161 réponses à ce sujet

[Dean_the_Young]

Think of it this way... my own Dalish Warden would have defiled the Ashes if she didn't meet the likeness of Shartan in that temple, and if she didn't learn about his part. He isn't just a symbol of rebellion (no more than Andraste is). He's a symbol of cooperation, and a symbol that Andraste cared enough about him to promise his people a home.

 

Okay, but your Warden is Dalish. A culture that, collectively, has a very tense lack-of relationship with the Council, and who regularly talk of the Dales as a betrayal and hypocritical failing of the Chantry and Humans. The knowledge of Shartan clearly hasn't done much to reconcile the races in the context of elves who still keep Shartan as a hero, even if it did for your Dalish Warden individually.

 

The Chantry's historical retcon isn't being created with the Dalish of many hundreds of years in the future in mind- it's being created with the newly Andrastian elves in mind.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Okay, but your Warden is Dalish. A culture that, collectively, has a very tense lack-of relationship with the Council, and who regularly talk of the Dales as a betrayal and hypocritical failing of the Chantry and Humans. The knowledge of Shartan clearly hasn't done much to reconcile the races in the context of elves who still keep Shartan as a hero, even if it did for your Dalish Warden individually.

 

The Chantry's historical retcon isn't being created with the Dalish of many hundreds of years in the future in mind- it's being created with the newly Andrastian elves in mind.

 

Well I think even Andraste herself is generally regarded positively in Dalish history. The closet negative thing I remember a Dalsih NPC saying about her is Velanna saying that she should hate her but doesn't.

[Dean_the_Young]

Well, I was thinking about the use it has to me and students and other ordinary people, rather than those few individuals who are in a position to use it as a tool of control.

 

If I'm not being encouraged to think critically about history by being offered the counter-narratives, then I personally am being done a disservice.

 

Have you considered the various counter-narratives to that?

[The Ascendant]

Alright there are few things more invigorating than a well constructed debate! 

If I could have peoples attention for a few minutes I would like to bring up the issue of the Qunari. Brother Genitivi, the Chantry Scholar, has traveled the world extensively detailing his encounters with different nations and peoples. In the codex entry detailing the Tal-Vasoth, he gets first hand information about the Qunari and the Tal-Vasoth, perhaps one of the few instances in where the Qunari peacefully interact between the Chantry and the Qunari. Why doesn't the Chantry educate the populace on the difference between the Qunari both the racially and religiously? After all the Seekers of Truth know that the Qunari are a religion not a race. After all the first step in defeating the enemy is knowing the enemy. The Chantry however simply does not or cannot teach people the difference. Is it because they want people the hate the race, the religion or both? All they seem to care about the Qun is that it is different to their own beliefs, in my opinion.

[Mockingword]

Have you considered the various counter-narratives to that?

... To my own opinion, you mean?

 

I guess so, years ago, back when I didn't really have an opinion.

[Mockingword]

Alright there are few things more invigorating than a well constructed debate! 

If I could have peoples attention for a few minutes I would like to bring up the issue of the Qunari. Brother Genitivi, the Chantry Scholar, has traveled the world extensively detailing his encounters with different nations and peoples. In the codex entry detailing the Tal-Vasoth, he gets first hand information about the Qunari and the Tal-Vasoth, perhaps one of the few instances in where the Qunari peacefully interact between the Chantry and the Qunari. Why doesn't the Chantry educate the populace on the difference between the Qunari bothe racially and religiously? After all the Seekers of Truth know that the Qunari are a religion not a race. After all the first step in defeating the enemy is knowing the enemy. The Chantry however simply does not or cannot teach people the difference. Is it because they want people the hate the race, the religion or both? All they seem to care about the Qun is that it is different to their own beliefs, in my opinion.

Well, the Tal-Vashoth we've seen so far are still not Andrastian.

 

I could easily believe that, as far as most of the Chantry is concerned, there's no difference.

[Dean_the_Young]

... To my own opinion, you mean?

