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Will we be able to oppose the chantry?


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#26
ScotGaymer

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"That blind source of evil in Thedas"

 

How much you guys wanna bet that this erroneous opinion comes from the whole "I think the Chantry is the EXACT SAME THING as the Catholic Church" thing? And not from any real in game lore or evidence?

 

Honestly if you want to oppose the Chantry for role play purposes (cos this is an RPG duh) because your character dislikes the Chantry for whatever reason, then great go ahead and ask the question. Petition for the option. But calling the Chantry which is a relatively benign organisation on the whole and is NOT THE CATHOLIC CHURCH Evil is hyperbolic at best, and stupid at worst.

 

I find myself unsurprised. Disappointed but unsurprised.


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#27
Vilegrim

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"That blind source of evil in Thedas"

 

How much you guys wanna bet that this erroneous opinion comes from the whole "I think the Chantry is the EXACT SAME THING as the Catholic Church" thing? And not from any real in game lore or evidence?

 

Honestly if you want to oppose the Chantry for role play purposes (cos this is an RPG duh) because your character dislikes the Chantry for whatever reason, then great go ahead and ask the question. Petition for the option. But calling the Chantry which is a relatively benign organisation on the whole and is NOT THE CATHOLIC CHURCH Evil is hyperbolic at best, and stupid at worst.

 

I find myself unsurprised. Disappointed but unsurprised.

 

 

Except for it's  chasing the worshippers of other gods into the wilds, launching Exalted March after Exalted March against it's opponents, imprisoning mages (admittedly in guild cages but still), suppressing any other faith, forced conversion of the Elves, and in one case of DA:O post game, launching an exalted march against the Dwarves.



#28
wright1978

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I'm rather dubious as to whether we're going to be able to actively oppose. There'll probably be the odd chance to subvert their will and they are not going to force the player to convert and pay worship but fundamentally there does seem to be a tie between the inquisition and the chantry.

#29
Sheryl Chee

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MESSAGE POPULAIRE !

 The only solution is the eradication of the Andrastarian taint, using punishments so terrible no one will dare follow that sick creed again.

 

 

"Look! It's that anti-Andrastian fellow, torturing my children and putting my neighbors to the sword and forcing me to give up my faith! I'm terrified for my life, so he must be right!

 

Oh, well! Rationality and science for all!"

 

<_<


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#30
Maugrim

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Saw Sheryl's username on the new posts list and figured I have to check it out, she never disappoints.

 

And why is it ever topic that beings "Will we be able to xx" really "Will Bioware allow our PC's to act like total idiots?"

 

Especially since the answer is usually yes to a point.


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#31
ScotGaymer

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@Vilegrim - Did I deny that the Chantry has done any of that?

Did I say that the Chantry were just a poor misunderstood organisation?

 

No.

 

It's done some stupid and horrible **** in the past, and probably will continue to do stupid and horrible **** into the future as well. But guess what? It's filled with people who aren't perfect, who do stupid and sometimes horrible ****.

Keep in mind that EVERY SINGLE exalted march occurred because of reports of Andrastian adherents being persecuted and forcibly converted. Andrastrianism views other religions as theological challenges NOT as attacks, but the other religions - that of the Elves, or the Qun - view Andrastrianism as an attack not a challenge.

 

It doesn't excuse the Chantry the bad things they have done but when compared to some of the other organisations in the universe, or in real life, they are fairly benign.

 

If they were Evil like some claim then they would have happily backed the templars in simply annulling ALL the circles, but they didnt.

 

@Sheryl Chee.

 

Love it. lol.


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#32
Elena

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My self and my 2nd in command Sister Petrice will be leading the Chantry to bigger and better things.  As soon as we get rid of the heretical horned devils and all the mages.

 

Holy cow! No one's given you grief for that comment yet!Extraordinary! lol You are probably the first person I come across that is THAT Pro-Chantry! Unless of course, you were being sarcastic  :P.

 

Personally, I hated Sister/Mother Petrice. She was a bloody lunatic lol.

 

As for the Chantry as a whole... I've mixed feelings about it. They are not completely useless or a complete waste of an organization. Religion is important to most people after all. Still, they have been enablers of anti-mage behaviors for centuries! So while I don't think they need to be completely wiped out, I do think they need to be seriously sorted out, made accountable for all their BS, and tell them exactly what they can and can't be meddling with. Muahahah! 

 

Bah, lol your one comment made me break my whole "I shall not get drawn in to forum discussions" rule! LMAO



#33
ianvillan

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@Vilegrim - Did I deny that the Chantry has done any of that?

Did I say that the Chantry were just a poor misunderstood organisation?

