161 réponses à ce sujet

[AresKeith]

I don't automatically take the Chantry's word for it that the elves did any such thing. The elven version of events is equally valid.

 

And I don't really give a **** what happens to Orlais, regardless. By then it had already proven itself to be violent and expansionist.

 

Who said anything about taking the Chantry's word? And the fact that the Elven version is equally valid means that neither can claim self-defense since we don't know the truth behind it

 

You not caring about Orlais is relevant how?

[Aimi]

I don't automatically take the Chantry's word for it that the elves did any such thing. The elven version of events is equally valid.
 
And I don't really give a **** what happens to Orlais, regardless. By then it had already proven itself to be violent and expansionist.

The problem is that there really isn't an "elven" version of the outbreak of the war. All we have is Andrastian history: no corroboration, no contradiction.

With that in mind, all we can really do is judge whether the Andrastian version of the Exalted March is coherent and plausible on its own merits. And to be honest, it is. There are plenty of wars in Earth history that have been 'started' by one side and ended in the virtual destruction of that side all the same. You don't have to start a war to commit atrocities during it: look at what the Soviet Union did in Eastern Europe in 1944-45, for example.

Or, for a more period-appropriate example, the Occitan Wars (also called the Albigensian Crusades), a series of campaigns fought around the issue of the Catharist heresy, Occitan identity, and political power in the Pyrenean region, started when a papal legate was murdered by a servant of the Catharists' chief political protector, the count of Toulouse. Although the count effectively started the war, both sides engaged in atrocities aplenty, the most famous of which was the crusader sack of Béziers.

I think that it's entirely plausible that the Dalish may have launched the first offensive in the war. That does not require us to agree that the destruction of the Dalish polity was morally justified. Simply beginning with a knee-jerk "well that history is biased so it couldn't have happened that way!" response is not good history. Good history is doing what we can with what we have. If I get new information on the way the Dalish war went down, then I'm perfectly willing to revise what I believe in light of that new information. But until that happens, this is how it is.

[Mockingword]

The idea that the Elven faith is integral to being Elven is just a No True Scotsman fallacy. It might help the Dalish sleep better at night, but race doesn't equal culture.

Dalish culture may not be inherently elven (I don't know where you think I laimed that it is?), but the Chantry faith is inherently human, and it will continue to be for as long as it's overwhelmingly dominated by humans.

 

The Chantry faith also records the dominant narrative of Thedas' history, and it's a narrative where the existence and contributions of the elves are erased or marginalised. For an elf (or any non-human, for that matter), being Andrastian means forgetting your history and legends (or being raised in ignorance of them), and accepting the Chantry's implicit message that people who are like you never did anything valuable or noteworthy.

 

You can't have an "elvish culture" of any kind if you erase elves, and that's what the Chantry does. The Chantry doesn't support self-identification, it demands that you conform.

[Mockingword]

Who said anything about taking the Chantry's word? And the fact that the Elven version is equally valid means that neither can claim self-defense since we don't know the truth behind it

 

You not caring about Orlais is relevant how?

I was just letting you know that if you're trying to get me to change my mind out of sympathy for the Chantry, you're wasting your time.

[Dean_the_Young]

It's one thing to oppose elves who didn't want to convert, but the Chantry (I guess it was under Divine Renata back then) sought to wipe out Shartan from memory. This is someone who died right next to Andraste, and was her friend. This is pure racism. Not theology. They'll even contradict the founder of their own religion to get their way.

 

I'd put far more importance on the politics of the context than racism. Shartan wasn't removed without context: Shartan was removed after a long and bloody conflict in which the Dales nearly sacked the Chantry's heartland. I'd be willing to be a good deal that the arguments leading up to the removal had far less to do with 'Shartan, friend of Andraste who died beside her, is a dirty elf' and far more to do with 'Shartan, symbol of racial resistance and revolution, hero to elves and basis for compensation- is this really a symbol of resistance we wish to preserve and legitimize for the many thousands of recently subjugated and converted elves who are being spread across all the Andrastian lands of Thedas?'

 

 

One of the fascinating and terrifying things I learned when I briefly studied communist propoganda was the importance that was placed on controlling and influencing the heroes and villains of history. 1984's Ministry of Truth, which was dedicated to rewriting history to serve the party, was based on real Soviet practices of editing disgraced or rival figures from historical photographs. Writing Shartan out of the Chant strikes me as far closer to the Soviet efforts to deligitimize and marginalize Trotsky than it does, say, the American cultural history of ignoring infleuntial black figures and actors from various points of American history.