 

I guess so, years ago, back when I didn't really have an opinion.

 

Did you think of any demerits to a society that focuses on tearing apart its own cultural narrative of history at the basic educational level? Or identify any merits in a society that doesn't, and instead leads it for people who care and are better able to?

[Dean_the_Young]

Alright there are few things more invigorating than a well constructed debate! 

If I could have peoples attention for a few minutes I would like to bring up the issue of the Qunari. Brother Genitivi, the Chantry Scholar, has traveled the world extensively detailing his encounters with different nations and peoples. In the codex entry detailing the Tal-Vasoth, he gets first hand information about the Qunari and the Tal-Vasoth, perhaps one of the few instances in where the Qunari peacefully interact between the Chantry and the Qunari. Why doesn't the Chantry educate the populace on the difference between the Qunari bothe racially and religiously? After all the Seekers of Truth know that the Qunari are a religion not a race. After all the first step in defeating the enemy is knowing the enemy. The Chantry however simply does not or cannot teach people the difference. Is it because they want people the hate the race, the religion or both? All they seem to care about the Qun is that it is different to their own beliefs, in my opinion.

 

Since when did they not care about the Qun in the context of its followers invading Thedas?

[Mockingword]

Did you think of any demerits to a society that focuses on tearing apart its own cultural narrative of history at the basic educational level? Or identify any merits in a society that doesn't, and instead leads it for people who care and are better able to?

Well, I don't see it as "tearing apart" anything, so much as acknowledging that white people history is not the only history.

 

But since the dominant cultural narrative of history is incredibly biased, to the point of occasionally being outright false, I don't think it would be a bad thing at all if it was "torn apart".

 

In the long run, knowing the truth will always be superior to being placated by a lie.

[Aimi]

In the long run, knowing the truth will always be superior to being placated by a lie.

Is there such a thing as objective truth, or is it all a social construct?

oooooOOOOOoooooOOOOOooooo

[Captain Coffee]

So, I love the Dragon Age games, and I am a pastor. I really want the whole text of the chant of light, so we can address what it does a n d doesn't say about elves, mages, etc. If we could get a textual criticism spin-off where you engage in scholarship and debate about the text of the chant in its historical context and it's application in modern Thedas, I would be all over that.

[Aimi]

So, I love the Dragon Age games, and I am a pastor. I really want the whole text of the chant of light, so we can address what it does a n d doesn't say about elves, images, etc. If we could get a textual criticism spin-off where you engage in scholarship and debate about the text of the chant in its historical context and it's application in modern Thedas, I would be all over that.

Dragon Age: Quellenkritik

You get bonus XP for using Rancière or Hayden White. "Slavoj Žižek" is a console command cheat.

[Mockingword]

Is there such a thing as objective truth, or is it all a social construct?

oooooOOOOOoooooOOOOOooooo

Either way, I still say the historical narratives of other cultures should be acknowledged and taught alongside the mainstream, if not fully integrated into it.

[Dean_the_Young]

Is there such a thing as objective truth, or is it all a social construct?

oooooOOOOOoooooOOOOOooooo

 

Darn, Eirene, you beat me to it!

[Dean_the_Young]

So, I love the Dragon Age games, and I am a pastor. I really want the whole text of the chant of light, so we can address what it does a n d doesn't say about elves, mages, etc. If we could get a textual criticism spin-off where you engage in scholarship and debate about the text of the chant in its historical context and it's application in modern Thedas, I would be all over that.

 

Someone should ask the writers if they've ever written out the entire Chant of Light.

 

I wouldn't be surprised if they didn't, so that they could always add more as they needed.

[Captain Coffee]

Someone should ask the writers if they've ever written out the entire Chant of Light.

 

I wouldn't be surprised if they didn't, so that they could always add more as they needed.

 

Yeah, I would imagine they haven't written it so they can add things if they need too, but having the full text would make it easier to be a mage, elf, etc. activist who is still loyal to the Chantry. I take some issues with the whole Andraste Bride of the Maker business, but I think they may be right about the golden city and the origin of the darkspawn.

