and chaos. She has a proven ability to gather devout followers, even without a major position. She is an opportunist. How hard do you think it would be for her to try and gain influence from Andrastian city elves in the Orlais rebellion? How plausible would it be for her to make herself a player in the game, trading her influence over her devout supporters (including both humans and elves) for influence in the re-consolidation of the Chantry?

 

 

Which isn't to say the costs wouldn't be considerable, or even preferable. But hey- fun and non-racist.

 

I don't know if I'm horrified or intrigued by this prospect. Probably both. Forget Harrowmont versus Bhelen, discussions are going to be heated up if it happens that the only way to get proper elven rights and equality is to support Petrice as the next Divine.

 

A person's religion and culture is a pretty big part of their identity. Saying that the Elven faith is bad is essentially saying that Elves are bad. According to the Chantry, to be "good" is to give up the things that are central to Elven culture and identity, and essentially become humans in everything but name.

 

I disagree. Religion is a very important part, true enough, but it's not the only thing that decides when some group is a clearly defined people. I don't have to go about real life examples (Lithuania in the middle ages comes to mind), since the setting already provides one in Tevinter. Was Tevinter less Tevinter because they converted to Andrastianism?

[Mockingword]

I disagree. Religion is a very important part, true enough, but it's not the only thing that decides when some group is a clearly defined people. I don't have to go about real life examples (Lithuania in the middle ages comes to mind), since the setting already provides one in Tevinter. Was Tevinter less Tevinter because they converted to Andrastianism?

Tevinter's conversion is obviously not genuine, they demonstrate a wanton lack of appreciation for the things Andraste supposedly represented. Like freedom, just for starters.

 

But that's also not at all similar to what happened to the elves. Their conversion wasn't voluntary, their culture was summarily destroyed. The Andrastian elves living today have no connection with their own history, even if they want one, having been raised under the control of the Chantry. And the Dalish know very little.

[TheKomandorShepard]

Do you believe everyone that claims self-defense?

No but i belive in that what devs said it was cleary self-defense as elves attacked first and it is in WoT.About self-defense in qunari case i hope i don't need speak because they wanted conquer thedas.

[AresKeith]

Yes, Chantry is sexist

/facepalm