 

No.

 

It's done some stupid and horrible **** in the past, and probably will continue to do stupid and horrible **** into the future as well. But guess what? It's filled with people who aren't perfect, who do stupid and sometimes horrible ****.

Keep in mind that EVERY SINGLE exalted march occurred because of reports of Andrastian adherents being persecuted and forcibly converted. Andrastrianism views other religions as theological challenges NOT as attacks, but the other religions - that of the Elves, or the Qun - view Andrastrianism as an attack not a challenge.

 

It doesn't excuse the Chantry the bad things they have done but when compared to some of the other organisations in the universe, or in real life, they are fairly benign.

 

If they were Evil like some claim then they would have happily backed the templars in simply annulling ALL the circles, but they didnt.

 

@Sheryl Chee.

 

Love it. lol.

 

I don't want the Chantry exterminated and I think they can be a force for good in the world but Vilegrim is right in what he says about the Chantry.

 

The Chantry sent their Brothers into the Dales to forcibly convert the Elves and when the Elves refused they then sent in Templars with instructions to use force to help the Brothers in their mission. When the Elves thought back (their version of an exulted march that you supported and saw as justified.) the Chantry then declared an exulted march on the Elves and destroyed their city's wiped out all their culture and enslaved the Elves.

 

The Dwarves allowed an other Dwarf to preach about the Chantry in their city but after a riot broke out in which he was killed in, the Chantry then declares another exulted march against the Dwarves over this one person, but how many Dwarves have been persecuted and killed in Chantry lands with the Chantry not even caring about them.

 

The Chantry who are meant to be in charge of the circles allow abuses to happen in them and do nothing to stop them but punish mages for speaking out about them.

They will wipe out an entire circle killing every man woman and child for the actions of a few of the mages.  Also when the Templars cant be bothered to try to stop the ones causing the problems they would just call for the right of annulment and the Chantry will allow it.

 

The main reason the Chantry don't want to annul all the circles is because they know the mages are the main weapon they have against the Qun and without the mages they would loose to the Qunari. I believe If the Qun was totally eradicated and Tevinter was no more the Chantry would wipe out all mages because that is what their religious doctrine teaches them about mages. 


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#34
Elena

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Yeah, I agree with you there Ian. 

 

Perhaps, in the future a better solution or option to "manage" the Mages will come about. I know that the Chantry has always been the one in charge of managing the Mages through the Templars but that clearly has been a constantly declining method. The Chantry has it's good points, perhaps, the Chantry should be left to deal with Religion, they seem to be best at that. 

 

Perhaps a different Order, NOT controlled by the Chantry should be made in charge of Mages. An Order like the Wardens, they are allowed to recruit and their sole purpose is supposed to be ending Blights and killing Darkspawn and Archdemons. In the LONG history of the Grey Warden Order, there have been very very few cases when the Wardens went outside their calling and got themselves involved in something they were not meant to, politics and the such. That's a very long history of the Order successfully sticking to its main calling. They are in essence beholden to none, they aren't under anyone's control and for the most part take care and caution when using the right of conscription. 

 

Now, of course, the Grey Warden Order is well... much different than say an Order built to manage Mages. Two very different causes. But, if an order could be built, with specific boundaries and standards as to how to manage Mages, what's acceptable for them to do in case Mages go... bad and consequences should anyone in the Order go too far and abuse innocent Mages well... perhaps an Order like that could work better.

 

That being said though, this whole thing with Mages needs to be rethought and redone. I don't really think forcing Mages into a Circle and keeping them there for life and belittling them is the right course of action either. Having children torn from their families at such a tender age to most likely hardly ever see them again is...unnatural and too drastic. I do think Mages should be allowed more freedoms. 

 

Perhaps, Mage children could be allowed to remain with their families, and Magic schools could be started in major cities and what not, so as to train young Mages to control their power, how not to prey to Demons and the like. Circles could be instead of prisons (cuz lets face it, that's what they really are) they could be sort of Schools of higher learning, open to those mages that willingly chose to attend higher education in magic.

 

Perhaps, for the sake of being on the safe side, Phylacteries should still be required of every Mage. In case they ever turn bad, they can in fact be hunted down by this means. There would be a set of rules/laws in this regard of course. While I'm no fan of Blood Magic or consorting with Demons, I'm not sure a death penalty should be the first and only option to every Mage that goes this way. 

 

I'm not a fan of the right of tranquility either, but perhaps, it could be an alternative to say a death penalty. To be chosen freely by the mage that was sentenced, death or become Tranquil. Though I am not sure who in their right mind would choose to become Tranquil. Some may think it a better option than being killed altogether. 