[wcholcombe]

Andraste didn't found the Chantry. Her personal connection to it is literally zero. There were a number of Andraste-worshipping cults around in the years following her death, and they didn't all preach the exact same things.

 

The one we know now as the Chantry is just the one that survived and became powerful by allying itself with the Orlesian empire.

Actually, no the Chantry was founded in Tevinter about 200 years before Drakon basically coopted it in Orlais.  Seriously, the Chantry today is based off the chant of light and the teachings of the cult of the Maker founded by Hessarian.  The Imperial Chantry has since drifted from that original point to where Hessarian is now more important then Andraste and Magic is allowed, and men are priests instead of women, but originally Drakon basically copied the Tevinter Cult of the Maker into the Chantry.

 

Is the Chantry racists?  No.  They allow elves as clergy and templars both.  They have large numbers of CEs who are devout chantry followers-this is why I don't think the CEs in Orlais actually want independence, they see themselves as orlesian and what the rest of Orlais to treat them as such.  Heck the Chant of Light specifically requires that all races on Thedas adopt it for the Maker to return, you can't very well accomplish that if you aren't trying to spread it to other races.

 

Sexist-Not really.  It is a tradition based off the original Prophet Andraste being female that the reverend mothers and clerics and such are female.  They allow men to join the clergy, but in respect to Andraste they don't allow them in positions of leadership.  It is also somewhat in relation to Maferath and his betrayal, but it is more out of tradition then sexism.

 

Again with the fall of the Dales, irregardless of who started it, the chantry position was in the beginning seeking to spread their faith to all races-one of the tenents of their faith, they didn't care that they were elves or humans and later to self defense when the dalish were marching on Val Royeaux. Shartan is a common theme in history.  A cultural group or subset rises up against you, you remove their symbols from history.  You can cry and moan about it if you wish, but it was done because the elves rebelled, not because they were elves and the Chantry is racist.

[Mockingword]

Lol, it's not sexism if it's traditional. 

[Gregolian]

The old saying "do as I say, not as I do" comes to mind and seems very relevant right now.

 

This has the potential to create a major, well, storm of brown matter if I post it but look at real world religions.  Christianity, Judaism, Islam...  the big three all preach tolerance, loving your neighbor etc.  All three have had their moments of killing other "heathens"/non-believers because they believe it was their religious duty.

 

What I have gotten from the books honestly is yes the elves are in a bad spot in terms of the social hierarchy.  Problem is though that the city elves believe that them and the Dalish are "the same", many humans appear to have this same outlook on them.  Whereas the Dalish have a view that city elves are not real elves and that they, the Dalish, are the only true elves left.  They feel, internally at least I think, that what they do is for them alone however when they ****** off nobles and such, the nobles go "oh, look what the elves are doing" and make no distinction between city and Dalish elves and lash out at those that look similar.

[Iakus]

It isn't moaning. It's simply wanting a more accurate portrayal of the woman and her friends. Instead of randomness. Might as well as say she was half-goat, had three breasts, and danced naked in the streets of Minrathous with dwarf clowns.
 

 

That would certainly make the Chant of Light more interesting...

[dragondreamer]

TME suggested via Briala's thoughts of an idealized Orlais, that elves aren't allowed in the Chantry priesthood.  I wouldn't say Andrastianism itself is racist, but there's definitely issues in the modern Chantry as an institution.

[The Ascendant]

It isn't moaning. It's simply wanting a more accurate portrayal of the woman and her friends. Instead of randomness. Might as well as say she was half-goat, had three breasts, and danced naked in the streets of Minrathous with dwarf clowns.

This would satisfy a demand of the Qun.

[Aimi]

Either way, I still say the historical narratives of other cultures should be acknowledged and taught alongside the mainstream, if not fully integrated into it.

I agree, but the Dragon Age games don't exactly occur in a pedagogical setting.