[AresKeith]

I was just letting you know that if you're trying to get me to change my mind out of sympathy for the Chantry, you're wasting your time.

 

Ok?

[Mockingword]

That's a worthy thought to consider, but what about when the elven version doesn't contradict the Chantry version? The Dalish never deny the events of Red Crossing or whever it was.

The Dalish version of events doesn't mention Red Crossing at all, and we've never been given the opportunity to bring it up.

 

Considering their interaction with Chantry scholars is limited, I doubt that many Dalish elves know the exact details of the Chantry's story.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

No the Chantry in and of itself isn't racist. An elf who believes in the Maker is still an elf. Human society in general pervasively racist and the Chantry is another aspect of that society.

 

Lol, when did the developers say any such thing?

 

World of Thedas is clearly intended to be read as an in-world encyclopedia, just like the codex in the games. So it's not reliable, and not intended to be reliable.

 

World of Thedas' main text is unbiased and objective. The out of universe description at the start of the book explains as much.

 

When it comes to the various accounts of the fall of the Dales, I actually don't think they are explicitly contradictory. The Dalish version is that the humans desired the elves to convert to their religion and when the Dales expelled their missionaries they sent in an invasion to convert them all by force. I don't think any Dalish source has ever mentioned the attack on Red Crossing. But just because they ignore or deemphasize certain parts of the story that the Chantry does emphasize doesn't mean either side is technically wrong. World of Thedas does say the Exalted March was called after the elves seized Montsimmard, but it does not say who started the Dales/Orlais border skirmishes they began the war in the first place. My theory is that the true causes may have been a bit of both of what either side claims.

[Mockingword]

No the Chantry in and of itself isn't racist. An elf who believes in the Maker is still an elf. Human society in general pervasively racist and the Chantry is another aspect of that society.

"Aspect" doesn't really quite cover it. The Chantry governs massive swathes of Thedas' sociopolitical landscape, and has extensive influence over the secular governing bodies in most countries of Thedas.

 

If you think that the negative attitude towards non-humans doesn't have significant roots in the Chantry's teachings, you are pretty much kidding yourself.

[Iakus]

No the Chantry in and of itself isn't racist. An elf who believes in the Maker is still an elf. Human society in general pervasively racist and the Chantry is another aspect of that society.

 

 

World of Thedas' main text is unbiased and objective. The out of universe description at the start of the book explains as much.

 

When it comes to the various accounts of the fall of the Dales, I actually don't think they are explicitly contradictory. The Dalish version is that the humans desired the elves to convert to their religion and when the Dales expelled their missionaries they sent in an invasion to convert them all by force. I don't think any Dalish source has ever mentioned the attack on Red Crossing. But just because they ignore or deemphasize certain parts of the story that the Chantry does emphasize doesn't mean either side is technically wrong. World of Thedas does say the Exalted March was called after the elves seized Montsimmard, but it does not say who started the Dales/Orlais border skirmishes they began the war in the first place. My theory is that the true causes may have been a bit of both of what either side claims.

 

Interesting detail:  Orlais is the only nation that sent troops on the Exalted March of the Dales.

 

In addition, relations between Orlais and the Dales had been strained at least since the Second Blight, when the Orlesians claimed the Elves were uncooperative, and essentially sat back while darkspawn overran human cities.

 

My suspcion is this whole anti-elf thing started out as an Orlesian/Dales thing, which ended up percolating through Thedas thanks to the Chantry being based in Val Royeux.

[Mockingword]

It didn't at first. It's a barbarian anti-slavery movement, started by a singing Warrior queen and some elves. They had good intentions.

Andraste didn't found the Chantry. Her personal connection to it is literally zero. There were a number of Andraste-worshipping cults around in the years following her death, and they didn't all preach the exact same things.

 

The one we know now as the Chantry is just the one that survived and became powerful by allying itself with the Orlesian empire.

[AresKeith]

My suspcion is this whole anti-elf thing started out as an Orlesian/Dales thing, which ended up percolating through Thedas thanks to the Chantry being based in Val Royeux.

 

Wouldn't be surprised if that's what actually happened

[Mockingword]

Noooo, stop quoting me, you're preserving my typos.

[Dean_the_Young]

They're going about it all the wrong way. If they ever wanted a relationship with elves, then keep shartan in the picture. That's just burning a bridge for no good reason.

 

I imagine the elite in charge of integrating a resentful, unstable population group into their kingdoms would consider a symbol of racial revolution a good bridge to burn. The Chantry can make common cause between human and elven slaves by the human and elven slaves of history: Shartan, the symbol, isn't necessary for that. Especially since Shartan is heavily tied into the legitimacy of the Dales, an elven homeland the Chantry has just finished sacking.