 

Whether we like it or not, Magic itself is neither good or bad. Its what people chose do do with it that determines it being good or bad. Like with most any other things in life Magic has good and bad to it. I'd like to believe that if given the right education, love, family and support the majority of Mages would end up good instead of bad. There will always be those that turn out bad unfortunately, and its for that reason that 100% Mage freedom is probably not wise. But I do think there can be a middle ground. Where Mages can be allowed to chose where to live, where to study, to remain with their families and what not.

 

However, I'm not sure that the Chantry is the best option for managing Mages. They have centuries of failing at it. They should stick to religion and leave Mage management to others.

 

That aside, does it make me a bad person that i sort of LIKE the Qunari?  :huh:


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#35
PSUHammer

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I don't see this thread lasting long...



#36
Dabrikishaw

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We will not be able to destroy the Chantry. I suspect however, that we can ****** in it's general direction.



#37
Jedi Master of Orion

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I don't want the Chantry exterminated and I think they can be a force for good in the world but Vilegrim is right in what he says about the Chantry.

 

The Chantry sent their Brothers into the Dales to forcibly convert the Elves and when the Elves refused they then sent in Templars with instructions to use force to help the Brothers in their mission. When the Elves thought back (their version of an exulted march that you supported and saw as justified.) the Chantry then declared an exulted march on the Elves and destroyed their city's wiped out all their culture and enslaved the Elves.

 

The Dwarves allowed an other Dwarf to preach about the Chantry in their city but after a riot broke out in which he was killed in, the Chantry then declares another exulted march against the Dwarves over this one person, but how many Dwarves have been persecuted and killed in Chantry lands with the Chantry not even caring about them.

 

The Chantry who are meant to be in charge of the circles allow abuses to happen in them and do nothing to stop them but punish mages for speaking out about them.

They will wipe out an entire circle killing every man woman and child for the actions of a few of the mages.  Also when the Templars cant be bothered to try to stop the ones causing the problems they would just call for the right of annulment and the Chantry will allow it.

 

The main reason the Chantry don't want to annul all the circles is because they know the mages are the main weapon they have against the Qun and without the mages they would loose to the Qunari. I believe If the Qun was totally eradicated and Tevinter was no more the Chantry would wipe out all mages because that is what their religious doctrine teaches them about mages. 

 

Defenseless missionaries by definition cannot convert anyone by force. And they didn't send templars in to Dales until after the war started. Also the Chantry never enslaved the elves. The city elf codex about the Fall of the Dales says "We were not enslaved as we were in ages past."

 

Also the "riot" in Orzammar where Brother Burkle was killed was a peaceful protest that was being staged because Orzammar was "severely restricting" the rights of Andrastian worshipers. And there was no Exalted March. The epilogue says the Chantry considered an Exalted March. And no there is no institutionalized persecution of surface dwarves in Chantry lands. There is in dwarven lands though, because the castless are probably among the most brutally abused minority in Thedas. They are certainly worse off than City Elves or Circle mages. They literally have no rights at all and are considered living garbage. And they live in such poverty that Sigrun even described an alienage as "rather nice".

 

Also the Right of Annulment is supposed to be used as a last resort. It is not a common nor is it something the templars are constantly trying to invoke. Chantry  doctrine is that mages are dangerous and that magic must not rule over man. Nowhere does it say they should all be killed. They would not be killed if they weren't useful weapons against the Qunari. The Qunari only arrived in Thedas in 6:30 Steel. The Circle System existed for over 5 centuries before the Chantry ever heard about the Qunari. Plus, the Chantry would probably have survived the Qunari war without mages. The Qunari advance was halted before the Chantry called the Exalted March and used mages to help liberate conquered territory.


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#38
Vilegrim

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"Look! It's that anti-Andrastian fellow, torturing my children and putting my neighbors to the sword and forcing me to give up my faith! I'm terrified for my life, so he must be right!

 

Oh, well! Rationality and science for all!"

 

<_<

 

 

No, the old gods for all. :D  Never said I wanted to be atheist...  al haliu lilith f'tangh 'fganth Chtulu!  Hail Eris

Hail Discordia!



#39
ianvillan

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Defenseless missionaries by definition cannot convert anyone by force. And they didn't send templars in to Dales until after the war started. Also the Chantry never enslaved the elves. The city elf codex about the Fall of the Dales says "We were not enslaved as we were in ages past."

 

Also the "riot" in Orzammar where Brother Burkle was killed was a peaceful protest that was being staged because Orzammar was "severely restricting" the rights of Andrastian worshipers. And there was no Exalted March. The epilogue says the Chantry considered an Exalted March. And no there is no institutionalized persecution of surface dwarves in Chantry lands. There is in dwarven lands though, because the castless are probably among the most brutally abused minority in Thedas. They are certainly worse off than City Elves or Circle mages. They literally have no rights at all and are considered living garbage. And they live in such poverty that Sigrun even described an alienage as "rather nice".

 

Also the Right of Annulment is supposed to be used as a last resort. It is not a common nor is it something the templars are constantly trying to invoke. Chantry  doctrine is that mages are dangerous and that magic must not rule over man. Nowhere does it say they should all be killed. They would not be killed if they weren't useful weapons against the Qunari. The Qunari only arrived in Thedas in 6:30 Steel. The Circle System existed for over 5 centuries before the Chantry ever heard about the Qunari. Plus, the Chantry would probably have survived the Qunari war without mages. The Qunari advance was halted before the Chantry called the Exalted March and used mages to help liberate conquered territory.

 

The missionaries that the Chantry sent were turned away from the Dales so the Chantry then sent Templars for the express reason of making sure the missionaries can get into the Dales and go where ever they want, they did this before the war started and it showed they cared nothing for the Elven sovereignty and were willing to kill to force their beliefs on others.

 

The riot was because the Dwarves were restricting the rights of the tiny Andrastian minority, but they were still allowing them in Orzammar which is more then the Chantry would ever do and are allowing the missionaries to preach but the Chantry wanted to do what ever they wanted and ignore another races laws.

 

The Chantry does not allow missionaries from other religions in their lands and kills the ones that do come. The Chantry has been the biggest bully on the playground for a long time but now a bigger bully is coming  along (the Qunari)  and they are using the same tactics that the Chantry have used in the past i.e. sending forces to allow missionaries to go where they want ignoring the countries wishes, and forming their own exulted march when their missionary force was stopped and the Chantry now is in the position of the Elves with their homelands being invaded because of an other religion yet they would still do the same thing to another race if they could.

 

The castless are badly treated and have little rights yes but the Elves are treated much worse Thousands are forced into spaces fit for a few hundred, they are starved, abused and murdered freely with no rights to complain or try to stop it from happening. The Dalish are classed as vermin and are chased off Chantry land and killed if they refuse to leave, the Chantry wipes out any past Elven culture to keep the Elves where they are.

 

The right of Annulment has become increasingly common and the Templars have invoked it for a lot of reasons and they have not been punished for the murders of every Man, Woman and Child in the circle because they did not want to do their jobs but just wanted to do what ever they wanted to Mages with the Chantry permission. The Chantry have always viewed the Mages as weapons be it against Tevinter or the Qunari or the Dwarves.

 

The Qunari and the Chantry say it was the Mages that stopped the Qunari advance and the mages were the force the Qunari feared and did not know how to deal with.



#40
Maugrim

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"The cause of the conflict that resulting in the destruction of the Dales is disputed. The Dalish claim it was simple racial and religious persecution, saying templars invaded their kingdom when they kicked out Chantry missionaries. Chantry sources describe tensions building over the years as the elves became increasingly isolationist: The Dales barred all trade or discourse beyond their borders and only attracted greater ire when they refused to aid the human kingdoms during the Second Blight. There were rumors in the bordering Orlesian lands of the elves kidnapping humans to sacrifice to their gods and tensions reached a head with an elven attack on the village of Red Crossing.[2]

The Exalted March was called only after the elves made serious gains and sacked the Orlesian capital of Val Royeaux."

 

That was from from the wiki.

 

Ya'll fooling yourselves if you think any conflict is black and white enough to say one side or the other was  completely free from blame.  It's doesn't take a psychic to know that both sides contributed to the conflicts and that the facts lay somewhere between both sides of the truth.  That why my Wardens/Shep/Hawkes are basically just conflict mediators/ babysitters that send the lil brats to their corners and tell them to stop fighting.


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#41
ianvillan

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I agree there are two sides to the story and the Elves have some blame in the conflict as well. Yet the Chantry don't accept any blame for what happened and they see the Elves as heathens and therefore they were justified in everything they did, they even see themselves as helping the Elves by enslaving them.

 

The Chantry themselves said they sent missionaries into the Dales to convert they population and that when the missionaries were turned away they sent Templars with instructions to make sure they were allowed in. This happened before the Elves attacked red crossing yet the Chantry don't see this as an act of aggression or an invasion of the Dales they see it as justified.

 

If I was the Elves and saw the Chantry did not value any of our laws or customs and saw us as heathens I too might become more isolationist and cut trade with them because they have no intention of treating us equally.