 

Considering that, nearly a millenia later, the Dalish elves are still calling the whole thing a betrayal by the Chantry and Andrastians, any fears that Shartan would be a symbol of grievance rather than integration would be grounded in foresight.

 

 

 

And what use is their religion if it's not based on the actual story? You might as well make up anything at this point.

 

 

What use is your national history they teach in school when they don't include all the counter-facts and viewpoints? Because culturally-understood historical narratives are based in the facts that support the narrative.

 

We could talk about Americans and the cult of the founding fathers, we could talk about the historic inevitability shindig of 20th century socialism/communism, we could talk about how the EU has been trying to make a post-nationalist narrative which places itself as the reason for peace and prosperity in Europe.

 

When you say 'the actual story', that's something that means different things to different people. Is the story of Andraste that of a Human-Elven uprising against an evil mage elite? A more broad, less racially-oriented slave uprising? Or is it a dissident mage and her barbarian allies reviving a cult of monotheism in a war against rival mage elites?

[Mockingword]

What use is your national history they teach in school when they don't include all the counter-facts and viewpoints?

Not much. 

[Dean_the_Young]

The Dalish version of events doesn't mention Red Crossing at all, and we've never been given the opportunity to bring it up.

 

The Dalish version of events doesn't deny the Red Crossing at all either, and we've never been given an opportunity to bring that up. Like most ancient history things, actually.

 

 

Considering their interaction with Chantry scholars is limited, I doubt that many Dalish elves know the exact details of the Chantry's story.

 

Considering their reliance on oral history and tradition, I doubt that many Dalish elves know the exact details of the Dalish version of events. Dalish legends and tales are routinely devoid of verifiables. Names, dates, places, people- if the Dalish even knew who the leader of the Humans was during that time, I'd be very impressed.

[Dean_the_Young]

Not much. 

 

Oh, I'd say it's very useful. Recognizing what a culture believes is important to remember, what it wants to believe itself to be can be insightful about the mindset, understanding, and viewpoints that are driving them. Sort of an outsider taking advantage of the idea of he who controls the past can control the future- only you can look at what people are trying to shape the past to be to understand desires for the future.

 

That it can often be based in facts gives historical context as a bonus. You just need to learn to look for what was left out or minimized.

[Dean_the_Young]

Noooo, stop quoting me, you're preserving my typtoes.

 

I'll take care to improve them.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Interesting detail:  Orlais is the only nation that sent troops on the Exalted March of the Dales.

 

In addition, relations between Orlais and the Dales had been strained at least since the Second Blight, when the Orlesians claimed the Elves were uncooperative, and essentially sat back while darkspawn overran human cities.

 

My suspcion is this whole anti-elf thing started out as an Orlesian/Dales thing, which ended up percolating through Thedas thanks to the Chantry being based in Val Royeux.

 

 Indeed. And given the connection between the Orlesian Empire and the Chantry, it's not really a contradiction if humans did desire the elves to convert to Andrastianism and the elves attacked Red Crossing.

 

"Aspect" doesn't really quite cover it. The Chantry governs massive swathes of Thedas' sociopolitical landscape, and has extensive influence over the secular governing bodies in most countries of Thedas.

 

If you don't think that anti-human attitudes don't have significant roots in the Chantry's teachings, you are pretty much kidding yourself.

 

It has influence yes, but Chantry nations are not a theocracy. Most of society is governed by their secular rulers. The laws that restrict elven freedom are secular laws. That's why Celene claimed she'd be able to overturn them in the Masked Empire and Briala said she could not because the other lords would not allow it.  And that racism has roots far older than the Chantry or Andraste. David Gaider even said once that although the Chantry says all other gods are not worthy of worship, the idea that the Creators don't exist at all is a holdover from The Tevinter Imperium.

[Mockingword]

Oh, I'd say it's very useful. Recognizing what a culture believes is important to remember, what it wants to believe itself to be can be insightful about the mindset, understanding, and viewpoints that are driving them. Sort of an outsider taking advantage of the idea of he who controls the past can control the future- only you can look at what people are trying to shape the past to be to understand desires for the future.

 

That it can often be based in facts gives historical context as a bonus. You just need to learn to look for what was left out or minimized.

Well, I was thinking about the use it has to me and students and other ordinary people, rather than those few individuals who are in a position to use it as a tool of control.

 

If I'm not being encouraged to think critically about history by being offered the counter-narratives, then I personally am being done a disservice.