#42
Guest_simfamUP_*

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"Look! It's that anti-Andrastian fellow, torturing my children and putting my neighbors to the sword and forcing me to give up my faith! I'm terrified for my life, so he must be right!

 

Oh, well! Rationality and science for all!"

 

<_<

 

tumblr_mwl3vmVxfG1t0rksyo1_400.gif

 

LAYING DOWN THE LAAAOOWWW BIOWARE STYLE!


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#43
Todd23

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Saw Sheryl's username on the new posts list and figured I have to check it out, she never disappoints.

And why is it ever topic that beings "Will we be able to xx" really "Will Bioware allow our PC's to act like total idiots?"

Especially since the answer is usually yes to a point.

Because questions of reason don't get answered here.

#44
Wulfram

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Why would you want to destroy the most powerful tool for social engineering and political control in Thedas?  Far better to seize it.



#45
ElitePinecone

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The only solution is the eradication of the Andrastarian taint, using punishments so terrible no one will dare follow that sick creed again.


jesus christ bsn
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#46
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I'm with wulf on this tbh, i want the option to oppose it, i want the option to support it an i want the option to use it for my benefit, more options are always welcome because it adds replay-ability and replay-ability for me is more important than most things in a Bioware game.

 

Opposing something does not mean its destruction and in this case nor should it be, the game is called Dragon Age: Inquisition not The Fugitive, destroying the Chantry would have nigh every nation in Thedas after you and would put you back into a situation much akin to a mage hawke running around spamming spells in kirkwall, something like destroying the chantry would in my book need/require the story to be built up around it not just have it as an off the cuff option


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#47
Vilegrim

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"Look! It's that anti-Andrastian fellow, torturing my children and putting my neighbors to the sword and forcing me to give up my faith! I'm terrified for my life, so he must be right!

 

Oh, well! Rationality and science for all!"

 

<_<

 

 

turn about is fair play.  Chantry has done and is doing that.  Victory is all that matters.



#48
Lucy Glitter

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"That blind source of evil in Thedas"

 

How much you guys wanna bet that this erroneous opinion comes from the whole "I think the Chantry is the EXACT SAME THING as the Catholic Church" thing? And not from any real in game lore or evidence?

 

Honestly if you want to oppose the Chantry for role play purposes (cos this is an RPG duh) because your character dislikes the Chantry for whatever reason, then great go ahead and ask the question. Petition for the option. But calling the Chantry which is a relatively benign organisation on the whole and is NOT THE CATHOLIC CHURCH Evil is hyperbolic at best, and stupid at worst.

 

I find myself unsurprised. Disappointed but unsurprised.

 

Agreed. Chantry in-game is pretty varied. I liked Grand Cleric Elthina but hated Mother Petrice. Liked Mother Hannah but hated the Lothering Revered Mother. The chant and the story of Andraste? Awesome. 

 

Agreed with this 100% I mean obviously the lore has a lot of real-world counterparts but... it's... not.. uhhhhh.

 

edit: oh god it's turning into one of those threads. Guys, shush up and have a sip of tea. It's not real life.


Modifié par Lucy_Glitter, 17 mai 2014 - 10:51 .

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#49
The Elder King

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@ianvillain: The elves don't accept that they have fault in the Dales fall as well. Both sides accuse the other other of being at fault for what happened. The only difference is that the Chantry won, and the elves lost (and even if I'm pro-elf, I doubt that the elves' solution in case of victory would've been more pacific than the Chantry one).
As for the casteless-elves comparison, I disagree. The casteless (unless Bhelen is on the throne, and if Bioware didn't change the slide), have NO rights in Orzammar. They aren't people for the dwarves, they're nothing. Everyone can kill as much casteless they want.

#50
ianvillan

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@ianvillain: The elves don't accept that they have fault in the Dales fall as well. Both sides accuse the other other of being at fault for what happened. The only difference is that the Chantry won, and the elves lost (and even if I'm pro-elf, I doubt that the elves' solution in case of victory would've been more pacific than the Chantry one).
As for the casteless-elves comparison, I disagree. The casteless (unless Bhelen is on the throne, and if Bioware didn't change the slide), have NO rights in Orzammar. They aren't people for the dwarves, they're nothing. Everyone can kill as much casteless they want.

 

I admit the Elves don't accept fault for what happened either and that if the Elves won they probably would of done the same as the Chantry. What I am arguing about is when people say the Chantry is benign and ignore or forgive them for the things they do, some even go and put all the blame on the victims and treat the Chantry as innocent.

 

I believe the Chantry can be a force for good in the world but as it is now and has been in the past I think they are a hateful organisation and would need to be broken down fully and rebuilt in to a better Chantry.